#1  
10-11-2019, 04:52 AM
joonas joonas is offline
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Dear members of the forum

My name is Joonas and I am video (performance) specialist at Estonian Football Association. Recently I have received bulks of old soccer VHS tapes that would need to be captured to DVD.

As my experience with capturing VHS tapes has only been testing Ezcap few years ago, I would like to know, which would be the best solution/combination to transfer VHS tapes to DVD. Most of these tapes are LP tapes.

I have been looking up the forum in order to choose best capture card for this, but I see that most of them are discontinued. Would direct copy through DVD recorder do the work?

I am using Windows 7 as my OS.

Looking forward to your suggestions.
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  #2  
10-11-2019, 09:54 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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There are several paths.

1. The location of your country suggets PAL or SECAM tapes this will narrow your choice of VCR.

2. The speed of your tapes suggests the usual recommendation of a JVC may not be the best, other brands are Panasonic, Mitsubishi, and some lessor brands found in good condition. There is a guide for picking VCRs for playback if you have a choice but you need to pay attention to your tape signal format, PAL, SECAM or NTSC.

3. PC capture will give you a choice between Uncompressed or Compressed capture. Uncompressed is recommended but the output files are very very large. Lossless compression can shrink that but not by very much. If you have a lot of tapes you may have to settle for Compressed capture. Hardware PC compressed capture suggests an all in one TV Tuner or PVR solution.. which is a broad topic.. especially for a PAL or SECAM situation. Good cards are hard to find that output a compressed file format suitable for DVD burning. Hybrid Hardware/Software capture cards are both rarer and expensive and require a bit of technical skill to set up and maintain.. and then follow through to edit down to sizes that will fit on single DVDs. ATI makes the better Hybrid Hardware/Software cards and can be setup for PAL or SECAM but also can be a challenge to use. It will require dedication to the task for a long time.

4. PC capture choices fall into Firewire, AGP, PCI and USB connection types. Most of the less rare choices will be used equipment and "not" New. Firewire equipment isn't really looked at these days. Firewire gets confused with DV filecopy capture using an external device like a camcorder.. but there are non-DV capture Firewire solutions.. they are just rare and best avoided. AGP is very old and "best" but require a specialty PC and operating system like XP or Vista.. PCI and USB solutions are more compatible with Windows 7 and up to Windows 10.. but difficult to use and their reliability are questionable. Generally if using Windows 7 or above people tend to use one of the well known USB solutions.

5. PC solutions can be unwieldy and complicated. So sometimes, users will seek a DVD recorder (without) a built-in VCR. The VHS/DVD combo units are famous for poor construction and failure prone. Putting together a VCR with a separate DVD recorder is much more popular for many reasons. A large one being that external signal clean up and signal fixer equipment can be connected in between the VCR output and the DVD input.. which rarely can be done with most combo VHS/DVD recorders.

6. A third option.. which became available only as of February of this year (2019) is to use a DVD recorder with a Hard Drive that is on the supported list of DVD recorders with Hard drives by IsoBuster. That can record the VHS video signal straight to a hard drive and the DVD recorders hard drive removed and the compressed video recordings copied to files on a PC. DVD recorders require less forethought and setup than a PC with a Firewire, AGP, PCI or USB capture card. They are optimized for one task and offer simultaneous monitoring of the capture while it is taking place without degrading the capture quality. This also means you have a choice of storing the resulting recordings permanently on a PC hard drive, or burning to a DVD, or Blu-ray disc from the PC. Using PC optical burners it is far easier to buy brand new PC burners than replace a DVD recorder burner, and its easier to find blank media suitable for PC optical burners. DVD recorders also tend to have better signal input filters and a type of video signal image stabilizer which PC capture devices usually do not have.

Also Isobuster software works with DVR recorder hard drives over USB 2.0 or 3.0 from Windows, Linux or Mac and doesn't care about the version of Windows, Linux or Mac operating system since it is operating system neutral. Its also not sensitive to the speed of the CPU in the PC or Mac so long term its the best option from a lot of angles. Over 52 different brands makes and models of DVD recorders with HDD have been tested and verified to work. This type of hardware is getting rarer and harder to find.. but since you don't use the DVD burner ever.. buying a used DVD recorder on the Isobuster supported list doesn't even have to be "fully" functional.. it can be bought for "parts" and still be used.

One thing to keep in mind though is Isobuster isn't free, it will let you verify by looking at the DVD recorder harddrive that recordings are there, and you should be able to copy them off before purchasing a license.. but to actually copy them off a license is required. Its a good fair model and fairly low cost compared to just about any other software.. there is nothing else like it in its category. Free is not a good thing in this case.. works "well".. is a good thing.

7. Finally all recording devices will benefit from a clean and stable signal from the VCR. Certain VCRs will have line TBC or video filters to clean up and stablize poor quality tape signals. External boxes like frame synchronizers and frame TBC will further enhance the signal and make the capture device less likely to drop frames of video, or drop samples of audio leading to video stutter, jitter and audio pops clicks and dropouts.. all of which lead to aborted capture sessions and de-synchronized audio and video playback.

That's a lot of choices and things to consider.

Not all of the options will be open to you, so sometimes you have to sit back and collect gear and make a few trial runs to see if what you have is good enough.. or decide to delay the project until your ready.

p.s. VHS tapes are recordings in SD (480i) video signal format, after SD in 2009 video signals became a new format called "analog" HDTV 1.0 and later "digital" HDTV 2.0. Newer capture cards came out for capturing the "digital" HDTV 2.0 common from gaming platforms.. with backwards capture ability for analog gaming consoles. These assume the gaming consoles have no copy protection on the signal output and generally are very sensitive to DRM in digital or analog forms and are (very) poor at capturing analog SD video signals.

("Simply") avoid cheap or expensive "streaming" or "gamer" capture cards, PCI or USB they do not work well.. and the output looks terrible. They also tend to fail to complete a recording transfer aborting for one reason or another. The video files produced also are not suitable for DVD burning and require further transcoding lowering their visual quality even further.

Upscaling is also to be avoided, interference patterns in the Upscale process (even with anti-aliasing) degrade the viewing experience and look bad when played back on a modern progressive display. Its "better" to capture Uncompressed, and keep it uncompressed, in its original interlaced form rather than "force" it into a modern compressed progressive display format.

There is simply no reason to de-interlace.. it throws away too much signal detail (permanently) for no reason.. modern CPUs are far better at handling the high bandwidth signal and new algorithms for de-interlacing on the fly in software playback get better every year. Cartoon-ifying your video to save a few bytes makes no sense.

It can be frustrating not being able to buy New equipment.. and people tend to buy one of these "gamer" capture devices out of frustration.. you can't stop people.. and no amount of warning helps.. everyone eventually buys one and regrets it.. but its common knowledge these do an awful job.

The low cost gamer capture devices generally cost 100 usd, the average (non-professional) cost 600-700 usd.. and there really aren't any professional quality sold anymore.. professionals tend to buy the older analog capture equipment off the used market if they have a strong need.. or outsource the transfer project to people who have the old equipment.

In general.. analog video capture is a messy cable business.. simplifying to HDMI is the worst thing you can do.. convenience by using HDMI and Win10 because that's all you can find will most likely not work.. the signal will look terrible, you won't be able to enhance it and your options will be extremely limited to fix the situation.

Last edited by jwillis84; 10-11-2019 at 10:52 AM.
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  #3  
10-11-2019, 01:39 PM
WarbirdVideos WarbirdVideos is offline
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What about deinterlacing with QTGMC? I've had stunning results using it and the 60p conversion it does.
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  #4  
10-11-2019, 02:26 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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De-interlacing is never a good idea.

You have to ask yourself (why?) am I de-interlacing.. to save a few bytes storage? or Just because I can say its progressive?

But especially sports footage.. there is a lot of dynamic motion capture in the video (pun there..) so de-interlacing will (have to) introduce interpolation artifacts in order to turn 60 fields per second into 30 frames per second progressive.. there is no way to "invent" data that is not in the original signal capture.. and it by definition will be wrong.. so it will produce artifacting. In sports video this will be the worst.. only filming explosions might produce more motion.

I can't think of a more terrible situation in which to do de-interlacing, you'll have high motion, noisy unstable VHS tape video signal coming off. If the signal were of talking heads.. coming off a digital video recorder.. maybe de-interlacing wouldn't be that bad.. but not in this case.

Theoretically.. a scene could be reconstructed in a computer in 3D using digital models to predicatively reconstruct missing information for de-interlacing.. but we're years away from that type of technology. We'll have digital actors replacing de-aging in film first.
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  #5  
10-11-2019, 04:05 PM
WarbirdVideos WarbirdVideos is offline
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I have lot's of footage of WWII airplanes and air racing. When deinterlaced and frame doubled with QTGMC, the footage looks dynamic and alive. It's night and day. I'm very impressed. Of course, I post only to the web, not TV.

Here's a quick sample of footage shot with a VX-2000 in DV. I ran it through QTGMC, deinterlaced it, so it's now at 60p, and upscaled it. I'm using a little drag and drop program (actually scripts) written by a guy named Al from another forum. It does it all automatically and can batch 99 files. It's called "DV avi helper".

Here's the sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRdHLZnNOYA
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  #6  
10-11-2019, 04:35 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Unless you're watching on a CRT TV, the footage will be deinterlaced at one point, either you do it yourself e.g using QTGMC, or you leave it up to the playback device.

If you're putting it on a DVD (or blu-ray) leaving it interlaced is preferable, since the DVD specs will limit you to 25/29.97 FPS progressive scan video, rather than the full 50/59.96 frame rate. For playing on a computer, youtube, form a memory stick on a TV etc, I think deinterlacing to 60 FPS with QTGMC is reasonable in that case. I don't know how good the deinterlacers in modern TVs are compared to QTGMC, what you get on live playback on computers is usually not all that good.

Last edited by hodgey; 10-11-2019 at 04:47 PM.
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  #7  
10-11-2019, 07:21 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: PAL/SECAM is not 480i, NTSC is.

The question becomes what is your end goal beyond transferring VHS content to DVD. Do you want/need/indend to do image restoration? Edit the material to remove "dead" time when nothing is going on? Or just have something to play that is no worst than what you see when you play the tape.

A dump to a DVD recorder provides a quick and easy way to get material to a DVD for viewing on current equipment. It will be a close approximation to the quality you see playing the tape but will not solve problems in the recording such as poor color balance, video noise, etc.
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  #8  
10-12-2019, 02:32 PM
joonas joonas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
There are several paths...

Long story short.
Thank you for that overview of today's market. I have been wondering long that there must be more innovative solutions since time I used easycap. I think I would try that VHS->HDD DVD Recorder->IsoBuster move because that sounds the most logical to me.

The question is about that VCR/DVD recorder hardware. I would better go off to buying used hardware, because it does not really matter, am I right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
The question becomes what is your end goal beyond transferring VHS content to DVD. Do you want/need/indend to do image restoration? Edit the material to remove "dead" time when nothing is going on? Or just have something to play that is no worst than what you see when you play the tape.
As I am working with videos every day and producing myself, also being perfectionist as the same time, I just want to have them on DVD with the best possible quality without doing any manual post-processing, image restoration etc, by myself at the same time.
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  #9  
10-13-2019, 06:25 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Post capture processing is the key to highest quality.

If you want best quality you can get without post capture processing it geneerally means having a quality SVHS VCR, using s-video connections, a timebase corrector, proc amp for on-the-fly image corrections, quality DVD recorder, and monitoring the recording to tweak the proc amp as necessary. The other threads on gear can provide recommendations on gear.
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  #10  
10-14-2019, 10:53 AM
WarbirdVideos WarbirdVideos is offline
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Why would one use a proc amp for correction during the capture process? The video levels should pass into the computer near what they were recorded at. Isn't the point to capture the video "as-is" and process after the capture when you have total control?

The only thing that would vary (I believe) is if your card boosted the levels from camera level (16-235) to computer level (0-255). Even in that case, the levels should be easily corrected in an editing program. Right? Or would the proc amp be used for Y/C correction?
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  #11  
10-14-2019, 01:43 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Quote:
The question is about that VCR/DVD recorder hardware. I would better go off to buying used hardware, because it does not really matter, am I right?
As of 2017 you don't really have "any" choice but to buy used hardware. No one in the US makes DVD recorders with Hard drives anymore. In the EU a pseudo version was still made and marketed by Panasonic until they went totally Blu-ray and then totally Sat box playback only.. and those are DRM encrypted on their hard drives.

There are still a lot of DVD recorders on the used market however, and often selling at a large discount. Since most people don't know that a broken DVD burner does not matter they may sell them for very little cost for "parts only".

This forum does not cater to the Compressed video capture market.. exactly.. its more professional oriented.

You mentioned your a Perfectionist.. if that is the case you will want to avoid Compressed capture and DVD quality capture and go with Uncompressed capture. The reason is that Compressed capture will introduced small imperfections called artifacts into the final video which get interpreted by subsequent re-Compression as "noise" which degenerates the video quality making it worse with each "digital re-generation" Those Uncompressed files are very very large, but large hard drives have become much more accessible and cost less today.

So for example I do not think you would find a "Recommended" DVD/HDD recorder list anywhere "yet".. it might emerge at a later date.

If you did go with a DVD/HDD Compressed capture strategy the "Tested" and best recorders in my personal opinon are:

1. Toshiba
2. Pioneer
3. Panasonic
4. Mangavox

We are still working on JVC DVD/HDD but while progress has been made.. its not ready for general use yet.

Be aware that they always made DVD recorders and DVD/HDD recorders.. they look nearly alike, but only the specific models that contained hard drives would be useful for capturing video with a dysfunctional DVD burner. And the DVD burners from that ancient decade were not very good at burning to modern DVD media. (And, and) the last semi-good quality DVD media maker just sold all their assets so DVD media in general may disappear in the next few years. Everything is going to Blu-ray.. even the low quality stuff.. its become the lowest common denominator. Many computer makers no longer include optical drives.. or empty 5.25 drive bays in their new full size towers.. so its a rarefied media form in 2019.

Isobuster got started as something else, then DVD/HDD drive copying for specific recorders was added this year.. originally a guy on another forum gave me a list of the most useful, most venerable and highly thought upon DVD recorders and we started with those.. it spiraled out of control once we realized the old "assumption" that the HDD were encrypted turned out to be inaccurate.

I wanted to come up with a DVD to modern DVD burner bridge.. but after watching two DVD blank media vendors exit the market in a few short months.. had a re-think and decided the transition away from all optical media was happening faster than most people were guessing it would. I would not be surprised if even DVD drives themselves disappeared from online stores before the middle of next year. So "ripping" burned DVD media back to hard drives may become impossible in less than two years and used DVD drive costs for reading could soar. -- it does help that (some) Blu-ray drives have two lasers and can read the older DVD wavelength.. but this is already being removed in new drives as a cost saving measure.. many new Blu-ray drives cannot read DVD discs... they don't even label them as such.. buyer beware.

After re-thinking, copying to a PC HDD and leaving it there permanently.. making backups to other duplicate HDD long term may become the only viable archivists solution. I'm still thinking on this.. digital tape for many years had an advantage over analog tape, or hard drives.. but no longer. And Compressed video storage long term degrades faster than Uncompressed video since the loss of one frame may be part of a GOP (Group of Pictures).. Uncompressed at least loosing one frame means only loosing one frame.

A lot of people put stock in believing DVD or Blu-ray media will last longer than HDD storage.. but unless its turned over.. its subject to not only its degradation.. but the loss of the ability of modern computers easily accessed that can actually read the optical media. Technically Hard drives have been around longer.. even if individually they don't last as long. The key to long term storage has always been monitoring and turning over duplicate copies.. re-copying in a loss-less format.. even for Silver nitrate films in film vaults. As a second rule of thumb to active monitoring and turn over.. I'm adding monitoring of viable formats so that you do trans-format turn over into something that will be around since every format dies.. even stone carvings in mud. Gutenberg helped a lot with the turn over of Literary material.. so none of these ideas are new. We've been book collecting a long time.

A possible saving grace for DVD/HDD recorders is "some" may be able to record in I-Frame only mode.. which is a kind of low compression MPEG format with no GOP.. so if an I-Frame is lost.. its no worse than loosing a single frame. I haven't vetted or verified this out.. it may be tied to their "frame accurate" editing recorder mode.. which some DVD/HDD recorders have.. notably high end ones like Pioneer or JVC.. but its a slim hope.

Last edited by jwillis84; 10-14-2019 at 02:16 PM.
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  #12  
10-14-2019, 02:47 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
A possible saving grace for DVD/HDD recorders is "some" may be able to record in I-Frame only mode.. which is a kind of low compression MPEG format with no GOP.. so if an I-Frame is lost.. its no worse than loosing a single frame. I haven't vetted or verified this out.. it may be tied to their "frame accurate" editing recorder mode.. which some DVD/HDD recorders have.. notably high end ones like Pioneer or JVC.. but its a slim hope.
First time i hear about this, do you have specific models in mind ?
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  #13  
10-14-2019, 03:54 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
A possible saving grace for DVD/HDD recorders is "some" may be able to record in I-Frame only mode.. which is a kind of low compression MPEG format with no GOP.. so if an I-Frame is lost.. its no worse than loosing a single frame.
There are at least some that can record to HDD with the DV codec rather than mpeg2, I know at least the JVC DR-M100 (PAL) can. That said, if one is after "near lossless", and don't need the special LSI chroma filter stuff it's not massively more difficult to just capture from the video output of the recorder, either HDMI or analog, to a PC,rather than capturing the recorder itself.
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  #14  
10-15-2019, 04:43 PM
traal traal is offline
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Why would one use a proc amp for correction during the capture process? The video levels should pass into the computer near what they were recorded at. Isn't the point to capture the video "as-is" and process after the capture when you have total control?
In my head, I think of the proc amp controls in the capture device as the way get a good "exposure" across the limited (usually 8-bits) range of the capture device in order to avoid noise in the shadows (luma too low) and blown out highlights (luma too high). This gives VirtualDub, or whatever you use, more information to work with for further levels correction and so on.
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  #15  
10-15-2019, 08:46 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
There are at least some that can record to HDD with the DV codec rather than mpeg2, I know at least the JVC DR-M100 (PAL) can. That said, if one is after "near lossless", and don't need the special LSI chroma filter stuff it's not massively more difficult to just capture from the video output of the recorder, either HDMI or analog, to a PC,rather than capturing the recorder itself.
Interesting.. but I haven't really thought it all the way through.. its a musing for now.

PCs are simply harder to use and maintain.. and DVD recorders are still going after nearly 20 years.. I can't say that about any modern PC that is suitable for capture.

A PC lives fast and dies fast.. and lives by the update, and dies by the update.

A DVD recorder just keeps trucking along, doing the same thing over and over. Save Thors wrath or a bad Capacitor fit.. they don't adjust their firmware much.
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  #16  
10-18-2019, 03:06 PM
gooch gooch is offline
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Hi Jwillis84,
I'm new at this too, i have lots of old VHS TAPES PAL i'm trying to transfer into my PC, I have 8710 green and pinnacle 710 USB
all from LS now i'm ready, the thing i need to know do i need drivers for windows 10 64bit for Pinnacle 710 usb?
also what would be the best settings to capture with Virtdub? i have PAL TAPES
Thank you
Gooch
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  #17  
10-19-2019, 03:17 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooch View Post
Hi Jwillis84,
I'm new at this too, i have lots of old VHS TAPES PAL i'm trying to transfer into my PC, I have 8710 green and pinnacle 710 USB
all from LS now i'm ready, the thing i need to know do i need drivers for windows 10 64bit for Pinnacle 710 usb?
also what would be the best settings to capture with Virtdub? i have PAL TAPES
Thank you
Gooch
My experience has been confined to the Windows 10/7/XP and Pinnacle 700-USB which is a fairly different box. But I think it should be similar.

Basically yes you do want the 64 bit drivers installed.

You want to "start" the video signal source before you start VirtualDub. This means playing back a tape, or viewing a video signal on one of the Inputs to the VCR. You cannot configure the device driver or virtual dub until they detect a video signal.

The only three things you really need to know using VirtualDub are:

1. Turn on Video > Preview
2. Turn on Audio > Enable audio playback
3. Turn PAL capture mode on Video > Capture filter > Video decoder > Video standard > PAL_B

Video Preview always has to be enabled to see the USB video capture
Audio playback always has to be enabled to hear the USB audio capture

VirtualDub will capture "Uncompressed" which means the capture file will grow at 1.1 GB per minute

A 60 minute video will be over 60 GB

It will be of the highest quality possible

But many people want to Compress it with software after capture to reduce its size. Don't do that until you've edited it and tweaked the video as much as you plan to edit or tweak it. Editing and tweaking on Compressed video will destroy the fine detail and cause generation loss each time its saved.

A user who has the 510-USB reported the crossbar for the audio was not properly set by default.

VirtualDub will not set the crossbar for the 510-USB, this may be the same with the 710-USB.

To set the crossbar and make audio capture work, you may need to use the separate "Crossbar Thingy" at the same time as VirtualDub to "switch" the audio source to the same input as the video, Composite or S-Video.

Those are the basics.

Extras:

1. You can "Save" the Device settings, so that each time you start VirtualDub it will setup the Device as much as possible (all except the crossbar). To do this, click Device (menu) > Device Settings ... > "checkbox" Save current display mode as default > "Ok"

2. The Proc-amp controls for the device drivers Input will stop the video, so you can't really tweak those from the Video > Capture filter > Video proc amp "panel", but you can tweak the "Levels" from the Video > Levels menu option, this looks like and works like a Proc-amp but the video continues to play and does much the same thing.

Last edited by jwillis84; 10-19-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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  #18  
10-19-2019, 05:54 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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A couple of advices (given my past +15 years of trials and errors with vdub and others):

1- Use the histogram to know precisely the levels (make sure the blacks-whites are within the legal range of 16-235), especially the blacks, the whites can be slightly out of range w/o much trouble
2- use a lossless video codec (huffyuv v2.1.1, lagarith, UTvideo (good compression), your choice)
3- Capture short length videos (10-15min max) because more often than not you'll get audio/video desync) and you will have to deal with +20GB for one video..not ideal for the system/non linear editor.
4- Make sure the audio don't saturate, always leave some room (adding +3 db later is not an issue)
Optional: if you can filter out chroma noise (there is always some) at the capture stage it's less job down the road (but may lead to A/V desync, you'll have to test to make sure. The filter for that being Camcorder color denoise indeed (with low values, between 7-15 generally

Good luck to you
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  #19  
10-19-2019, 06:13 PM
gooch gooch is offline
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thank you ,
I'll give it a try
Cheers
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  #20  
10-19-2019, 06:14 PM
gooch gooch is offline
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Thank you
I'll give it a try
cheers
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