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  #1  
01-16-2020, 01:35 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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This post is work in progress...

Hi8 stereo with TBC and s-video:
CCD-TRV62
CCD-TRV65
CCD-TRV66
CCD-TRV67
CCD-TRV72
CCD-TRV82
CCD-TRV85
CCD-TRV87
CCD-TRV93
CCD-TRV99
CCD-TRV101
CCD-TRV615

Hi8 mono with TBC and s-video:
CCD-TRV68
CCD-TRV88
CCD-TRV98
CCD-TRV108
CCD-TRV138
CCD-TRV308
CCD-TRV318
CCD-TRV608

Digital8 with Video8/Hi8 playback and s-video:
DCR-TRV120
DCR-TRV230
DCR-TRV240
DCR-TRV320
DCR-TRV330
DCR-TRV340
DCR-TRV350
DCR-TRV460
DCR-TRV530
DCR-TRV720
DCR-TRV730
DCR-TRV740
DCR-TRV820
DCR-TRV830
DCR-TRV840

Thanks to volkjager for seeding the Hi8/D8 camera lists.

Betamax: Is there a Betamax VCR buying guide?

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Last edited by lordsmurf; 10-30-2020 at 02:32 PM. Reason: updated
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  #2  
01-17-2020, 12:43 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Thanks for this. All the Digital8 cams with Video/Hi8 playback should have the same robust TBC/DNR circuit seen in the listed Hi8 models.
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  #3  
01-17-2020, 03:47 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is online now
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Also including stereo and TBC

Sony EV-S7000 Hi8 VCR
Sony GV-D200 D8 VCR (With video8/Hi8 playback)
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  #4  
01-18-2020, 06:44 AM
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The VCR suggestions list (VHS, S-VHS) will be adjusted to a new format in the near future. Long time planning, short on time to actually make those changes. But it is going to happen in a few months.

This page/list needs to be in the same format.

The blank DVD media reviews adopted the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th class system many years ago, and that will soon be continued into other parts of the site.

For VCRs/cameras, this is it:
1st class = exceptional gear/decks, most suggested
2nd class = really good decks, some minor issues/nuisances/caveats
3rd class = decent, just not the best, fatal flaws exist
4th class = unacceptable, never suggested, complete waste of time and funds

So, essentially, these VHS/S-VHS, Betamax, Video8/Hi8, and Digital8/DV lists will only have 1st-3rd class. Because, wel, it's a suggested list. The 4th class does merit mention, if only to state "anything not explicitly listed here is not suggested" perhaps even giving some models of the worst most-common units.

This will be done in tables.

1st Class
BrandModelTypeNoteworthy
1. SonyCCD-OICU812cameraOnboard processing turns everyone into Smurfs!
2nd Class
BrandModelTypeCaveats
1. SamsungDCC-0KAYcameraNot a Sony! Ewww....
3rd Class
BrandModelTypeFatal Flaws
1. SonyCCD-L0U5YVCRNo TBC, no s-video.
4th Class
BrandModelTypeReason to Avoid
1. Sunbeam003910video toasterTape goes into slot, but pops out burnt less than a minute later.

So, with that info, anybody that would like to make suggestions, please do so. Where to classify the units (1/2/3/4), notes to add. It will be consider, likely incorporated. I have many notes already, many from Site Staff experiences. But community input is never a bad thing.

* Edit: And it seems I'll also have to add new styles to the tables, so all the columns line up.

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  #5  
01-18-2020, 08:49 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
Thanks for this. All the Digital8 cams with Video/Hi8 playback should have the same robust TBC/DNR circuit seen in the listed Hi8 models.
While they're probably based around the same chips, I think the first D8 lineup, e.g DCR-TRV110 DCR-TRV310 etc lack TBC/DNR. At least it's not mentioned in the manual

The numbering scheme for Sony's cameras is a bit inconsistent but there are some general trends:
CCD-xxx.. - analog
DCR-xxx.. - digital - either Digital8 or MiniDV

The V in TRV indicates that the camcorder has an LCD monitor.

The first number tends to indicate feature level (high better), second tends to indicate lineup. Third if any can be country differences or other things. Later non-LCD screen models had four numbers in addition to no V in the name. (E.g DCR-TRV7000)

They did seem to reset and change it a bit over the years though, so it's just a general guideline between related models.

Some special feature models had a different naming scheme alltogether. e.g the weird CCD-SC65E.

The video walkman series (essentially camcorder without the camera part) are named GV-xxxx.

It seems also for at least the later models (and especilly for VCRs), they often used different numbers for PAL and NTSC camcorders in addition to the E at the end.

Chroma issue in overscan on PAL models:
The PAL models have a strip at the rightmost edge where one of the chroma channels are blank as seen here. As far as I know all the Sony TBC/DNR camcorders have this issue. This post sugests that the VCRs have a similar issue (I've noted the same with the lower end EV-C2000e). Don't know about the big broadcast decks and pro cameras but those are rare and possibly prone to capacitor issues.

I believe the older Hi8 cameras did not have this issue, but the playback quality and dropout compensation is not as good and they lack TBC. My Hitachi D8 camera also does not have this, don't know about the Hitachi Hi8 models. (Been meaning to make some comparisons, but haven't gotten around to it.)

It's possible to mask the strip a bit with avisynth if it's bothersome.

NTSC playback on PAL
Many PAL models (at least most, haven't checked all) can play analog NTSC tapes in either NTSC 4.43 or PAL60 (adjustable in the menu) format. The TBC and DNR is not active when doing this so you would need something external to stabilize jitter in this case.

I believe NTSC D8 tapes play back on PAL D8 cameras over firewire and vice versa.

Some extras for the list:

Hi8 XR Stereo PAL:
CCD-TR840E
CCD-TR845E

Hi8 Mono PAL:
CCD-TRV218E
CCD-TRV418E

D8 PAL:
DCR-TRV345E
DCR-TRV355E
DCR-TRV356E

Hi8 Stereo PAL:
CCD-TR2200E
CCD-TR3300E

Hi8 Mono NTSC:
CCD-TRV118
CCD-TRV318
CCD-TRV418

D8 NTSC
DCR-TRV351

I've never used any of the earliest (pre-XR) TBC/DNR equipped models, and I haven't seen much about them on the forums either - would assume they would have similar performance but it would be nice if someone could confirm.

This post has a list of PAL VCRs with info about features.

Common issues with sony camcorders:
The internal contacts can sometimes get a bit dirty/corroded which can result in a lack of image (though that can also be caused by clogged heads) and other issues. Re-seating and cleaning the ribbon cable contacts inside the camera may help, but one needs to be careful if opening it.

The thing locking the pinch roller in place breaking and resulting in the pinch roller rubber bit getting loose/stuck/falling out also seem to be a common issue. I haven't tested any of the suggested fixes myself so I can't speak for how well they work.

Last edited by hodgey; 01-18-2020 at 09:01 AM.
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  #6  
01-18-2020, 12:12 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is online now
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Quote:
The first number tends to indicate feature level (high better), second tends to indicate lineup. Third if any can be country differences or other things.
In some cases the third digit may have ben used to designate a specific retail package with the accessories and/or the retail outlet (example: all COSTCO models might end in 7 to distinguish it from other resellers, and inhibit price comparisons/matching).
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  #7  
03-29-2020, 04:10 AM
HBB360 HBB360 is offline
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Not sure if I'm alowed to post on this thread but I have three PAL models to recommend, all have S-Video, are stereo, have TBC and DNR and two of them have data code though I don't think that's relevant for capturing :

Hi8 XR Stereo with TBC and DNR (PAL)
CCD-TRV69E (data code)
CCD-TRV77E (data code, digital frame buffer)
CCD-TRV87E (digital frame buffer)
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  #8  
04-18-2020, 03:32 AM
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The "DigitalCamcorderFeatures_20050311" list from camcorderinfo / videohelp forums may help in putting together a comprehensive list: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...PC#post2282689
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  #9  
05-14-2020, 08:51 AM
GrouseHiker GrouseHiker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The VCR suggestions list (VHS, S-VHS) will be adjusted to a new format in the near future. Long time planning, short on time to actually make those changes. But it is going to happen in a few months.
I would be glad to help with this effort... Especially since I am in the middle of trying to find a replacement 8mm player.

I could pull your notes together into a spreadsheet, and you can then sort and comment.
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  #10  
05-14-2020, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrouseHiker View Post
I would be glad to help with this effort... Especially since I am in the middle of trying to find a replacement 8mm player.
I could pull your notes together into a spreadsheet, and you can then sort and comment.
Please do!

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  #11  
05-14-2020, 12:54 PM
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Since the proper way of capturing analog tapes is thru a S-Video output can you guys make a separate sections for S-VHS/Hi8/D8 and VHS/Video8 so folks who seek quality can go straight to the right section. To be honest I would not recommend a Video8 or VHS VCR for any type of capturing task other than rewinding or sorting out tapes.
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  #12  
05-14-2020, 01:01 PM
GrouseHiker GrouseHiker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peasantdave View Post
The "DigitalCamcorderFeatures_20050311" list from camcorderinfo / videohelp forums may help in putting together a comprehensive list: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...PC#post2282689
Attached is the spreadsheet Brad posted in this link.

I assume too many columns is a problem; however, for my purposes, it would be nice if the rankings could include:

1. Output connections (DV, Y/C, Composite). I'm thinking the older cameras with only composite out shouldn't even be covered.

2. As posted above in excellent detail, the Sony model numbers identify digital models, but the rankings should probably indicate Y/N on playback of digital, Hi8, and/or Video8 (particularly for non-Sony units). In my case, I don't want digital (already have one that seems problematic) but definitely want analog playback with Y/C.

3. I have read some tests that indicate TBC and DNR may be important to some. I'm not sure of the terminology for this limited type of TBC (vs line TBC).

References to various success/failure stories (e.g., forum posts) would be nice, but then this project would start to look more like a database than a small spreadsheet.

Should I put something together for consideration?


Attached Files
File Type: xlsx Digital8CamcorderFeatures_20050311.xlsx (35.0 KB, 22 downloads)
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  #13  
05-14-2020, 09:10 PM
GrouseHiker GrouseHiker is offline
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Here's an idea (maybe too idealistic):

For each device model number (or at lease the ones worthy of mention), a forum post is created where people can record their success or problems with that device. These "device" threads can include links to more extensive (existing or new) threads.

The Ratings sheet would include links to those equipment-specific threads - an "organic" database.

These equipment feedback threads might be under a separate forum branch.
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05-15-2020, 02:49 AM
HBB360 HBB360 is offline
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That sounds interesting, as long as the forum can handle all the extra threads. You could also include the User and Service manuals for the model in a pinned post in each thread since sometimes they're hard to find but a person on here might have them.
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05-15-2020, 03:40 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrouseHiker View Post
I have read some tests that indicate TBC and DNR may be important to some. I'm not sure of the terminology for this limited type of TBC (vs line TBC).
Line TBC is usually resides inside a VCR or a camcorder, The helical scan of a video tape is mechanical and it's never perfectly precise due to mechanical imperfections and speed fluctuations of both the capstan and the video drum motors, as a result the scanned lines are not perfectly stacked (commonly known as mouse teeth) and they don't have the same length.

In a nutshell, the line TBC digitizes those lines on the fly one by one for each field and store each line in a memory buffer then apply the digital processing on each one to give it a fixed length and a time stamp then converts them back to analog with a corrected horizontal blanking signal built from those time stamps. the whole process is considered lossless. Some machines combine the DNR with TBC to avoid an extra A-D/D-A step such as most VCR's and some have it separated like in most camcorders.

External TBC or full frame TBC on the other hand corrects the timing of fields or frames, it digitizes and stores the whole field or frame one at a time in a memory buffer and time stamps those frames evenly to correct the vertical blanking signal. Then a frame synchronizer follows after.

Most external TBC's are built in frame synchronizer, it's function is to duplicate missing frames or drop extra ones, Also capture software are built in frame sychronizers too but if the the external TBC exists in the workflow chances are the capture software will not have any problems.

Some PCI capture cards from back in the day are built in full frame TBC and frame synchronizer, as well as some pro capture devices like the BE75 from Ensemble Designs, This saves an extra A-D/D-A step, so the whole process is done in one step during the digitizing of the analog video.
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05-15-2020, 07:44 AM
GrouseHiker GrouseHiker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Line TBC is usually resides inside a VCR or a camcorder.... External TBC or full frame TBC on the other hand corrects the timing of fields or frames....
Thanks for that explanation. So, for the purposes of player ratings, TBC (yes/no) would only indicate presence of line TBC. I was thinking some of the more sophisticated decks might included frame TBC, but in studying the EV-S7000 and the EVO-9850 it looks like these have no TBC.

I sent an email to Ira Perlow, author of the spreadsheet ("Digital8CamcorderFeatures") to check if there is a more recent version.... no response so far.

At this point, I guess it's up to the forum owners to decide whether or not an "Equipment Feedback" forum branch (with sticky posts for each model) would be of value.
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05-15-2020, 09:08 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is online now
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FWIW: The Sony EV-S7000 does include a TBC. It is selected ON/OFF via the menu system.

Based on the chip used on the digital processing board it appears to be a full field TBC (960 x 306 x 8 bit).
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05-15-2020, 11:02 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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The EVO-9850 does have a TBC as well, don't know how much storage it has.

The Sony EV-c2000e has a frame store for pause and trick play modes, but it lacks the full TBC correction on playback like it's big brother EV-S9000 has. Seems to blend fields together when playing at different speeds with the jog/shuttle wheel, the output doesn't go through it on normal playback.

I suspect based on the schematics that the later sony camcorders with TBC/DNR may have used a digital processor for decoding the video signal from the heads and not just for the TBC part like most VCRs did.
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05-15-2020, 12:00 PM
GrouseHiker GrouseHiker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
FWIW: The Sony EV-S7000 does include a TBC. It is selected ON/OFF via the menu system.

Based on the chip used on the digital processing board it appears to be a full field TBC (960 x 306 x 8 bit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The EVO-9850 does have a TBC as well, don't know how much storage it has.

The Sony EV-c2000e has a frame store for pause and trick play modes, but it lacks the full TBC correction on playback like it's big brother EV-S9000 has. Seems to blend fields together when playing at different speeds with the jog/shuttle wheel, the output doesn't go through it on normal playback.

I suspect based on the schematics that the later sony camcorders with TBC/DNR may have used a digital processor for decoding the video signal from the heads and not just for the TBC part like most VCRs did.
Thanks! instead of visually scanning the EV-S7000 manual, I downloaded a better copy and OCR'd it. Search revealed the menu choice mentioned. That's good, this one is back on my personal list of possibilities.

Regarding the "Ratings Sheet," it looks like the TBC column should show "F" for field-based or "L" for scan-line based.

Any ideas on how forum participants could collaborate on the "Digital8CamcorderFeatures" spreadsheet? I guess the mundane approach is to download it, update, and upload...

Also, the title of the sheet should be changed to "Digital8Hi8..."

Last edited by GrouseHiker; 05-15-2020 at 12:13 PM.
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  #20  
05-15-2020, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrouseHiker View Post
Here's an idea (maybe too idealistic):

For each device model number (or at lease the ones worthy of mention), a forum post is created where people can record their success or problems with that device. These "device" threads can include links to more extensive (existing or new) threads.

The Ratings sheet would include links to those equipment-specific threads - an "organic" database.

These equipment feedback threads might be under a separate forum branch.
Interesting.

Let me think about logistics, since I'd have to maintain it.

It would also tie into the glossary.

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