Quantcast VHS analog capture with Blackmagic is black screen? - Page 2 - digitalFAQ Forum
Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Capture, Record, Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
02-12-2020, 07:01 PM
josem84 josem84 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 101
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Do you mean Audio-Video Desynchronization in the PC capture as lordsmurf interpreted?
I mean lost of vertical sync.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #22  
02-15-2020, 09:34 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Netherlands,
Posts: 321
Thanked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Just did a test with my Intensity Shuttle, a vcr that normaly did not work (bad sync) on the composite input, does work now with my new composite to HDMI adapter on the HDMI input of the Intensity Shuttle, output will be 1280x720p60 no matter the input... and works also with PAL60 on the input of this device, the result needs to be corrected to 4:3 ratio.
dirty borders are cropped by this converter. (overscan?)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
02-16-2020, 09:28 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,821
Thanked 301 Times in 280 Posts
What good does a $300 device like a BM intensity do if it is not doing the work of digitizing? How do you know what a composite to HDMI (not even S-Video) device with a crappy ADC is doing to the video? This is the worst way of capturing analog video such as VHS.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
02-17-2020, 03:56 PM
DePhoegon DePhoegon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Utah
Posts: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to DePhoegon
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopilotino View Post
It seems that this BM has a too many problems compared to the mxo2.
Honestly, from what little I could gather.. They seem to be a different class of product.

I also use BMD (Intensity line) as it suits this multi-application support while maintaining the best color reproduction (from what I gets into it) which is more important for me, and has proven to be the best for post editing.

Mxo2 seems geared for a different workflow, & with nothing against it what so ever. I doubt there are any real flaws to be had that are fundamental.
-- Also, i'm not replacing my Main PC with an intel based mac (which will likely be phased out because apple wants to nix hackintosh systems)
-- So very hard pass.. I don't want a device that's reliant on a singular OS, that requires a Certain 'type' of hardware for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImminentTax View Post
The Intensity Shuttle does not handle composite, or S-video well at all. between noise with both inputs, to considerable dot crawl especially along white/red boundaries with it's 2D comb filter on the composite input, if you can HDMI into it, it fares much better.
Actually that was my first really try.. that came up exceptionally empty.. The problem is I do not want nor care for the built in image manipulation & upscaling done by them. [Trying to find one that doesn't do this... well I couldn't find one honestly. That just converts the analog to digital.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdd View Post
DePhoegon if you have a USB3 Hub use it to get more stable power to the Blackmagic Intensity shuttle

my Blackmagic Intensity shuttle USB3 start to work much better when i did buy this powered usb 3 hub https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-.../dp/B004DVEWH4

and don´t use long usb3 cable
Thank you, though I've learn that lesson & devoted an entire USB3 to it. Though given that it works with newer systems perfectly analog & digital, it's power & behavior seem to be as it should. (I know the problem is with the input source)

Quote:
Originally Posted by josem84 View Post
It depends on the device. The cheap ones do have in fact a negative effect on the PQ. Mine has no noticeable side effects on PQ.
I do not want ANY processing of the image done, or as very little as possible. I am not saying they do bad things.. but I do not want an uncontrolled image processor going on if I can help it.
--Yes I realize my choice of VCR sux (am sorting my options atm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by traal View Post
Is there an automated way to find dropped frames after capture? What else do you do before you begin restoration? Right now I only check audio and luma levels and make sure I didn't accidentally keep cropping turned on during capture.
Honestly I only know this because I had a person project for a year or two. VideoReDo TV Suite is honestly exceptionally powerful at correcting & manipulating TV footage (TS & WTV), and a 'commercial scanner' that can be tweaked & fine tuned to detect commericals, blank/black frames, audio cuts, etc.
--- Honestly I have V5 & it's saved me more time & headache then ever. [going to get V6 for the improvements]
--- Their support team is actually pretty nice and helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
What good does a $300 device like a BM intensity do if it is not doing the work of digitizing? How do you know what a composite to HDMI (not even S-Video) device with a crappy ADC is doing to the video? This is the worst way of capturing analog video such as VHS.
Honestly,
-Image reproduction. The problem here is the consumer grade bullshit I have in the form a VCR.
=PS3/2 works absolutely perfectly on component & HDMI, and yes... a 720p60/59.994 limit is more then enough for consumer level work. (although it is capable of 1080i60/59.994 [1080p30/29.997], which is good for consumer uses, including streaming content.

-near zero impact on the CPU for capturing the footage to the BMD & as minimal overhead to system resources as possible depending on what is being done with it.
=The extreme majority of the resource use comes from writing that RAW data to the hdd/ssd
=Perfectly suited to a single system setup that is pulling multiple duties.

The PCI-e Version (of which I had to give to my cousin, when I got my new system [lost PCI-e slots, hold system]), also accelerates general transcoding with some programs (like iTunes).
-Similarly if a program is properly coded for it, the BMD can provide some of the fastest transcoding support & help lower system resource usage as well.
=I've seen the same results as well, from an inability to play a video file properly (due to sheer size alone) to playing it perfectly.

It also can help out DaVinci Resolve as well (no real shocker there)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
02-18-2020, 01:11 AM
ginopilotino ginopilotino is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 53
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DePhoegon View Post
Honestly, from what little I could gather.. They seem to be a different class of product.

I also use BMD (Intensity line) as it suits this multi-application support while maintaining the best color reproduction (from what I gets into it) which is more important for me, and has proven to be the best for post editing.
As I could see in some tests, intensity shuttle seems to suffers from poor colors and details using svideo or composite at least, compared to aiw's or mxo2, that seems to be near identical in that.

Quote:
Mxo2 seems geared for a different workflow, & with nothing against it what so ever. I doubt there are any real flaws to be had that are fundamental.
-- Also, i'm not replacing my Main PC with an intel based mac (which will likely be phased out because apple wants to nix hackintosh systems)
-- So very hard pass.. I don't want a device that's reliant on a singular OS, that requires a Certain 'type' of hardware for it.
mxo2 works great on pc with pci-e card. And it has a dedicated option to capture consumer formats. The only limit is that it officially works on win7, no win10 support. But it's not a problem for now.
Probably bm is a good card, but not for vhs/betamax capture.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
02-18-2020, 05:51 AM
DePhoegon DePhoegon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Utah
Posts: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to DePhoegon
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopilotino View Post
As I could see in some tests, intensity shuttle seems to suffers from poor colors and details using svideo or composite at least, compared to aiw's or mxo2, that seems to be near identical in that.
heh, well outside of some professional grade stuff. That is a reason I avoid composite & S-Video as much as possible where possible.
-- Though I've genuinely see it far more accurate then other solutions (though I've never seen a mxo2 personally), and even more so considering it's budget price when compared to solutions that would reliably compete against it.
(seriously a pci-e one new for me was 200$USD, in like 2014/2015{and is still supported in w10, even when they moved on to the newer models before w10 released}, and honestly single handily got me into video work (learning & personal projects mostly), and that same PCI-e card would still be in use if this damn'd system had a spare PCI-e x1 slot free not covered by the GPU)
== I know even they have better hardware.. but I've not needed or wanted 1080p60+ capture yet, nor is any of my projected projects ever going to go into that realm.
== Ya I know I recently put 300$ on the USB3 version, but I did that with the full intent of maintaining system compatibility & not being out a capture method until my hold system gets replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopilotino View Post
mxo2 works great on pc with pci-e card. And it has a dedicated option to capture consumer formats. The only limit is that it officially works on win7, no win10 support. But it's not a problem for now.
Probably bm is a good card, but not for vhs/betamax capture.
--- Ya, though I wouldn't worry about it too much. (I know there are far more powerful solutions that will get the job done exceptionally well, but ya know.. sometimes you don't need the top end to achieve what you want to get done in a reasonable time/cost)

well talk about a hard product to lookup >.> I seriously only found talk about it for macs. Though with all honesty.. the w7 only support is a non-starter for me.

as far as 'consumer formats' not entirely sure that means much of anything now really. >.> I am sure it has a detailed meaning.
-- Though honestly, I will only capture in RAW formats. I'd rather have the data to 'fix' minor errors with minimal impact.
== {ramble cut} There is a good reason I stuck with a finicky as hell BMD intensity Pro (PCI-e @first, & now a USB3 Shuttle), over other solutions...even when my only purpose was ps2/ps3 gameplay capture.
-even when those solutions where near plug & play at the time.


Though for now.. >.> I've found a temporary solution to the minor aspects of my problem.. even if it is more intensive.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
02-18-2020, 08:45 PM
josem84 josem84 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 101
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DePhoegon View Post


I do not want ANY processing of the image done, or as very little as possible. I am not saying they do bad things.. but I do not want an uncontrolled image processor going on if I can help it.
--Yes I realize my choice of VCR sux (am sorting my options atm)


There's no image processing done with the MV scrubber. That's not what it was designed for. It's purpose is to restore the vertical blank interval (which is where the Macrovision signal lives) so the AGC on the VCR doesn't go crazy. There's no image information in there.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
02-18-2020, 08:54 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,181
Thanked 1,994 Times in 1,720 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by josem84 View Post
There's no image processing done with the MV scrubber.
It processes the image. The very description of what it does describes some of the processing.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #29  
02-19-2020, 06:58 AM
josem84 josem84 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 101
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It processes the image. The very description of what it does describes some of the processing.
Again, a MV scrubber doesn't care about the image information part of the signal. It only cares about the first 20 lines. That’s where all these fake pulses are. There’s no A->D->A conversion done as seen with a TBC. Have you ever looked inside one of these boxes? Not much complexity there. You shouldn’t have any noticeable side effects in PQ with a good quality device. A time base corrector is not designed for removing Macrovision… A good scrubber is actually more transparent than your preferred TBC-1000 and it's way way cheaper. For $50 you can have all your copy protected tapes transferred to digital... well, most of them (95%).

Last edited by josem84; 02-19-2020 at 07:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
02-19-2020, 01:14 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,821
Thanked 301 Times in 280 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by josem84 View Post
Again, a MV scrubber doesn't care about the image information part of the signal. It only cares about the first 20 lines. That’s where all these fake pulses are. There’s no A->D->A conversion done as seen with a TBC. Have you ever looked inside one of these boxes? Not much complexity there. You shouldn’t have any noticeable side effects in PQ with a good quality device. A time base corrector is not designed for removing Macrovision… A good scrubber is actually more transparent than your preferred TBC-1000 and it's way way cheaper. For $50 you can have all your copy protected tapes transferred to digital... well, most of them (95%).
I'm not too sure how it's possible to split and replace lines from an analog frame without first digitizing it then reconstructing the frame and convert back to analog, I would be interested to play with one these if it's 100% analog, again I don't see how that is possible.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
02-19-2020, 09:03 PM
DePhoegon DePhoegon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Utah
Posts: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to DePhoegon
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...O_to_HDMI.html

Does anyone know much about this product, or if it would work& produce a stable signal for use with a BMD?

Last edited by DePhoegon; 02-19-2020 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Derp, & partly unsure
Reply With Quote
  #32  
02-19-2020, 09:18 PM
traal traal is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 178
Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I'm not too sure how it's possible to split and replace lines from an analog frame without first digitizing it then reconstructing the frame and convert back to analog
Maybe something like this:

Quote:
Analog delay lines are applied in many types of signal processing circuits; for example the PAL television standard uses an analog delay line to store an entire video scanline.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
02-19-2020, 11:13 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 791
Thanked 201 Times in 162 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DePhoegon View Post
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...O_to_HDMI.html

Does anyone know much about this product, or if it would work& produce a stable signal for use with a BMD?

Comprehensive is an old Audio brand name that was known for its Studio Amps and power conditioners. They changed things up about 40 or 50 years ago and started offering video products, climbing the ladder into professional and semi-studio to broadcast gear. They were mostly analog but got into Digital at the turn of the Century like everyone else.. they had a broad.. very broad product line.. they were kind of like those hair dryer companies that also made clock radios.. they did everything. Its not a ding.. but focus was not not in their vocabulary.

I "think".. because I wasn't there.. but they seemed to semi-specialize in Church projection equipment and scalers for a time. I use some surplus Kramer Scalers to combine signal inputs from many sources and display them on hdmi monitors.

They are better known today as Kramer.

Kramer has a drastically reduced product line today.. there are more different Kramer products still sold on eBay than the sum total of their current catalog. They did a bit of everything from the exotic to the weird, to the "what were they thinking?" Ronco.. with Ginsu knives comes to mind.. they were kind of like that.

I don't know if Kramer was always an Israeli company but I think it is today. They shipped product all over the world and their products, even on eBay still can be found all over the planet in every nook and corner imaginable.

Basically what you pointed at.. is a Scaler.. it digitizes the analog video and then doubles and triples analog signal swatches as digitized pixels and trys to anti-alias without guidance the low resolution signal into a high resolution HDMI signal, going from 480i to 720p I would guess.. any higher it would have to deliberately "blurr" the edges of the pixels or it would look chunky.

The alternative to that is a Scaler with "controls" like a proc-amp has, or sync and polarizer control over the way the Scaler chooses to start the frame or field.. shifting it back and forth.. inverting it up down, all around. The human eye can often make better decisions based on appearance than a dumb circuit. So a passive Scaler with no controls is the bottom of the quality totem pole. Semi-smart Scalers can use a microprocessor and algorithm to make judgement calls.. but those can cost hundreds of dollars.. but if the intended customer doesn't have the skills and it produces a better picture for them.. they can decide its worth it. The best Scalers have both, an auto-pilot mode, or co-pilot "assist" mode via Profiles, and manual controls for tweaking the image and saving those across reboots or power ups. The Austin Powers uber vehicle version of a Scaler even has "remote control" or serial ports on the back to hook it up via a cable to a PC or WiFi network.. those are the kind that go into Churches.

Up-rezzing.. then down rezzing to capture detail is bound to cause artifact'ing and kind of a waste of time.. but some people like to do it.. its kind of like pick your poison... to each their own.

I think most people would say there are cheaper ways to Doublin.. and with better results for less money.

Last edited by jwillis84; 02-19-2020 at 11:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
02-20-2020, 02:52 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 212
Thanked 70 Times in 52 Posts
A little more info about Kramer from wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramer_Electronics
Reply With Quote
  #35  
02-20-2020, 04:22 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: College Station, TX
Posts: 791
Thanked 201 Times in 162 Posts
Sounds like Comprehensive was possibly an older company that got bought out or assumed by Kramer, a little like Sierra Video.. but maybe not as recognized, since they were primarily audio.

That the name is being used today on a video product is innovative, if historically updating the logo.

I haven't seen the Tools logo on any Kramer boxes for a while now.. so maybe Comprehensive is taking its place?

In any event.. I'd still consider it a simplified version of a Scaler.. possibly with only one setting.

As a format converter, s-video to hdmi.. it can do that, it looks like a steel box.. and it has a switch. A notch above the $11 usd plastic dongle that people might other wise use.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
02-23-2020, 12:27 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Netherlands,
Posts: 321
Thanked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DePhoegon View Post
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...O_to_HDMI.html

Does anyone know much about this product, or if it would work& produce a stable signal for use with a BMD?
Could work... I recently did a test with a converter, (Marmitek AH31) and a crappy VHS VCR which didn't worked before in combination with my Intensity, did work much better, but not perfect, the AH31 is about 60$ and not much larger than a matchbox,
Also i can't find any specs about your VCR, which outputs does it have ? are you shure you have all the output settings for the video signal correctly set ? sometimes you can set different modes, and with these you get other options in other menu items of the vcr.

btw. converters and scalers come in different qualities too, it's the money you want to spend to it, or get a vcr with HDMI output or component output, there are only a very few of them, but they do exist.

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 02-23-2020 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
02-23-2020, 01:42 PM
DePhoegon DePhoegon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Utah
Posts: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to DePhoegon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
Could work... I recently did a test with a converter, (Marmitek AH31) and a crappy VHS VCR which didn't worked before in combination with my Intensity, did work much better, but not perfect, the AH31 is about 60$ and not much larger than a matchbox,
Also i can't find any specs about your VCR, which outputs does it have ? are you shure you have all the output settings for the video signal correctly set ? sometimes you can set different modes, and with these you get other options in other menu items of the vcr.

btw. converters and scalers come in different qualities too, it's the money you want to spend to it, or get a vcr with HDMI output or component output, there are only a very few of them, but they do exist.
The singular problem with that one you listed is that it 'scales' it to 720p, which is exactly what I want to avoid. I am looking forward to testing it myself.

full RCA (video w/ L&R audio)

Past that, it seems to work with it just fine, outside the tapes that are in poor shape. [which cause my issue]

it keeps selecting the correct mode for the tapes & puts out a constant 59.997i from the VHS side.

I am tempted to try this first (and yes.. it painfully … and almost frustrating at how long it took to find this)

Composite (RCA) to HDMI Converter - RadioShack
-- a real shame it was so painful to find, and I don't have one anywhere near me. X.x shipping it is.

Last edited by DePhoegon; 02-23-2020 at 02:09 PM. Reason: actual working link
Reply With Quote
  #38  
02-23-2020, 02:04 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,236
Thanked 318 Times in 271 Posts
If you want to got he HDMI route, a DVD-recorder + HDMI splitter may be a safer route than trying random upscalers.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
02-23-2020, 02:08 PM
DePhoegon DePhoegon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Utah
Posts: 8
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to DePhoegon
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
If you want to got he HDMI route, a DVD-recorder + HDMI splitter may be a safer route than trying random upscalers.
.. Did you even look at the product? it's not an upscaler. I avoid them because it's just another step to content with when I do editing of it.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
02-23-2020, 02:12 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,236
Thanked 318 Times in 271 Posts
Sorry meant to write converter. Works in the same way just without the scaling part.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Black screen on AIW X600 Pro composite/svideo inputs? keaton Capture, Record, Transfer 25 08-20-2019 07:32 AM
Panasonic AG-1970 screen turns black? Chickensalad39 Video Hardware Repair 20 12-14-2018 09:28 AM
DVD freezes at black screen, locks up player? koberulz Author, Make Menus, Slideshows, Burn 0 11-18-2018 10:24 AM
VirtualDub and Hauppauge USB Live2 black screen? Shane Capture, Record, Transfer 5 03-21-2017 08:19 AM
Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro HDMI and Analog Editing Card metaleonid Capture, Record, Transfer 1 02-01-2012 05:45 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:41 AM