Quantcast My first setup: frame TBC, capture card? - digitalFAQ Forum
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09-23-2019, 05:33 AM
Jessle723 Jessle723 is offline
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Hey guys i am trying to put together my first set up to digitize my family's vhs tapes. They are all low quality tapes but i'm trying to digitize them the best that i can. I purchased a JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS and i wanted to find a USB capture card to hook up to my laptop. After doing lots of reading on the forums it seems that its the general consensus to use legacy hardware on a windows XP computer. Fortunately i do have an old PC that should meet the required specs. I'm still not sure which AIW card to go with though. I found an 8500DV would this be a recommended capture card? I can't seem to find a forum post comparing capture cards. I'm also confused about what type of recommended sound card i should go with and how that would be configured. I thought the audio jacks would go right into the purple box. But i know the one guide was saying to buy a sound card and to not use the computers on board sound card. The last thing that i would love some clarification on is if i can use a full frame sync TBC. I was looking at purchasing the datavideo-1000. Would this tbc world well with the VCR i purchased? I know that you can't turn off the TBC on the VCR so i'm not sure if you can run two TBCs at the same time.
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  #2  
09-23-2019, 10:57 AM
bar72 bar72 is offline
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ATI All-In-Wonder AGP Cards are regarded as the best for quality.

Here's the Cards you want, iirc:

AGP: (Rage Theatre chipset)

ATI All-in-Wonder 128 Pro
ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon (7200)
ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon 7500
ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon 8500 / AIW 8500 DV

AGP: (Theatre 200 chipset)

ATI All-in-Wonder 9000
ATI All-in-Wonder 9200
ATI All-in-Wonder 9600 / AIW 9600 XT / AIW 9600 Pro
All-in-Wonder 9700 Pro (PAL)
All-in-Wonder 9800 Pro
ATI All-In-Wonder 2006 Edition AGP8x

PCI: (Rage Theatre chipset)

ATI All-in-Wonder VE Radeon 7500

PCI Express: (Theatre 200 chipset)

ATI All-In-Wonder 2006 Edition PCI-E
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X600 Pro
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X800 XL
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X1800 XL
ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon X1900

Have a look here:

ATI All In Wonder Hacks, Drivers, Codecs and MMC

if you've got access to an 8500dv then go for it, I'm no expert but any of the above with the registry hacks should get you where you wanna be

Last edited by bar72; 09-23-2019 at 11:02 AM. Reason: added card info
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09-23-2019, 12:55 PM
msgohan msgohan is online now
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With the D-VHS models, the only advantage of an external TBC should be Macrovision removal. Was gonna link a NJRoadfan post but it didn't copy properly and Ive run out of time atm.
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09-23-2019, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
They are all low quality tapes but i'm trying to digitize them the best that i can.
If they were recorded at slow speeds like LP, SLP then a JVC may not be the best VCR to play them back on.. JVC were best for high-speed EP recorded tapes made on a JVC VCR. One of the recommended Panasonics or Mitsubishis may be better with an SLP tape.

Quote:
After doing lots of reading on the forums it seems that its the general consensus to use legacy hardware on a windows XP computer.
Yes but only on XP SP2

You (may) have to install XP SP1 in order to install the software that comes with your capture card "first" then apply the Service Pack 2 "after" those drivers and software are installed to get the system in an optimal configuration. Be sure to install a (separate) hard drive just for capturing video, the operating system hardware will be too fragmented and busy with memory page swapping to handle storing the video over a long recording session.

Quote:
I'm still not sure which AIW card to go with though.
Any of the AGP cards with the Theater 200 chip, it has a 12 bit Input encoder which was far better than the normal 8 bit Input encoder that comes on even "modern" capture devices. That lets it discriminate the sync pulses better and enables better color and fine detail adjustments which are slightly out of spec in the Input signal before presenting the result to the digitizer.

Quote:
I found an 8500DV would this be a recommended capture card?
Not really, that card has the earlier Rage encoder chip which was not the Theater 200, it also had a reputation for being somewhat unstable.. possibly due to the Agere firewire chipset on the same card.. it added unnecessary complexity to the card that could lead to blue screens. And it weas really targeted at Windows 2000 not XP.

Quote:
I can't seem to find a forum post comparing capture cards.
They exist but are highly biased and controversial since people who own the cards are heavily invested emotionally in their cards. Some compare on the basis of screen caps, or occasionally video clips.. but they are always subject to the quality of the source and testing conditions. So objectivity is missing.

Quote:
I'm also confused about what type of recommended sound card i should go with and how that would be configured. I thought the audio jacks would go right into the purple box.
The 'purple box' is also called the "Barney Connector box" -- Barney the purple dinosaur, get it?

The purple box connectors route the audio through the card and right back out the back plane of the card to a 3.5 mm output jack.. which you "jumper" over to one of the inputs of your sound card.. the Line Input or the Mic depending on what you have.. or you plug it into your motherboard sound connectors. There are white "sound blaster audio" connectors on most video capture cards inside on the card itself if you have internal audio soundblaster connectors on your audio card.. with the proper cable you can avoid jumpering across the external backplanes. Theyare called "sound blaster audio" connectors because they first appeared on sound blaster sound cards.. and later sound cards adopted them as a defacto standard.

Quote:
But i know the one guide was saying to buy a sound card and to not use the computers on board sound card.
Yes

The tracings on the motherboard are too close to one another to avoid interference jumping from one trace to another. Some motherboards claim to "minimize" this.. but there are fundamental limits to the physical distance between tracings.. and shielding that are possible on a motherboard.

A separate discrete sound card "elevates" and isolates the sound tracings to a place far above the motherboard and can afford the cost and complexity to shield and filter out interference from the motherboard far below.. Where the sound card plugs into the computer.. the signals are all "digital" and there is far less opportunity to pickup and incorporate interference.. in fact its practically zero.. since where the sound card meets the motherboard the communications channels are all digital.

Quote:
The last thing that i would love some clarification on is if i can use a full frame sync TBC.
I was looking at purchasing the datavideo-1000.
A VCR doesn't really have a TBC, we call it a "line TBC" because it "sort of cleans up the signal".

So your VCR is essentially a "slinky machine" its a feedback servo loop that pushes and pulls the tape along, stretching and relaxing the tape.. which stretches and relaxes the video signal coming off the tape.. changing its "time base" from one moment to the next.. resulting in a stack of "uneven" lines on the video raster.. "edge jaggies" and "swimming ripples" from top to bottom.. a VCR with a "line TBC" digitizes and "measures" the length of a video lines its about to spit out.. and "resizes" that video line to the length (it should be) so all the lines in the stack are uniform.. like a carpenter.. "measure twice.. cut once.." that's all good.. but does [zero] to help with "frame sync".

A "frame TBC" does an entirely different job.

Weak signals coming off the tape may "miss" or delay the detection of a signal that indicates "start of the new frame" of video.. or worse confuse that sync signal with part of the first few lines of video.. creating what's called a "waving flag" of video lines at the top of the picture.. bad sync can also cause "up and down jitter" or "rolling".. this can also happen [in-between] half frames called "fields" of interlaced video and stagger lines across the same frame of video so it looks like a kind of double exposure with lines on top.

Any frame misalignment will be totally unacceptable.. and may also cause your video capture device to "throw away" that frame as [bad].. while also keeping sound samples for which there is no video.. so the video drifts out of sync with the audio.. and drives you crazy.

The datavideo-1000 is a very good frame sync TBC, and there are a few others.. but they are getting hard to find.. and cost a lot of money.. don't get sticker shock.. if you bought a JVC 40000 you probably won't be worried about the cost.. but most people try to get along without one at first.. then spend a bunch of time looking for one later.. if that's you.. set those (special tapes) aside for when you have a true frame sync TBC to revisit.. there will always be a few.. maybe a lot.

Macrovision (Copy protection from the 80s) "hides" in the frame sync signal.. a true frame sync TBC re-writes the frame sync signal.. and by definition it re-writes a standard spec.. frame sync signal.. it does not re-include the Macrovision signal.. so as a result.. its "left out" not by nefarious design.. not since its a "Stripper".. but simply because Macrovision is not a standard frame sync signal component.. so as a result.. a frame sync TBC will "omit" the Macrovision signal.. and generally enables what maybe should have been prevented from being copied.. copied.

Quote:
Would this tbc world well with the VCR i purchased?
I know that you can't turn off the TBC on the VCR so i'm not sure if you can run two TBCs at the same time.
It should.

Any frame sync TBC is going to only "improve" a signal coming from a VCR.

There are reports that occasionally a line TBC will interfere with a frame sync TBC or vice versa.. but I tend to think that's the "extra" stuff onboard a TBC.. like a distribution amplifier or degraded signal capacitors on the inputs. Its also possible the frame sync TBC power supply.. like an external transformer could be damaged and adding interference via a ground loop. -- for all of those situations it can be an advantage to have a VCR you could turn off its line TBC function in concert with turning off a frame sync TBC to discern the cause and effect.. but generally you can put the frame sync TBC inline or take it out of line to determine which is better and work with it that way.

Now can you get away without a frame sync TBC? Sure if the signal is really good.. and you don't have flagging or up and down jitter.. but there will be some tapes where you have that and will need it.

If you get sticker shock or can't find a frame sync TBC.. set those tapes aside and return to them later.

Last edited by jwillis84; 09-23-2019 at 02:00 PM.
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  #5  
09-23-2019, 04:19 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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Quote:
that card has the earlier Rage encoder chip which was not the Theater 200
I thought I read earler that the main difference between the Theater 200 and the previous one was offloading more from the CPU and not any difference quality wise? Or am I wrong?
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09-23-2019, 04:24 PM
keaton keaton is offline
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If you choose to get an AIW PCI Express video capture card, you will need one of the two variants of connectors that adapt the I/O pin on the input/output edge of the card to the purple box connector. The purple box doesn't connect directly to the card edge for PCIe.

See this post for visuals Black screen on AIW X600 Pro composite/svideo inputs? (You can read the whole thread if you want, but this is the post in that thread that summarized the resolution of the long journey to get a PCIe card working). I think it's been established that the X600 is one of if not the only card that has this different variant. I think most or all other PCIe cards use the other. But I cannot say that for sure, as I have only tried the X600. You may want to see if there's more on this on the forum, if you go this route. An advantage of the X600, is we had the official install disc posted on that thread. For most others, you have the different/smaller installer listed on the pinned ATI AIW driver thread for PCIe (ATI All In Wonder Hacks, Drivers, Codecs and MMC)

I learned the hard way when I bought an AIW X600 with a connector that was not compatible with that particular model. Fortunately, I found the other variant, which was the correct one for the X600. The cards can be easy and cheap to find, but they are useless without that additional connector. The purple connector box/cable are typically much easier to find than the aforementioned second I/O connector.

You will definitely be thankful for choosing to use an ATI Theatre 200 chipset based capture card. It's the only way to fly! Seriously, there are other options mentioned on the board that are acceptable (which I haven't tried), but if you go with these line of cards you can rest easy you have one of (if not) the best for the job.

Regarding what kind of player to use for EP tapes, I have found Panasonic to be much better. I know it is not considered fact on this board, it is mostly a difference of opinion on whether JVC SVHS smoothes out too much detail or if it's just removing noise. Certain Panasonic models are very highly regarded. But it depends on your budget. If money is not an object, you can get a refurbished Panasonic AG-1980 from https://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/ (I think the last place still selling them that is endorsed by this forum). I will say that I've found my non-SVHS Panasonic PV-4561 preserved more details than a SVHS JVC I got that is highly reputable on this forum. I concluded this once I captured an EP video with a pinstriped suit where detail was preserved with this composite only player (which goes for less than $100), compared to a $3XX dollar JVC SVHS that pretty much removed all the pinstripe detail. Panasonics from 1995/6 in the PV-45XX and 46XX line, some of which are SVHS but without builtin TBC, are considered by some to be a much cheaper alternative to the Panasonic AG-1970 or 1980. I have both, and the 1980 is still the king, but I was surprised at how much you can get out of a PV-45XX or 46XX for the price and supplement it with say a Panasonic ES-10 or 15 passthru. Naturally you have to clean up the chroma noise in software, where as the Panasonic 1980 would do that in hardware. This is simply my experience, not a statement of fact on behalf of the board. I think what can be said safely is how one feels about the difference between JVC and Panasonic for longer play tape speeds is something most have to discover on their own. If you can find a cheaper Panasonic deck from the right era, provided it's not trashed, it might give you a preview of what the difference is, before you go further and get a high end model (which will look even better). Also, it is good to have more than one player, as each tape is a different experience. You cannot always predict which deck will play a tape best, unless you have the player that created the tape and it happens to be a highly regarded model for optimum video output quality.

Best of luck to you!
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  #7  
09-23-2019, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
I thought I read earler that the main difference between the Theater 200 and the previous one was offloading more from the CPU and not any difference quality wise? Or am I wrong?
The older Rage Theater chip comes on older hardware.

Not a lot of people (choose) to use it or have compared it with the Theater 200.

There is more information available about the Theater 200 for video capture, more experience.

Quote:
The purple box doesn't connect directly to the card edge for PCIe.
I didn't quite understand what you were describing at first.. and I have an ATI X600 Pro card.

It is true the PC back plane of the X600 Pro "card" has a special small "biscuit" connector with two rows of pins. These require a special breakout connector, often called the "Silver Stab" which turns those pins into four standard connectors:

1. FM radio RF
2. Broadcast TV RF
3. Purple "Barney style" connector
4. A Black "output" connector for a "Domino box" that further breaks things out so you can connect a TV

So you (do) need more than just the regular assortment of Barney connectors and various Monitor connectors.

The "Silver stab" for the "biscuit" connector is very unique for the X600 Pro and cannot be substituted. Like its cousin the ATI 9600 the card is useless without a complete set of cables which often get separated from the card when re-sold.. so buyer beware!

Its a little worse with the ATI 9600 however since you can't capture, and can't use the card as a video card without the breakout connector for that card. At least with the X600 you can use it as a regular video card even if you don't have the breakout connector to attach a Barney dock.

All that said, if your careful and get the ATI 9600 breakout connector.. its probably the most popular card for video capture. It had a long run and sits in a sweet spot for stability and for the AGP bus.

They re-released the ATI 9600 in the year 2006 after the acquisition of ATI by AMD calling it the AIW 2006 AGP edition with no further description. But the box brandishes "made with 9600 technology" it got a bump in memory capacity and perhaps a bump in its GPU.. but it was still all Theater 200 on the video capture side.

Last edited by jwillis84; 09-23-2019 at 05:59 PM.
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  #8  
09-24-2019, 06:09 AM
Jessle723 Jessle723 is offline
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Ugg i typed out a whole detailed post and it gave me an error message so trying to retype it out. But thank you so much for the very detailed help. I really appreciate it because there is so much to learn. I'm would love to get the X600 card but none of them come with connectors. If anyone could send me an eBay link to someone selling them it would be helpful. If not i may just go with the 9800 pro because it looks like i can plug the barney connector right into the card. Now i'm wondering if the computer i have even has a large enough case and the proper motherboard that i can even hook these card into. Here is the link to the specs of what i have. If i remember correctly the computer needs to be fixed but should be able to do that pretty cheap. I see older computers going for very cheap on ebay though. If you guys started from scratch what dedicated computer would you suggest for video capturing? A link would be very helpful. As far as a sound card would any sound blaster card that fits in the pc be good? I already spent a lot of money on this JVC so i don't think i can swing another VCR purchase and i said the VHS tapes were low quality but I don't even really know the difference. That was really more of an assumption i don't know what equipment was originally used or the speed. But i included an imgur album with some pictures of some of the vhs tapes i need to digitize and the back of the Windows xp computer i have. Also this JVC VCR i picked up is from ebay any suggestions on how to make sure it works properly? Should i clean the heads?
https://imgur.com/a/9Co9jS2
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09-24-2019, 09:05 AM
keaton keaton is offline
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It would seem based on the specs of the link you gave, a ATI Radeon Xpress 200 video card that comes with, that it is a PCI Express based video card, and so the motherboard would seem to be PCI Express based. A quick search didn't suggest that this video card had an AGP version. Of course, I cannot see the actual hardware. There should be plenty of images online to show what an AGP motherboard slot looks like compared to a PCI express slot (or the board connector pattern on the video card itself would also be different between the two types).

As most on this board would say about a VCR from ebay, you usually don't know what you'll get. It could be in alignment, or it could be quite out of alignment. There could be other things. You just don't know. If you just got a player, certainly try and find a tape that is the most expendable until you have confidence the player won't harm your more precious tapes. Certainly clean the heads. And as always stated here, DO NOT use Q-Tips on the video drum. Some would say using a piece of paper on video drum is OK. Those on this forum, usually recommend you get something very gentle, such as chamois swabs (often used to clean camera lenses, I believe). I got a bag of them from amazon. Maybe a local camera shop has them. If you've never done before, here's a recommended site's how-to on cleaning video heads. https://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/in...-head#cleaning You can get 91% isopropyl alcohol pretty easily, I would think, from a department or drug store. Some say get 99%, but that is not as easy to find.

The Turtle Beach Santa Cruz audio card is what is most popularly recommended on this forum, compared to a soundblaster. There may be some software for it on this forum somewhere. It all depends on what's good enough for you, but those with high standards recommend that card.
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09-24-2019, 10:07 AM
msgohan msgohan is online now
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Back when the AIW 9800 was still available new, I was struggling to use two different Soundblaster cards with it. They caused endless sync headaches.

Now I'm unclear on whether you actually have this eBay JVC D-VHS VCR in your hands and have confirmed it functions.
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09-24-2019, 10:23 AM
Jessle723 Jessle723 is offline
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Now I'm unclear on whether you actually have this eBay JVC D-VHS VCR in your hands and have confirmed it functions.
It's in the mail. I will receive it on Friday. I kinda just jumped on the deal and when it comes I would like to make sure it works properly. If not I could return it. I truly have a lot to learn and i probably should not have purchased anything until I was more informed but it is what it is.
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09-24-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
I'm would love to get the X600 card but none of them come with connectors.
That is very accurate, they are very rare.

The "Silver stab" for the x600 is not the same as the "Silver stab" for the x800, so don't be lulled into a false sense that you found what you need. They are two totally different breakout connectors. They are incompatible.

I don't know why this particular model is very rare, but (a) it was based on PCIexpress and (b) had "600" in the name.. recalling the 9600 popularity even back then.. people probably jumped on it, and still do because of the loose association because of the name similarities x600 vs 9600

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
If anyone could send me an eBay link to someone selling them it would be helpful.
I wouldn't bother hunting the x600 so much, its so rare that not a lot of people talk about them these days. Rather stick to the road well traveled. Find a 9600XT.. cable less if you have to and hang on to it for a while.. the special cables do show up from time to time.. and eventually you might get a whole 9600 kit with the cable and end up with a spare card.

I am certainly not "dinging" the x600 it occupies a unique position in the pantheon of Theater 200 cards.. perhaps a worthy heir apparent to the 9600. But its just hard to find with its connector set.

If you weren't in such a hurry I would urge patience.. I've been working on a PCI card with a Theater 200 chip that (might) be just as viable.. I'm still running tests.

But basically, for now you should expect.. in this Seasonal time of the year to pay about 75-100 for a complete kit of a good to decent 9000-9800 card.. stay in that range.. don't go diving into the 7000-8000 and mostly stay away from the Xseries since they tend to be power hogs and require much beefier power supplies and cooling cases.

The AGP issue is a valid one.. used boards are almost all that is left.. choose wisely.


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Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
If not i may just go with the 9800 pro because it looks like i can plug the barney connector right into the card.
A good choice.

The 9800 is certainly adequate, and a good capture system, simple connectors.. and if missing any you can generally find them on s-video.com its also not a power hog like some of the X-cards.

Its not a 9600 however.. and you will have to put up with most discussions and threads referring to that card.


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Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
Now i'm wondering if the computer i have even has a large enough case and the proper motherboard that i can even hook these card into.
Pluses and minuses to that system.. plus (potentially) is if the hardware has a licensed copy of Windows on it it will self-activate and you won't have to worry about Microsoft Activation servers. If you don't have a working hard drive with the original OEM image.. you may have trouble finding recovery media to restore it to factory spec.

Cooling and Power supply size are valid concerns.

Newegg sells high velocity/throughput ATX cases Fractal is a good brand that makes serveral in different colors.

I prefer the Seasonic 80 Power supplies.. they have a very good repuation.

Taking a Dell or Gateway or HP motherboard and putting it in a third party case however can be a challenge.

Honestly though, a 9800 is not that bad cooling and power wise.. if your fans are beefy and you upgrade them if there is room for something like 120mm, things should be fine. Personally I like the Noctua fans.. ugly by some accounts.. they are super silent.. if a little pricey.

Its very important though you have a separate hard drive for catching video.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
If you guys started from scratch what dedicated computer would you suggest for video capturing?
Your limited by what's available with an AGP slot for the most part (at least until I finish my research ) but "good" retro gear is going to cost real money.. that out of the way.

Visit Philscomputer lab on youtube he did a gamers review of an AGP motherboard ASROCK 775i6G R3.0 not too long ago. Unicorns still exist.. though they're fading fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
A link would be very helpful. As far as a sound card would any sound blaster card that fits in the pc be good?
Gosh no.. a thousand times no.

Sound cards vary all over the place.. too much to go into a short discussion here.

Stick to the tried and true, middle of the road.

Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card you can find them on eBay and it doesn't matter that they don't come with a driver disk or cables.

The cdrom for the driver disk iso image is available online.. or I have one. Its not that hard to find. Most of the Voyetra add-on software is defunct but the drivers and control panel apps work perfectly fine. Its a 5 volt PCI card.. and while designed for the Windows 2000 days.. works great in XP.

It can be a bit tricky to learn how to use all the controls.. its got 6 channel audio input and output for gosh sake. But its more than enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
I already spent a lot of money on this JVC so i don't think i can swing another VCR purchase and i said the VHS tapes were low quality but I don't even really know the difference.
I made that mistake. I think many other people do too.. buying before you know what you need.. feeling the urge to pull the trigger before its.. available nevermore.

But.. you'll likely need to save up and get one more ~~panasonic~~ maybe an AG2560.. maybe... or the AG-1980 from TGP . Specifically for those tapes that won't track or just won't settle down on playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
That was really more of an assumption i don't know what equipment was originally used or the speed.
Who really does?

Twenty years on from the last VCR, probably thirty or forty years on from when they were actually stuffed in a black box and someone pressed the record button [REC].

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Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
Should i clean the heads?
OMG .. No!!!!

Stay the heck away from those heads.. don't open that box.. set it aside.. until you forget you ever had ideas like that.. just .. no.

Don't do it.

Go buy another VCR before you try to clean the heads of your only VCR. Especially a 40K.. seek professional help.
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  #13  
09-24-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Back when the AIW 9800 was still available new, I was struggling to use two different Soundblaster cards with it. They caused endless sync headaches.

Now I'm unclear on whether you actually have this eBay JVC D-VHS VCR in your hands and have confirmed it functions.
That's been my experience with Soundblaster brand sound cards in general.. noisy and troublesome device drivers.

Soundblaster existed for a long time as a monopoly and the brand name recognition let them get away with a lot of things that would kill other companies. Quality and product consistency was not their strength.

that said.. I owned a few..

sound cards are difficult to research and make the "right" decision about.. sometimes you just want them to work.. device driver error "free".. and not go bump in the night.. when your trying to capture video.

Word of mouth is pretty much the best path when picking a sound card in my opinion.

But many companies are out of business these days.. separate discrete sound cards are few in number.. and generally aren't cheap. Everyone wants to use the motherboard sound chip.. whatever that is.. they want simplicity and to not have to worry about it.

The Physics of the situation however are that a motherboard sound chip is a poor choice and always will be until motherboards are all optical or quantum entangled links between chips.. because its a hot bed of electrical "noise" that bleeds into analog circuits inherent to a sound card.

Getting the analog circuits away from the lower board plane of the motherboard is the only thing that "works".

The Santa Cruz card has been good to me.. but its complexity has also bit me a few times.. you almost need a mini-technical degree to understand and use it.. its got many features we just don't think about by default turned on.. managing your sound card is not a first thought when setting up to capture video.

I guess it could use a better user manual too.. the existing .chm file just isn't adequate and its hard to find.
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  #14  
09-24-2019, 10:27 PM
keaton keaton is offline
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Just an FYI, that there just happens to be an ebay auction going on at the moment for the connector compatible with the X600 (i.e. 2 RF connectors per this post Black screen on AIW X600 Pro composite/svideo inputs?)

It currently has one bidder, and it ships from Greece for $10, not terrible. Bid ends near noon Central Standard Time this Saturday.

Search on "ati 6110018300"

If you get it, be sure to get an X600 pro card that has the connector on the card edge to plug this special connector in. There are many X600s out there that don't have this. But they are cheap on ebay if you find one, and it shouldn't be hard to do so. I see a "Buy It Now" on ebay for $20. See photo below, it's the connector on the left that is this special I/O connector that takes this cable. And, as stated before, the X600 Pro ATI disc for this card was posted elsewhere in the same thread I've referenced here.

x600pro.jpg


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  #15  
09-25-2019, 12:15 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Lots of posts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
They are all low quality tapes
Why do you think this?

Quote:
and i wanted to find a USB capture card to hook up to my laptop. After doing lots of reading on the forums it seems that its the general consensus to use legacy hardware on a windows XP computer.
AIW is best, but there are some quite decent USB cards available. While my primary workflows are AIW, I do have some USB on high-end Dell laptops (IPS display, eSATA, etc).

Quote:
Fortunately i do have an old PC that should meet the required specs. I'm still not sure which AIW card to go with though. I found an 8500DV would this be a recommended capture card? I can't seem to find a forum post comparing capture cards.
8500DV AGP is a good AIW model.

Quote:
I'm also confused about what type of recommended sound card i should go with and how that would be configured. I thought the audio jacks would go right into the purple box. But i know the one guide was saying to buy a sound card and to not use the computers on board sound card.
onboard = on motherboard
soundcard = PCI/PCIe card

Really nothing to configure. Get a quality card, Turtle Beach Santa Cruz is suggested. Best to avoid Creative cards. While I often went VCR > purple box, with it internally wired via AUX in years past, I more often no bypass and go VCR > Line In on TBSC card, because of noise issues, or channel issues. The ATI AIW can be screwy, I just assume not give it the option to screw with audio.

Quote:
The last thing that i would love some clarification on is if i can use a full frame sync TBC. I was looking at purchasing the datavideo-1000. Would this tbc world well with the VCR i purchased? I know that you can't turn off the TBC on the VCR so i'm not sure if you can run two TBCs at the same time.
Line TBC (JVC VCR) and frame TBC (DataVideo, Cypress) complement one another.
- internal cleans image
- external cleans signal
You need both.

Remember to look in the marketplace subforum, don't just run to eBay.
http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/marketplace/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bar72 View Post
if you've got access to an 8500dv then go for it, I'm no expert but any of the above with the registry hacks should get you where you wanna be
For 8500DV, no hack needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
With the D-VHS models, the only advantage of an external TBC should be Macrovision removal. Was gonna link a NJRoadfan post but it didn't copy properly and Ive run out of time atm.
External TBC is not just about removing Macrovision. It removes all signal errors, including the fake ones (ie anti-copy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
If they were recorded at slow speeds like LP, SLP then a JVC may not be the best VCR to play them back on.. JVC were best for high-speed EP recorded tapes made on a JVC VCR. One of the recommended Panasonics or Mitsubishis may be better with an SLP tape.
Mitsubishi is not better.
Some JVC do quite well at LP and ELP/EP, but not the D-VHS line. Those are tweaked to SP only. Most of the D-VHS decks are B+ at best on my tracking grading scale. I've never had an A+ D-VHS deck, only a couple of A- decks.

Quote:
You (may) have to install XP SP1 in order to install the software that comes with your capture card "first" then apply the Service Pack 2 "after"
Never had this issue. I install SP2 Pro from my MSDN disk. (Actually I now install from a slipstream of it, using DriverPacks.).

Quote:
Any of the AGP cards with the Theater 200 chip, it has a 12 bit Input encoder which was far better than the normal 8 bit Input encoder that comes on even "modern" capture devices.
I don't think that accurate -- noting it doesn't really matter. People put way too much emphasis on bit depth. It's VHS/Video8-based, and the source is like 6-bit dithered. Arguing 8/10/12 is pointless, waste of time..

Quote:
They exist but are highly biased and controversial since people who own the cards are heavily invested emotionally in their cards. Some compare on the basis of screen caps, or occasionally video clips.. but they are always subject to the quality of the source and testing conditions. So objectivity is missing.
Yes, watch for this. Too many people defend their purchase, zero objectivity. Some folks also refuse to revisit the past, and stick to archaic advice. Inversely, some are upgrade junkies, and anything older than the current year is "junk" to those low(video)knowledge IT nerds. Both should be disregarded, both give useless advice. Egos don't matter, quality does.

The purple box connectors route the audio through the card and right back out the back plane of the card to a 3.5 mm output jack.. which you "jumper" over to one of the inputs of your sound card.. the Line Input or the Mic depending on what you have.. or you plug it into your motherboard sound connectors. There are white "sound blaster audio" connectors on most video capture cards inside on the card itself if you have internal audio soundblaster connectors on your audio card.. with the proper cable you can avoid jumpering across the external backplanes. Theyare called "sound blaster audio" connectors because they first appeared on sound blaster sound cards.. and later sound cards adopted them as a defacto standard.

Quote:
The tracings on the motherboard are too close to one another to avoid interference
While true, the issue with onboard is more about timing and tinny quality.

Quote:
A VCR doesn't really have a TBC, we call it a "line TBC" because it "sort of cleans up the signal".
No, it's a true TBC, but line based. It differs from field or frame based.

Quote:
and cost a lot of money..
Certain TBCs were always in the $500+ range (with inflation, 2019 dollars). I don't get the recent revisionism on TBC pricing. Sure, for a few years there, a glut of used exists, sub-$500 happened. But it was never normal. Certain TBCs are equally in the sub-$100 range, have been for a decade now, and always will be (because those are crap, rackmount for non-consumer sources, almost no use in broadcast/studios now).

Quote:
There are reports that occasionally a line TBC will interfere with a frame sync TBC or vice versa..
Rare, but happens. I've not seen this in years now. Just to put it into perspective, I'll probably deal with more tapes in 1 year than you will ever. So if I don't see it often, what are the odds you will at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I thought I read earler that the main difference between the Theater 200 and the previous one was offloading more from the CPU and not any difference quality wise? Or am I wrong?
Correct. Main difference is more offload for MPEG-2 hybrid encoding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton View Post
If you choose to get an AIW PCI Express video capture card,
I don't suggest PCIe anymore. Too many caveats and issues with image and drivers, on top of proprietary connection hardware that's almost always missing.

Quote:
it is mostly a difference of opinion on whether JVC SVHS smoothes out too much detail or if it's just removing noise.
It also depends on the source tapes. Tapes don't all react the same. You'll run into case where Panasonic is softer. It's not a one-way scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
Ugg i typed out a whole detailed post and it gave me an error message so trying to retype it out.
A timeout, maybe?

Quote:
As far as a sound card would any sound blaster card that fits in the pc be good?
No. Most have distortion. You may not notice on cheap computer speakers, but odds are you will on the HDTV, unless also using the crappy tinny little things that is included on sets these days.

Quote:
But i included an imgur album
Please attach all images to posts: How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site
External links get 404'd, making the conversation useless to others in the future.

Quote:
Also this JVC VCR i picked up is from ebay any suggestions on how to make sure it works properly?
So many problems on eBay decks that it's hard to even know where to begin. I know quite a bit about the decks, but it's not easy to instruct it online. Both video and audio heads for sure must be tested, but without knowing what you should expect, it's almost impossible to know the deck is fine (or not fine).

Quote:
Should i clean the heads?
Never, unless it is specifically needed. Also never use cotton swabs (Q-tips). Overcleaning heads ruinis a VCR, sometimes worse than overused heads.

[QUOTE=keaton;64134]As most on this board would say about a VCR from ebay, you usually don't know what you'll get. It could be in alignment, or it could be quite out of alignment. There could be other things. You just don't know. If you just got a player, certainly try and find a tape that is the most expendable until you have confidence the player won't harm your more precious tapes.

Quote:
Certainly clean the heads.
Only if needed! Testing required to ascertain this!

Quote:
And as always stated here, DO NOT use Q-Tips on the video drum.
Worth repeating.

Quote:
Some would say using a piece of paper on video drum is OK.
usually recommend you get something very gentle, such as chamois swabs
I never say this.
Use chamois, foam, or dSLR sensor swabs.
A bag full is under $15 on Amazon:
- https://www.amazon.com/Zetek-Printhe...language=en_US
- https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Digita...language=en_US

Quote:
(often used to clean camera lenses, I believe).
Never use foam swabs on lens optics. Never even use microfiber.
Buy Pec Pads for camera lenses: https://www.amazon.com/PEC-PAD-Lint-...language=en_US

Quote:
Some say get 99%, but that is not as easy to find.
91% is fine.

Quote:
It all depends on what's good enough for you, but those with high standards recommend that card.
It's really not about "high standard", but any standards at all. Cheap cards add hum, buzz, distort with crackles, tinny, etc. Do you want you VHS tapes to sound like an AM radio station?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessle723 View Post
It's in the mail. I will receive it on Friday. I kinda just jumped on the deal and when it comes I would like to make sure it works properly. If not I could return it. I truly have a lot to learn and i probably should not have purchased anything until I was more informed but it is what it is.
Don't be impulsive, especially with eBay and video gear. It's not a good place for quality items. Many false promises of "tested" or "working". I literally have seen "tested" VCRs arrive with mangled electrical prongs. Now then, how exactly was that tested, when it could not even be plugged in without some serious pliers work? So many liars on that site, most of whom don't know anything about video. They'll stick in a crummy old tapes, see any quality signal, and proclaim it to be working. Ridiculous. But that's the norm.

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