Quantcast Panasonic DMR-ES10 does not turn on, identify bad caps? - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
06-23-2019, 06:20 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Hi

So sadly my Panasonic DMR-ES10 suddenly stopped turning on, just as I was about to really start digitizing some tapes using that and my Sony EV-T2. It had been standing still for a while, the Panasonic.

I took the thing apart and looked at the board. I'm by no means any good at electronic repairs so I'm not an expert of identifying faulty components. There's some other threads with the same issue on this model and I even found a nice video from a decade ago where a guy shows how he fixed it on his ES10 but his board seems to be different (maybe because his is a US version and mines for the EU market?)

I took a couple of pics:
https://i.imgur.com/G8cW26u.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/P1Aelyl.jpg

One that stands out to me is the C1707. Its bulging a bit, but is it enough to assume its the culprit? (if the problem is infact even one of the caps)... and if so, can I just buy something like this to replace it with?

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  #2  
06-23-2019, 11:46 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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The C1707 looks like it's bulging yeah. That one, and the other cap of the same type had started leaking on my ES10 as you can see in this picture: caps.jpg.
It powered up fine, but I replaced them anyhow, as leaking caps are bound to cause problems.

I replaced them with panasonic caps like these: EEUFK0J681. Not sure if I would trust aliexpress with capacitors, it's not like caps cost much in any case.

On mine the S-Video inputs don't have color, and two of the stereo audio RCA jacks (don't remember if it was in or output) at the back didn't work. I suspect the bad caps may have resulted in some damage to the A/D chip. Someone at VH had the same issue with S-Video on the ES15 and in their case they had it confirmed with a serviceperson that the chip was bad.


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  #3  
07-21-2019, 07:30 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Bumping this thread because I can't be the only one with this question...is there a service that will re-cap these machines (or even a knowledgeable fellow DigitalFAQer)? I also have an ES-10 with bad caps that I'd like re-capped.
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  #4  
07-22-2019, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
Bumping this thread because I can't be the only one with this question...is there a service that will re-cap these machines (or even a knowledgeable fellow DigitalFAQer)? I also have an ES-10 with bad caps that I'd like re-capped.
Let me ask somebody here. He's currently recapping my PAL ES15, to attempt a fix. If he agrees to repair this, he'll either post here, or PM you.

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  #5  
07-22-2019, 07:12 PM
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PAL
DMR-ES10EB (UK model)

Most caps go for pennies on the dollar, and if you buy direct through Mouser or Digi-Key you can select the brands you use. I prefer Rubycon.. but some people think Nichicon is good enough.

"Last column is current Digi-Key part number" for the caps for the British ES10, the US model will have different caps and values.. but same idea.

Much of the info is from the original Panasonic Schematics and Parts Lists in the Service Manuals. The manuals do recommend if you find a value different on the actual board, to replace with the same value as on the board, in case of design changes after the service manual was printed.

All I did was hunt up Digi-Key part numbers for the originals or found equivalent values and voltage ratings or higher voltage ratings. Generally its best to get out a micrometer and make sure the replacement will "fit" into the same space as the original. In some recorders the clearance or "headroom" is limited by things bolted directly on top of the power supply, like hard drive carriers. This becomes a problem when replacing with a higher voltage, or newer part since they tend to change dimensional shape, often getting skinnier and taller.

The ES10 however is very open. Its chassis was obviously the prototype for combo DVD and HDD recorders that followed.. so its got the most wide open spaces inside the case of any recorder I have ever seen.

Be (very very Very) careful of static discharge around the inputs to this recorder. The LV7107 chip on the underside of the mainboard is reportedly the most likely to be damaged over time by random power surges or static discharge into the input and output connectors. Reports on places like the British AVSForum report the video going out one at a time for one port or all at once on all ports, and then have sound but no video output.. or video with no sound output. This single chip does double duty as the central a/v crossbar for the entire recorder. The chip is no longer made, but is a 100 pin smd package glued to the mainboard and practically impossible to replace.. although there is one place in Britain which says they will replace it for you for a price.

I would say the UK model is more vulnerable to damage to the input/output ports due to their SCART connector ports.. they carry a high voltage charge and generally its recommended to (not) connect or disconnect them while power is applied to either the recorder or the device being connected. But not everyone follows that rule.. and trouble occurs. Also for some reason lightning and static discharge seems to be more common there, than in many places in the US where its much more humid year round. The US model has RCA cinch connectors (phono connectors) which are less likely to cause the same problems.. they are also lower voltage.. but for sure be careful of static discharge in all situations!

I have heard through owners of the US model that even the US/North American versions develop input problems over time. The descriptions "sound to me like" the recorders received static damage to the port. But to others they said they thought it was slowly dying inputs capacitors. Sometimes you can switch to using alternative ports to get around the problem. But once the internals of the switch chip is damaged its not going to "heal". Other than switching out the mainboard there really isn't much that can be done.

The other component that can die is the digitizing board. But that does not happen often, its well protected by the sacrificial a/v crossbar chip. And its easy to see if the power supply is good and the recorder doesn't run through its startup routines or respond to the faceplate switches or remote.. then its probably the digitizing board.

If you do buy through Digi-Key, during checkout manually "choose" the First Class mail option if your not in a hurry, it costs less and usually gets there just as fast.. but its not the default shipping option. Most small count orders fit in a small envelope so First Class shipping is more than adequate. Just the same however, Digit-Key often ships even small quantities in a sturdy rigid box.

Code:
B-7    C1143    ECEC2GG680FZ    400V    68U    1189-3149-ND
D-6    C1150    EEUFM1V680B       35V    68U    1189-1303-ND
C-5    C1270    F2A1C152A626      16V    1500U    1189-1152-ND
C-4    C1271    F2A1C152A626      16V    1500U    1189-1152-ND
C-3    C1272    F2A1C102A625      16V    1000U    1189-1147-ND
D-2    C1273    EEUFM1C121B       16V    120U    1189-2201-ND
B-3    C1400    EEUFM1E221B       25V    220U    P19705CT-ND
B-2    C1406    F2A0J681A550     6.3V    680U    1189-3597-ND
D-3    C1407    F2A1A2210063      10V    220U    1189-3611-ND
B-5    C1601    EEUFM1E221B       25V    220U    P19705CT-ND
B-4    C1607    F2A1A681A539     10V    680U    1189-1718-ND
C-3    C1701    EEUFM1E221B      25V    220U    P19705CT-ND
C-2    C1707    F2A0J681A550    6.3V    680U    1189-3597-ND
B-5    C1800    F2A1E4700048     25V    47U    1189-4172-ND
These are only the electrolytic radial and one electrolytic snap-on capacitors. They have tinned leads so aren't that hard to remove and replace. There are disc, tantalum and film capacitors.. but by their very nature are less likely to go bad.

You can't really use an ESR meter (in-circuit) to test whether they are bad or not.. unless they have totally shorted.. but then they probably look like an alien "chest burster" got it if they shorted completely and the meter would be a bit like asking Bones to say "Its Dead Jim" after the fact.

You can use an ESR meter "postmortem" to check the cap after its removed and replaced.. but I don't think thats very predictive of what will happen next.. all of these caps are old and could go at any time.

I don't have an ESR meter and find its cheaper and faster to just replace them all.

Digi-Key ships the caps in nice blue plastic baggies which I generally take inventory and attach a panasonic assigned CXXXX label with a slip of masking tape and a marker before starting. That way when I remove one and replace it the old one goes into the bag the new one came out of.. and when I'm done I know it.

The phenolic circuit board has labels for the + and - sides of the caps which helps when inserting the new ones so you don't get the + or - side mixed up. You can't see the board markings until you've removed the old cap, but they are there on top underneath the cap so when you insert the leads you can see the correct polarity.

Lastily.. its very sad to think these may end up in landfills since their digitizer boards could still be viable and its only the mainboard switch chip that makes them unusable. Consider selling them for parts if you can't get them working again. Their case, face plates, power supplies.. could still be used to repair other similar recorders with no hope of repair without a donor for parts.

Last edited by jwillis84; 07-22-2019 at 08:10 PM.
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  #6  
07-23-2019, 06:18 AM
enois enois is offline
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I had same problem, take a look here:

Panasonic DMR-ES10 (PAL) no video output?

seems the same version of power supply PCB board as the mine es-10.

S1050386.jpg


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  #7  
07-23-2019, 07:18 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
Be (very very Very) careful of static discharge around the inputs to this recorder. The LV7107 chip on the underside of the mainboard is reportedly the most likely to be damaged over time by random power surges or static discharge into the input and output connectors. Reports on places like the British AVSForum report the video going out one at a time for one port or all at once on all ports, and then have sound but no video output.. or video with no sound output. This single chip does double duty as the central a/v crossbar for the entire recorder. The chip is no longer made, but is a 100 pin smd package glued to the mainboard and practically impossible to replace.. although there is one place in Britain which says they will replace it for you for a price.
It seems it's an issue with panasonic dvd-recorders in general. AVSforum has a bunch of theads on bad caps on the newer and older models too, like the E50, or the EX77. I got a dead EH57 with a bad PS cap and diode I'm going to see if I can fix.
Some of the capacitor batches (mostly ELNA caps from what I've seen?) must have been bad.

Mine as mentioned has no chroma on S-Video input and one of the audio outputs is bad, I was lead to believe it would be the LV7107 chip, but I don't know if bad caps could cause it too. Already replaced the two obviously bad ones in the power supply, rest look fine, but I haven't tested them.

The caps in these machines are almost all normal (not SMD) capacitors, so they are not terribly difficult to replace with simple soldering tools, even for an electronics novice like me. Replacing a chip is on a bit of another level though.
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  #8  
07-23-2019, 01:59 PM
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Caps generally reject noise and interference, but when they short then you get no signal. A partial signal "might" be a bad cap, but its hard to say with no signal.. it could be a shorted cap (kind of rare) or a damaged solid state junction in the chip acting as a switch. If (all) of the ports, video or audio are dead.. then its more likely one side or the other of the chip is dead. The two sides being audio and video.

On the power supply alone I've spotted quite a few smd capacitors smaller than a pin head.. some even between the radial leads of a larger cap. They can be hard to see without a magnifying glass. Be careful if your soldering you don't desolder them or swamp them with solder while replacing the larger caps you can see.

I'm not willing to totally give up until I can get a working unit of the exact same model and swap components to determine the real problem.

There are three main areas:

1. power supply
2. digitizer board
3. mainboard

I'm pretty confident the problem I have at the moment is the mainboard.. but it could be a dc-dc converter on the power supply.. those are surface mount as well.. but just large enough that if I find its worth hunting one of those down I could replace it.

The E85H was known to have three failure modes on the power supply; caps, regulator, dc-dc converter and more recently a guy in Houston, Texas nailed a problem to a dc-dc converter and restored his unit to working order. Details were more elaborate in a repair shop thread however. Most people give up after the caps.. but I'm curious if the regulator and dc-dc converter problems are starting to become more common as the wall outlet voltages in North America have risen 15% in the last ten years.

I wound up myself using a step-down transformer deliberately to cool off the hot voltage coming from the wall where I live.

Understand the voltage is still just within tolerance.. but increasingly to the upper edge.. and Power Companies defend this quite a bit. I suspect because the cost of transformers to step down the voltage all the way to 110 or 115 is higher than allowing them to "rise" to a few volts more.. its an economics game. But power supplies really weren't meant to dump that excess voltage into heat.. it stresses their thermal envelope and shortens their life. For older power supplies, not good. .. so yeah.. I'm a "tinfoil hat" power supply conspiracy theory guy.
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  #9  
07-25-2019, 12:12 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Let me ask somebody here. He's currently recapping my PAL ES15, to attempt a fix. If he agrees to repair this, he'll either post here, or PM you.
I'd really appreciate it!
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  #10  
07-31-2019, 06:23 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Let me ask somebody here. He's currently recapping my PAL ES15, to attempt a fix. If he agrees to repair this, he'll either post here, or PM you.
I got a bit lazy and decided to just buy another ES10. I also came across ES15 and was wondering if it was less prone to this bad caps issue. Judging from your post, it would seem like theres no difference, or?
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07-31-2019, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kocane View Post
was wondering if it was less prone to this bad caps issue. Judging from your post, it would seem like theres no difference, or?
I've not noticed any difference.

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  #12  
08-05-2019, 11:59 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Got my 'new' nice DMR-ES10 (in black this time - sleek!). Hook it up and it doesn't turn on but makes a nice screeching sound. I disassemble it and have a look at the capasitors: https://i.imgur.com/TDhsNDa.jpg. That's nice.

I'll contact seller but I'm sure he'll say it was fine when he sent it. What's the chance of it dying under transfer? What absolute garbage components this otherwise nice DVD player is made of. But at least it will be easier to identify the bad caps this time.
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  #13  
08-05-2019, 04:21 PM
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That's one leaky capacitor, stuff even looks dried on top.
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  #14  
08-06-2019, 12:09 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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If you bought it on eBay their refund/return policy greatly benefits the buyer. You more than likely will get your money back.
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08-07-2019, 07:22 AM
enois enois is offline
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I solved in my ES10 (mine was totally dead) replacing the following capacitors:

C1270 - 1500μF
C1271 - 1500μF
C1272 - 1500μF
C1406 - 680μF
C1607 - 680μF
C1707 - 680μF

some with leak and some other no, but measured with a capacitor-tester all the above results in high ESR value.

P.S. They was all ELNA capacitors.
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  #16  
08-07-2019, 09:22 AM
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I forget the story with ELNA, the name is a front for something else.. but its not for the Panasonic capacitors division.. which is weird.

Something about the 'borrowed' formula for the Electrolytic was not heat stable and bubbled or vaporized.. leading to burst caps. The failure mode was not consistent and generally did not show up in Japan for testing because their voltage standards are tighter and lower than in North America. Basically it was easy to run a scam since N.A. was loose with its standards and has a wider range in allowed voltages. Ended up biting Panasonic.. they save money, N.A. saves money.. consumer pays. I'm not saying any of it was "right" just that it was well understood after the fact.
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08-07-2019, 05:10 PM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
If you bought it on eBay their refund/return policy greatly benefits the buyer. You more than likely will get your money back.
Was on eBay Kleinanziegen though, which does not have such policies. All I got was a "es tut mir leid".

I'll try and use the board from my silver ES10, recap the suspected bad cap (as shown in the OP) and put the board in the black ES10.
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03-02-2020, 05:02 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Did he recap the main board as well as the power supply assembly, or just one and not the other? My ES10 is at maccaps for repair with known bad caps on the power supply assembly. Charles is also recommending a recap of the main board as well, but none look bad. Would it be worth it getting the main board recapped, or should I just have it done on the power supply assembly?
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03-02-2020, 05:08 PM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
Did he recap the main board as well as the power supply assembly, or just one and not the other? My ES10 is at maccaps for repair with known bad caps on the power supply assembly. Charles is also recommending a recap of the main board as well, but none look bad. Would it be worth it getting the main board recapped, or if I should just have it done on the power supply assembly?
After my previous post I did recap it and it was working great again :-) now in a black shell.
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03-02-2020, 05:36 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kocane View Post
After my previous post I did recap it and it was working great again :-) now in a black shell.
The whole board or just the power supply assembly?
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