Quantcast Datavideo TBC alternatives? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
01-22-2020, 04:27 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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Datavideo TBC are very expensive. Is there any cheaper alternative for about 300$ and easy to find?
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  #2  
01-22-2020, 10:24 AM
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In addition to DataVideo, there's also Cypress, but at the same price point. Few other more obscure models, slightly less cost, but still not $300.

TBCs were always somewhat costly, but there are some TBC(ish) alternatives, some of which need modifications (mods), novice presetting (manual useless, confusing device for newbies). The DataVideo DVK units are on such item, but should be paired with the ES10/15 for true TBC(ish) performance. Depending on source, and other workflow hardware, some may suffice on their own, but it's very task specific.

ES10/15 does (mostly) line-ish work (not true line, MV holes), and DVK does weak frame. In combo, performs decently, though with quality drawbacks of the ES10/15 processing, posterizatin, and harsher filterining. But it's a budget option, when archival/best quality can be sacrificed for "good/decent" quality.

Least-worst option, far better than using nothing at all! Nothing is unacceptable.

And I PM'd you about something as well.

For anybody reading this thread, also see What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes if not already.

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  #3  
01-28-2020, 04:00 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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I found something about MP6000. It seems it has a TBC.
Here the instruction manual:
http://www.qed-productions.com/downl...000_manual.pdf

Page 6 describes the presence of"Built in TBC".
I also found a message on videohelp:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-Dedicated-TBC

But nothing about the nature of this tbc.
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  #4  
01-28-2020, 04:11 AM
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Remember, "TBC" is a loose term, and can mean almost anything.

Given DataVideo lineage, that TBC, if it exists, is probably weak, along the lines of the DVK units.

The DVK can, of course, be fortified by the ES10/15. ES signal output isn't cleanest, even if visual is nice. The DVK does not like untimed input, so the line work of the ES pre-filters it for the DVK. Decent TBC(ish), on a budget, though with add side effects of the ES (posterization, NR even when off, etc). It's not a true TBC replacement, but it can serve as TBC(ish) for analog conversions.

This MP-6000 is a DVD recorder. Does the TBC passthrough? Probably not. Uncommon feature. Only functions to create DVDs.

I wouldn't get anywhere near this unit.

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  #5  
01-28-2020, 08:36 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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I found also Datavideo SE-500. It seems it has a sort of TBC.
Here the manual:
http://www.sonotechnique.ca/media/wy...deo_SE-500.pdf

On page 18:
"The frozen image is a function of how the time base corrector (TBC, a.k.a. frame synchronizer) works. The SE-500 has a TBC at the Main Video Source and the Sub Video Source input on each channel. Their purpose is to stabilize the video signals as they come into the switcher, and to synchronize their timing so that they can be switched and otherwise combined with no disruption to the video signal. For more information on TBCs, see What is a frame synchronizer."

On Page 7:
"A frame synchronizer is a digital device that stores a frame of video in its memory and releases it at a very precise moment. These little devices are essential if you want to make a seamless switch from one video source to another. If the sources you are switching between are not synchronized with each other, the video image falls apart at the transition moment, and the result is not pretty.The SE-500 has a full frame synchronizer (also known as a time base corrector or TBC) at its Main and Sub Source inputs in each channel (4 Total) to insure switches without distortion and smooth, well-regulated video at its output. In addition to its digital memory, a TBC also has controls that affect the look of the video that passes through it. These controls are known as processing amplifiers, or proc amps; they control brightness, contrast, color, and tint, though these may have different names in different applications.For more information on some of these technical aspects, see the Appendix Tech Notes."

And on page 38:
"Quad Channel Time Base Correction - Full Frame Synchronization, 4:2:2, 13.5MHz"

-- merged --

SE-800 has dual channel TBC (page.6):
"A Dual channel TBC with YUV 4:2:2 Frame synchronizer for Composite, S (Y/C) and Component Y.U.V. inputs and outputs assures stable and high quality video from virtually any source. The SE-800 can serve as a sync reference for analog cameras, video projectors, scan converters, etc. "

https://resource.holdan.co.uk/Datavi...deo_SE-800.pdf

The same description is on the DVK-100 manual (page.29):
"Two Channel Full Frame TBC"

https://verleih.fhstp.ac.at/upload/M...1304930483.pdf
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  #6  
01-28-2020, 02:14 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Here is a demonstration of a similar console that known to work well as a TBC:
https://youtu.be/HEXLlqJQ7Oc
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  #7  
01-28-2020, 05:26 PM
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All of these devices have been discussed on the forum. For VHS conversion, each has weaknesses.

The SE-500, for example, was designed specifically for live-camera input. Maybe broadcoast source BetacamSP taype tapes. Even DV over analog. But not lowly consumer formats like VHS. That was what the DataVideo TBC-100 lineage gear was created for in the late 90s. What you're looking at are post-analog-world device intended for video houses still operating in analog or mixed analog/digital.

The Videotronics MX-1 is equally limited, many posts here have discussed it over the years. I believe it was NJRoadfan that gave us some in-depth on why it is weak, not suggested.

You're not asking anything new, and you will not receive different answers.

The only "DataVideo TBC alternatives", and with specific reference to usage with consumer analog sources (VHS, Video8/Hi8) are Cypress TBCs. And even then, Cypress from the 2000s, not 2010s, due to chip flaws of those latter generation devices.

What you're seemingly not understand is that not all TBCs are created equal, and that TBC is a wide term.

What sort of sources are you wanting to convert? VHS tapes? So far, you've mentioned nothing about your project. You cannot talk about a TBC in generic terms, conversations must be precise on the use case.

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  #8  
01-28-2020, 09:44 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Wonder if the black AVTool box can be converted to a green Cypress one by flashing the chip, Has anyone with coding skills tried to come up with a mod? Are the chips completely different so the contents of one cannot be dumped and loaded to the other?
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  #9  
01-28-2020, 09:46 PM
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Chips are completely different.

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  #10  
01-29-2020, 03:35 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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I don't want to invent hot water. I searched a lot on these products but I didn't find a definitive judgment. I have not read about real tests obtained by using them. In particular on SE-500 or MP6000 (yes, it has tbc passthrough), I never thought they could be comparable to a TB-1000/100, but it could be to a dvk, for example.
Yesterday my "mxo2 mini max" arrived. I was surprised at the quality and stability of the capture. I tested an old original vhs movie and a mounted svhs home video (not the original svhs-c tape). I connected my jvc s5800 in Y/C directly to mxo2. No frame drop, no lost sync, acceptable image quality. I wanna try to improve it, but above all, experimenting, I am a very curious person who likes to learn.

Last edited by ginopilotino; 01-29-2020 at 04:00 AM.
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  #11  
01-29-2020, 01:38 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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How do you capture to computer with MXO2? Are you using the ExpressCard adapter?
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  #12  
01-29-2020, 01:55 PM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
How do you capture to computer with MXO2? Are you using the ExpressCard adapter?
Pci-e card, I have expresscard too but I don’t use on a laptop. It’s installed in an hp z400.
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  #13  
01-29-2020, 02:08 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Wonder if the black AVTool box can be converted to a green Cypress one by flashing the chip, Has anyone with coding skills tried to come up with a mod? Are the chips completely different so the contents of one cannot be dumped and loaded to the other?
I don't think it would be impossible to alter the new one by reprogramming or replacing the ROM chip with a flash programmer. Granted deconstructing the machine code may be difficult. Whether it could fix the issue I don't know, I highly suspect it's a config error rather than chips being bad given how the error presents itself, but it's hard to say for sure. The A/D and D/A chips are the same from what I remember, not sure about the FPGA chip in the middle (it is for sure different in the TVOne 1-TBC). The memory chips differ but I don't know if it's relevant. It's all off-the-shelf chips hardware, though the SAA7114 chips are discontinued as far as I know.

It's possible there are some debug pins that would allow one to communicate with one or more of the chips on the board as well.
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  #14  
01-29-2020, 11:48 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Here is an interesting thread about alternative TBC's:
http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/vi...hp?f=3&t=20487
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  #15  
01-30-2020, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Here is an interesting thread about alternative TBC's:
http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/vi...hp?f=3&t=20487
Not really.

The MX02 is not a TBC, does not contain a TBC. So the OP in that thread is claiming nonsense. Some details are missing, and he jumped to conclusions. As such, he has created logical fallacy. ("John likes blue. John likes bananas. Therefore bananas must be blue.")

The 1T-TBC referenced in the thread is obviously a known-flawed 2010s Cypress.

The thread is claiming what we already know: TBC is required, and no Blackmagic cards will capture with out one. (Note that even when capturing WITH one, dropped frames have been reported by many people. The card is not designed for SD consumer analog sources, and does some weird stuff with SD footage.)

It goes on to discuss a Teranex appliance, and how it really needs pro sources, or at minimum higher/quality consumer sources. Again, nothing new to me.

Another poster claimed that Canopus ADVC-100 and 300 boxes contain TBC. That is malarkey. The ADVC-100 contains nothing at all. The 300 has an extremely weak line TBC that effectively does almost nothing.

You have to remember that I've been seeking TBC alternatives for 5+ years now, doing a lot of TBC research. None of the above is new to me. TBCs are often misunderstood, even by those working the video field. So a lot of what you read is wrong, and I've wasted many hours chasing down phantoms. Outside 90s / early 2000s DataVideo, or 2000s Cypress, it really is a dead zone for TBCs. Maybe a specific For.A here, a certain Kramer there. But that's really it, in terms of an effective TBC for VHS conversion.

TBCs are starting to remind me of classic cars. You want certain models, not just any random model.

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  #16  
01-30-2020, 02:56 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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What I don't understand is why capture devices manufacturers don't include TBC's in their capture devices, How hard to clone a cypress box and build it inside a capture device so the video get digitized in one single step, I'm not talking about the easy craps, I'm talking about brand names like Black Magic, Ensemble Design, Aja and the likes, People are paying over $300 for their devices anyway, so the market is there.
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  #17  
01-30-2020, 03:13 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Not really.

You have to remember that I've been seeking TBC alternatives for 5+ years now, doing a lot of TBC research. None of the above is new to me. TBCs are often misunderstood, even by those working the video field. So a lot of what you read is wrong, and I've wasted many hours chasing down phantoms. Outside 90s / early 2000s DataVideo, or 2000s Cypress, it really is a dead zone for TBCs. Maybe a specific For.A here, a certain Kramer there. But that's really it, in terms of an effective TBC for VHS conversion.

TBCs are starting to remind me of classic cars. You want certain models, not just any random model.
I love classic cars
Tell me more about some For.A or Kramer worth testing.
I found se-500 for about 180 euro here in italy, but it's a little too much for a test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
What I don't understand is why capture devices manufacturers don't include TBC's in their capture devices, How hard to clone a cypress box and build it inside a capture device so the video get digitized in one single step, I'm not talking about the easy craps, I'm talking about brand names like Black Magic, Ensemble Design, Aja and the likes, People are paying over $300 for their devices anyway, so the market is there.
Probably because they make products for proadcast sources and there is low request on vhs/betamax tbc devices nowdays.
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  #18  
01-30-2020, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
What I don't understand is why capture devices manufacturers don't include TBC's in their capture devices, How hard to clone a cypress box and build it inside a capture device so the video get digitized in one single step, I'm not talking about the easy craps, I'm talking about brand names like Black Magic, Ensemble Design, Aja and the likes, People are paying over $300 for their devices anyway, so the market is there.
Preaching to the choir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopilotino View Post
I love classic cars
Me too ... now only if I could afford one.

Quote:
Tell me more about some For.A or Kramer worth testing.
NTSC only.

Quote:
I found se-500 for about 180 euro here in italy, but it's a little too much for a test.
I'd do it for no more than $50 total shipped/taxed. But never seen one that low.

Quote:
Probably because they make products for proadcast sources and there is low request on vhs/betamax tbc devices nowdays.
Probably. But it still doesn't excuse the 2000s.

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  #19  
01-30-2020, 05:32 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
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First test. Jvc S5800>mxo2mini. Blow-up on an old tape given with an old newspaper
Virtualdub, no filter at all.


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  #20  
01-30-2020, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopilotino View Post
First test. Jvc S5800>mxo2mini. Blow-up on an old tape given with an old newspaper
Virtualdub, no filter at all.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to show. TBC test needs clips. And specific tests need an hour or more of capturing (and those do not need to be attached to forum posts).

I actually have an MX02 in my possession, and plan to re-evaluate it in early Feb.

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