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01-02-2020, 10:50 AM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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I have a chance to get this today for about $35, but I'm unsure of it's quality as a passthrough for converting VHS to Digital. Any advice would be appreciated. thanks!
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  #2  
01-02-2020, 11:02 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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No that is not a good DVR for pass thru.

That model was one of the early Pioneer models which required a perfect "broadcast" signal in order to capture. The concept of using DVRs to capture VHS tape playback had not caught on yet and they did not design in noise filters and sync regnerators or pseudo line TBC and frame locks until at least the next year models.

As TBCs have dried up or reach stratospheric prices used.. people are starting to stretch credibility in the forum articles they have read in order to "hopefully" get something as good as a TBC or a good VCR.

There was really only one specific model that did good for pass thru (ES10) and those are developing many problems with their capacitors with age. Unless maintained their power supplies are reaching end of life.

We are at the point where do it yourself may be coming to an end because the casual consumer user does not have the skillset or patience to keep these old DVRs going. They are also not returning their used or failing ones to the pool by reselling them after they fail.. so parts are drying up.

You can keep trying and might get lucky, but seeking the help of a reputable service provider to do the transfer may soon be in the better interest of people who have the gear and skills to keep it going, and those needing the service. Outlier random special cases are possible but less likely now. I hope I am wrong and things return to the norm like past years after this Seasonal drought.. but its almost irrational to keep up that hope.

Some perspective.. this hardware is mostly over 16 years old now. That's old for vcrs, computer hardware.. or just about anything. In 1986 that would have been something from 1970 That's old.
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  #3  
01-02-2020, 11:18 AM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
No that is not a good DVR for pass thru.

That model was one of the early Pioneer models which required a perfect "broadcast" signal in order to capture. The concept of using DVRs to capture VHS tape playback had not caught on yet and they did not design in noise filters and sync regnerators or pseudo line TBC and frame locks until at least the next year models.

As TBCs have dried up or reach stratospheric prices used.. people are starting to stretch credibility in the forum articles they have read in order to "hopefully" get something as good as a TBC or a good VCR.

There was really only one specific model that did good for pass thru (ES10) and those are developing many problems with their capacitors with age. Unless maintained their power supplies are reaching end of life.

We are at the point where do it yourself may be coming to an end because the casual consumer user does not have the skillset or patience to keep these old DVRs going. They are also not returning their used or failing ones to the pool by reselling them after they fail.. so parts are drying up.

You can keep trying and might get lucky, but seeking the help of a reputable service provider to do the transfer may soon be in the better interest of people who have the gear and skills to keep it going. Outlier random special cases are possible but less likely now. I hope I am wrong and things return to the norm like past years.. but its almost irrational to keep up that hope.

Some perspective.. this hardware is mostly over 16 years old now. That's old for vcrs, computer hardware.. or just about anything. In 1986 that would have been something from 1970 That's old.
Ok great, not a problem. I have a line on quite a few of these, as well as VCR's, so not a big deal. I'm just trying to grow my knowledge in this area of electronics as I am transferring old tapes. I have a Toshiba M752 and 2 JVC HR-S6900Us so far and have a Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro PCIe card coming. Right now I'm using an old AverMedia m791, m780 and one of those cheezy EasyCap USB trainwrecks...lol. The quality of my old tapes is already not good, because I was 10-16 years old when I was using the camera. So as you can imagine the quality is poor and you can get sea-sick watching them from all the moving around. BUT, they are my memories and however horribly filmed they were, I still want to preserve them. Oh and I also have an old Magnavox Movie Maker SVHS camera, but it doesn't power on. If you hold down the eject button or keep the power button slid to the right, there is a faint motor noise inside. As soon as you let go of the button, the motor goes off. No clue what it is, but I've always loved taking things apart and have fixed some others as well as VCRs, TVs, computers, etc so if I can get some time I'm going to attack it. Thanks for your time and advice, much appreciated!
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01-02-2020, 11:43 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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The oldest pioneers has been mentioned here and elsewhere as not being particularly good. The x30 and newer (second number determines the generation) pioneers can do an ok job for correcting jitter etc on pass-through on most tapes(at least the PAL models). They're not quite as powerful as the panasonic models though, on the plus side they have more adjustment options.

EDIT: Looks like some US DVR-x3x (but not x4x on) models have a different chipset, so they may behave differently.

Last edited by hodgey; 01-02-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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  #5  
01-02-2020, 11:49 AM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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A friend sent me a link about the 320, just as I had written it off (still probably going to) and I was wondering what the person in this comment was talking about here ...."My PC has an AverMedia BDA capture card, based on the Philips SAA713x chipset; I've done these tests using the CLD-D925 composite out to three different DVD recorder, used in passthrough mode as comb filters; the Panasonic DMR-ES15, the Pioneer DVR-320 (comb filter set for movement), and the Yukai DVDR-100B (a Mustek clone, for whom it may concern...), then from the DVD recorder to the capture card via S-Video cable; plus, a direct CLD-D925 -> capture card via S-Video; the test video is from the NTSC Video Essential." Says Pioneer DVR-320 comb filter set for movement? Never heard that before. Here's the link by the way... https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Co...d/15421/page/4
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01-02-2020, 12:04 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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It's the filter that separates color (C/Chroma) from brightness (Y/Luminance) in a composite video signal. Laserdiscs store video in composite format at a much higher bandwidth than VHS, so for that a good comb filter is essential to avoid luma and chroma interfering with each other. That can result in artifacts, like dot crawl (moving "dots" around edges) and flashing colour over "stripy" areas of the video, the thread is about investigating the comb filters in various devices. VHS has color and brightness stored separately on tape (also with a lower bandwidth), so when you use the S-Video output on a SVHS deck the color and brightness isn't mixed together to composite video at all, and you avoid that issue.

On these DVRs the filter can be adjusted a little to look better in either static or moving scenes.
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01-02-2020, 12:25 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
It's the filter that separates color (C/Chroma) from brightness (Y/Luminance) in a composite video signal. Laserdiscs store video in composite format at a much higher bandwidth than VHS, so for that a good comb filter is essential to avoid luma and chroma interfering with each other. That can result in artifacts, like dot crawl (moving "dots" around edges) and flashing colour over "stripy" areas of the video, the thread is about investigating the comb filters in various devices. VHS has color and brightness stored separately on tape (also with a lower bandwidth), so when you use the S-Video output on a SVHS deck the color and brightness isn't mixed together to composite video at all, and you avoid that issue.

On these DVRs the filter can be adjusted a little to look better in either static or moving scenes.
So if I am using an S-Video cable out of my 6900U, this filter would not be helpful then? I can get the DVR for $30.
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  #8  
01-02-2020, 12:31 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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That's correct.
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01-02-2020, 12:34 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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By the way, sorry for sounding pushy, but the auction went off at 12:30 CST, so I was kinda in a hurry...lol. I let it pass and someone bought it for $31.
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  #10  
01-02-2020, 03:50 PM
jnielsen jnielsen is offline
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Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
There was really only one specific model that did good for pass thru (ES10) and those are developing many problems with their capacitors with age. Unless maintained their power supplies are reaching end of life.
I have the ES10, ES15 and DX77. I think they all works well as TBC.
ES10 has the "strongest" TBC but personally I best like the ES15 for general use.
I have made a test illustrating the effect of ES10 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japF...di_77D&index=3
and all three DVD recorders here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsgm...I9S-IXPzdi_77D
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  #11  
01-02-2020, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Apache2223 View Post
I have a chance to get this today for about $35, but I'm unsure of it's quality as a passthrough for converting VHS to Digital. Any advice would be appreciated. thanks!
It was a good DVD recorder for recording 4x3 analog TV, but that's about it. It was unremarkable for features, and mostly just didn't make quality worse (a problem with many units back then). These days, it has near-zero usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Apache2223 View Post
2 JVC HR-S6900Us so far and have a Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro PCIe card coming.
Why?

That JVC model is old, no TBC, no filters, not recommended.

That capture cards has known problems with SD capturing, especially frame dropping/duping even when TBC is present. BM themselves have stated that it's really not meant for consumer analog sources like VHS, only pro analog sources like BetacamSP. Why do people keep buying those things? It's like buying a hatchback to tow a trailer -- wrong tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnielsen View Post
I have the ES10, ES15 and DX77. I think they all works well as TBC.
ES10 has the "strongest" TBC but personally I best like the ES15 for general use.
I have made a test illustrating the effect of ES10 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japF...di_77D&index=3
and all three DVD recorders here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsgm...I9S-IXPzdi_77D
At best, the ES10/15 are "TBC(ish)", not true TBCs. There are very distinct weakness, noise/etc leaks through to the capture device. Some still give minor errors, others still make the signal uncaptureable, and some fall between those extremes to varying degrees.

It's not a TBC. It is useful, especially paired with the DVK/5000 units (which does makes it about 99% as effective as true TBC, though still with ES10/15 artifacts).

The ES10/15 also acts mostly as line TBC(ish), often weaker than a JVC/Panasonic line/field TBC. It has near-zero frame sync TBC ability, though it does have some minimalist corrections (which is why the DVK/5000 is needed to bolster it).

External frame TBCs mostly correct the signal, with some correction of image quality. But the Youtube samples of "TBC" mostly address line timing functionality. You can still see quite a few leftover errors that Panasonic or JVC would have resolved, especially the Panasonic field (multi-line).

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  #12  
01-02-2020, 05:19 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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Why?

That JVC model is old, no TBC, no filters, not recommended.

That capture cards has known problems with SD capturing, especially frame dropping/duping even when TBC is present. BM themselves have stated that it's really not meant for consumer analog sources like VHS, only pro analog sources like BetacamSP. Why do people keep buying those things? It's like buying a hatchback to tow a trailer -- wrong tool.
I got the 2 6900Us for less than the shipping cost, because they were "not accepting tapes." A family member of mine pretty much donated them to me and knowing him well, I knew they had been taken very good care of and hoped the fix might be a simple one. Within 3 hours, both are working and play my old movies better than my Toshiba M752. He then asked if I needed an old "video card" as well, which turned out to be the Blackmagic. It was free, and when I am offered something that cheap, I almost always accept. I am doing this tape to digital project for the learning experience almost as much as I am doing it to preserve memories. When I do a project, I don't always have the money to get the best of everything, but I HAVE to learn as much as I can while doing it. So I feel like I just received a badge of honor by getting a response from someone with your knowledge. Like I just got a free class at Harvard Law for a day. To everyone else that has taken time to give me advice, I appreciate it also. The picture I am getting from the JVC HR-S6900U to my VERY old AverMedia M791 via S-Video is imo excellent. It's better than I even thought the tapes looked 30 years ago when I originally recorded them. I'm sure it isn't, but it's definitely good enough for my eyes. So if I don't end up getting a DVD recorder or better capture card, I will still be more than happy with what I have now. The only thing I am thinking of doing is using my HP Z420 workstation that has a Xeon E5-1650, 16Gb of RAM and an AMD FirePro S7000, rather than my current setup just to see if there is a difference. Right now I'm using a Gigabyte z97x-sli with an i7 4790k, 16gb of RAM and a GTX 1050ti OC. Both have Samsung 970 Pro 500GB M.2 SSDs, mounted on M.2 to PCIe adapters. From what I've read, the workstation is much more compatible with all things analog to digital than the Gigabyte. Plus, I haven't used the HP in a couple years, so it probably needs the cobwebs blown off of it so to speak and my AverMedia card in the Gigabyte gets aggravating. Thanks lordsmurf and everyone else for their time and knowledge!

-- merged --

I tried to put lordsmurf's comment from the above reply into a quote box, but looks like it didn't work out to well. I guess I need a tutorial on how to do that too...lol. Fixed. -LS
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01-02-2020, 05:46 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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Awesome, thanks LS. For the past 35 years I've been wondering how Brainy Smurf ended up so smart. But now it's obvious. You tutored him....possibly to impress Smurfette? I think she was my first crush...lol. Just before Nicole Eggert and Alyssa Milano, followed closely by Kelly Bundy!........oh man those tight skirts she wore! I just love memories....
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01-02-2020, 06:26 PM
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possibly to impress Smurfette? I think she was my first crush...lol.
Years ago, I did have a significant other that referred to herself as my Smurfette.
But alas, that ended.

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Nicole Eggert and Alyssa Milano, followed closely by Kelly Bundy!........oh man those tight skirts she wore! I just love memories....
Yes, yes, and yes.

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01-02-2020, 07:27 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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I think Josie Davis ended up better looking than the other 3. And I had no crush on her whatsoever...lol.


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01-03-2020, 06:44 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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I have the ES10, ES15 and DX77. I think they all works well as TBC.
ES10 has the "strongest" TBC but personally I best like the ES15 for general use.
I have made a test illustrating the effect of ES10 here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japF...di_77D&index=3
and all three DVD recorders here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsgm...I9S-IXPzdi_77D
How about the ES17, is it worth $15 if I only need it as a passthrough TBC?
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01-03-2020, 07:30 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Can't find anything about an ES17, maybe you meant one of ES16, ES18 and EZ17? For PAL at least most panasonics work (the ES20 is a bit special as it has different hardware so avoid that for pass-through), though the newer models are not quite as powerful as the ES10. For that price it's probably worth trying.
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  #18  
01-03-2020, 07:46 PM
Apache2223 Apache2223 is offline
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Can't find anything about an ES17, maybe you meant one of ES16, ES18 and EZ17? For PAL at least most panasonics work (the ES20 is a bit special as it has different hardware so avoid that for pass-through), though the newer models are not quite as powerful as the ES10. For that price it's probably worth trying.
I just figured out that it was listed wrong. It's a DMR-EZ17. I don't think it's any good, but I found an ES10 for $55.
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