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-   -   VHS analog capture with Blackmagic is black screen? (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10354-vhs-analog-capture.html)

DePhoegon 02-10-2020 05:58 PM

VHS analog capture with Blackmagic is black screen?
 
My setup
Acer TC-780 (w/ 16GB ram)
-500GB SSD / 7.4TB 4 HDD partition (via Stablebit)
USB3 Blackmagic Intensity shuttle
-Black Magic Media Express // DaVinci Resolve Studio
JVC HD-VP683U

The problem I am having is quite literally my Capture device (BMD Intensity shuttle) is black screening the VCR menu & I am having issues with a seemingly random selection of VHS tapes having blank frames end up spread-out within the capture. (no matter the source that can open the device, VLC player & OBS tested directly)

I am looking for TBC solutions, but have come up exceptionally empty handed with any useful information.

I'm looking for something that can produce a clean timing signal so my device doesn't drop the audio & bonus if I can get the VCR menu to show up in the capture (so I can actually fine tune my vcr settings without the need of a TV monitor on the same desk)

Name:
AVToolbox AVT8710 - is one I've come across, TBC wise.. there hasn't really been anything or reviews on how it works or how well it works with a Intensity Shuttle (or Pro)
Sima GoDVD CT- 1/2/100/200 have cropped up & proven interesting getting my attention on 'producing a constant stream'* [half finished thought]

I'm more at a loss of frustration than anything else. I want to avoid any upscalers as I can and honestly prefer to keep the footage @ the resolution it was stored at in the VHS tape. (mine being NTSC) @ SD (720x486)

There any solutions that have measurable results without changing the Capture PC/Device?
-- it works perfectly for newer analog devices. [I just need to get these blank screens to stop or a way to fix them]

latreche34 02-10-2020 06:05 PM

Try a DVD recorder like the ES15 in the stream.

lordsmurf 02-11-2020 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 66656)
Try a DVD recorder like the ES15 in the stream.

That will not work, at least not reliably. The ES15 (or ES10) is not a TBC, and does not contain a framesync TBC. It has some line TBC(ish) functionality, but that's it. The BM boxes choke due to lack of signal sync. Frame TBC corrects the signal, line TBC corrects the image. BM boxes require signal correction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DePhoegon (Post 66655)
My setup
Acer TC-780 (w/ 16GB ram)
-500GB SSD / 7.4TB 4 HDD partition (via Stablebit)
USB3 Blackmagic Intensity shuttle
-Black Magic Media Express // DaVinci Resolve Studio
JVC HD-VP683U

The VCR is a major weak point, not at all suggested. Worse yet, JVC and Panasonic made some of the worst consumer VHS VCRs. The is completely opposite of how they may some of the best S-VHS VCRs ever. And you really need to use an S-VHS VCR for conversion.

See: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ing-guide.html

Blackmagic cards are also problematic with SD soruces, VHS especially, and are known to dupe/drop frames without reporting. You want see it until frame-by-frame editing the footage. It can disrupt motion when casually viewing, viewers wil know something is wrong.

Quote:

The problem I am having is quite literally my Capture device (BMD Intensity shuttle) is black screening the VCR menu & I am having issues with a seemingly random selection of VHS tapes having blank frames end up spread-out within the capture. (no matter the source that can open the device, VLC player & OBS tested directly)
This is lack of TBC.

Quote:

I am looking for TBC solutions, but have come up exceptionally empty handed with any useful information.
See: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...time-base.html

And then I currently have some TBCs in the marketplace subforum. :wink2:

Quote:

I'm looking for something that can produce a clean timing signal so my device doesn't drop the audio & bonus if I can get the VCR menu to show up in the capture (so I can actually fine tune my vcr settings without the need of a TV monitor on the same desk)
This is both a TBC and capture card issue. Some capture cards choke on VCR menus, or even test patterns. The cards were flawed in design, and expect only a perfect 29.970 input, and will severely drop or dupe on anything more or less (including the VHS footage, which is never perfect 29.970). The BM is apparently one such card.

Quote:

Name:
AVToolbox AVT8710 - is one I've come across, TBC wise.. there hasn't really been anything or reviews on how it works or how well it works with a Intensity Shuttle (or Pro)
Only buy/use green models, not the flawed black units.
See: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-...-8710-doa.html

Quote:

Sima GoDVD CT- 1/2/100/200 have cropped up & proven interesting getting my attention on 'producing a constant stream'* [half finished thought]
Do not buy/use this. It's not a TBC.

Quote:

I'm more at a loss of frustration than anything else. I want to avoid any upscalers as I can and honestly prefer to keep the footage @ the resolution it was stored at in the VHS tape. (mine being NTSC) @ SD (720x486)
Transferring VHS is usually not an overly difficult process, but only with the right hardware in place. A proper hardware workflow. Specific VCRs, TBCs, and capture cards. If you stray from this formula, you'll just give yourself grief. Low-end VHS VCR, no TBC, not suggested capture cards = personal video hell.

Quote:

There any solutions that have measurable results without changing the Capture PC/Device?
-- it works perfectly for newer analog devices. [I just need to get these blank screens to stop or a way to fix them]
Regardless of device, you need a TBC. But some cards reacts worse, whether or not TBC is in the workflow. Blackmagic is an expensive cards that works poorly with VHS. Inversely, there are quite a few USB cards for $150 or less that capture without issues (in WinXP/7/8/10).

jjdd 02-11-2020 07:59 AM

DePhoegon if you have a USB3 Hub use it to get more stable power to the Blackmagic Intensity shuttle

my Blackmagic Intensity shuttle USB3 start to work much better when i did buy this powered usb 3 hub https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-.../dp/B004DVEWH4

and don“t use long usb3 cable

lordsmurf 02-11-2020 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjdd (Post 66677)
DePhoegon if you have a USB3 Hub use it to get more stable power to the Blackmagic Intensity shuttle

my Blackmagic Intensity shuttle USB3 start to work much better when i did buy this powered usb 3 hub https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-.../dp/B004DVEWH4

and don“t use long usb3 cable

All good advice, however...

None of that will affect black-frame on VHS, for which the direct cause is lack of TBC. :book:

jjdd 02-11-2020 09:16 AM

Quote:

None of that will affect black-frame on VHS, for which the direct cause is lack of TBC
yes at least the es10 or es15 :)

ginopilotino 02-11-2020 09:20 AM

It seems that this BM has a too many problems compared to the mxo2.

hodgey 02-11-2020 09:55 AM

As noted, a DVD recorder like a panasonic es10/es15 can help stabilize video signal and avoid the flashes, at for tapes without copy protection. (Though some can have side effects and/or brightness issues in some cases). In PAL land at least you even can capture from the component or HDMI (with HDMI splitter to avoid HDCP) output, not sure if all NTSC ones support 480i over component and/or hdmi, in that case use S-Video out instead. I've found the BM to work okay in this sort of setup (for PAL at least), though I had issues with noise on the S-Video in. Nowadays I use it to capture using the HDMI out from either a Sony RDR-HX750, or Panasonic DMR-EH57

ImminentTax 02-11-2020 05:08 PM

The Intensity Shuttle does not handle composite, or S-video well at all. between noise with both inputs, to considerable dot crawl especially along white/red boundaries with it's 2D comb filter on the composite input, if you can HDMI into it, it fares much better.

josem84 02-12-2020 10:19 AM

Don’t buy a TBC unless you need to. An ES10 has frame sync capabilities and will work just fine for the vast majority of tapes. It only chokes on really nasty tapes. I have a large collection of tapes (+8000) in almost every format: VHS, Betamax, V2000, Betacam, 8mm…). Only a small percentage needed the help of my TBC-1000. The edge of these devices are with the most problematic tapes with lots of time base errors. As for MV… just put a scrubber in front of your ES10 and voilą.
You guys are spending high $xxx on something you really don’t need and think you will be recovering all your investment when reselling it. You won’t…

I’ve discussed this same topic with a good friend of mine who happens to work in the broadcast industry and he agreed on this 100%. Only those dealing constantly with really nasty tapes will benefit from a full frame TBC. You will need though a good S-VHS deck with line level TBC/NR circuitry. This is not optional.

And for the record… I own myself a TBC-1000. I only use it for stripping Macrovision when my scrubber has problems doing so, which is not very often. And for those tapes that are really in bad shape. For the rest, the ES10 is more than enough.

lordsmurf 02-12-2020 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josem84 (Post 66706)
Don’t buy a TBC unless you need to. An ES10 has frame sync capabilities and will work just fine for the vast majority of tapes.

This is not correct. We've been over this before. The ES10/15 has both a strong AND weak line TBC(ish) ability, with the "ish" because it passes errors due to anti-copy. That gaping hole allows both the artificial anti-copy errors, and naturally occurring video errors, to pass through, thus causing capture problems. The signal is still dirty. The frame sync is only active on DVD recording, and is not passthrough (though I'll need to refer to the spec sheets to confirm, been a while since I saw it). At any rate, frame sync is NOT frame sync TBC, there is a big difference, with the former being fairly weak.

Quote:

As for MV… just put a scrubber in front of your ES10 and voilą.
That's terrible advice. Most of those "scrubbers" wildly alter image quality, especially luma gain.

Quote:

I’ve discussed this same topic with a good friend of mine who happens to work in the broadcast industry and he agreed on this 100%.
Broadcasters don't often deal with consumer sources like VHS.

Quote:

Only those dealing constantly with really nasty tapes
Just FYI, "really nasty tapes" is a generic nothing of a statement. However, all VHS tapes contain timing errors, dropouts, grain, chroma noise, and often some degree of first-line timing (which causes tearing and/or bouncing/"jitter").

Quote:

You will need though a good S-VHS deck with line level TBC/NR circuitry. This is not optional.
Yes.

Quote:

And for the record… I own myself a TBC-1000. I only use it for stripping Macrovision when my scrubber has problems doing so, which is not very often. And for those tapes that are really in bad shape. For the rest, the ES10 is more than enough.
The ES10 has drawbacks, as it is heavy-handed with image processing (even when NR is "off", as it never truly turns off), resulting in posterization (color compression, resulting in banding) and heavy-handed temporal NR (far worse than JVC, which some folks already gripe about, even though it's minimalist). But heavy-handed is the entire reason it was originally suggested: ES10/15 units can often correct tearing, whereas JVC line TBCs would have buffers overrun, and actually make the errors worse. It's a "least-worst" scenario. The ES10/15 downsides was far better than tearing/jitter/timing issues.

That workflow is
JVC (TBC off)
> ES10/15 for line timing correction
> full-frame TBC
> capture card or DVD recorders

So again, the ES10/15 is a DVD recorder with some interesting features, not a TBC.

Not a TBC.

NOT A TBC! :P

Yes, sometimes the ES10/15 alone suffices, rarely, and the tapes squeak by with decent conversion. But more often than not, the person is missing something. For example, not seeing the flaws on a tiny PC preview window or phone (and not watching the footage on a normal 55" HDTV).

Quote:

And for the record… I own myself a TBC-1000. I only use it for stripping Macrovision when my scrubber has problems doing so, which is not very often. And for those tapes that are really in bad shape. For the rest, the ES10 is more than enough.
Why have a TBC-1000, and not use it? That makes no sense. (And if the TBC-1000 looks worse, then it's just defective. If you got it for eBay/etc, I'm not surprised.)

msgohan 02-12-2020 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josem84 (Post 66706)
DmAn ES10 has frame sync capabilities and will work just fine for the vast majority of tapes. It only chokes on really nasty tapes.

What does a "choke" look like?

I've never had an issue with my DMR-ES15 or ES25. Even when fed VCR analog tuner noise or unrecorded VHS (both are non-video signals) they sample it into video, add Hsync & Vsync, and downstream capture devices never drop frames.

josem84 02-12-2020 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 66707)

That's terrible advice. Most of those "scrubbers" wildly alter image quality, especially luma gain.

It depends on the device. The cheap ones do have in fact a negative effect on the PQ. Mine has no noticeable side effects on PQ.

hodgey 02-12-2020 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan (Post 66708)
What does a "choke" look like?

One thing I have encountered 2-3 times with the ES10 (also happened when testing it with my EH57, pioneer/sonys and in-VCR TBC) was horizontal sync positions being misdetected. One of them I remember was footage from inside a fighter jet. The line-TBCs would misdetect the hsync and messing up many of the lines in the picture, the ES10 being the most extreme (as it has the widest tolerance) making like half of the lines looking correct, while the rest were shifted to the middle of the image. Had to forego a line-tbc on parts of that tape. This seems very rare though.

lordsmurf 02-12-2020 10:57 AM

To add, the ES10/15 alone will not suffice. That's just wrong advice. It has no frame sync TBC, and is why ES10/15 output can drop frames. However, the DataVideo DVK units, or TBC-5000, will add the frame ability. (Inversely, those units tend to choke on line-untimed signals, and often will not suffice alone either, especially on non-master VHS sources.) When ES10/15+DVK is in use, that gives a 99% effective performance, though again with the aforementioned negatives of the ES10/15 processing. But if you want to have TBC, without buying one, it suffices as a "poor man's TBC".

This setup is generally best for straight archiving, not restoration. The ES10 processing makes restoration exceedingly difficult, though the damage doesn't quite rise to the level of DV conversion (50%+ loss), or lossy compression.

As I often have to mention, I don't own TBCs because I like to buy expensive hardware. In fact, these discoveries were precisely because I wanted to avoid buying TBCs. However, it just wasn't feasible. It is what it is. Suck it up, buy the TBC. Use it, resell it, it holds resale value. If your hobby is video, then just realize hobbies cost money. And a $500-$1k TBC is inexpensive compared to the equipment for most hobbies (cameras, cars, vinyl/movie collections, etc).

I'm all for economical solutions. But the standard JVC S-VHS VCR > external TBC > capture card is the economical solution!
Again, as covered here: What’s in a Professional Video Workflow to Convert Analog Videotapes?

josem84 02-12-2020 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan (Post 66708)
What does a "choke" look like?

I've never had an issue with my DMR-ES15 or ES25. Even when fed VCR analog tuner noise or unrecorded VHS (both are non-video signals) they sample it into video, add Hsync & Vsync, and downstream capture devices never drop frames.

I've had issues with some tapes... losing sync. Tapes with severe tracking problems. That's what I was referring to with "choke".

lordsmurf 02-12-2020 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josem84 (Post 66712)
I've had issues with some tapes... losing sync.
That's what I was referring to with "choke".

This is caused by dropped frames.
Dropped frames are caused by lack of frame sync TBC.
This is why ES10/15 alone does not work.

I have a feeling that many of your "fine" captures are actually not fine, and are dropping frames, but the skew isn't ye noticeable. Or you've not closely previewed the captures. As mentioned, if not watching, you miss things. I made the mistake early on of capturing video, even monitoring the frame drop counter, and later learning the capture was fubar. BTW, this is why we have a post-capture proofing step, careful timeline scrubbing. I caught 3 capture errors on a 50+ tape project last weekend (intermittent mistracking). Most people are not that diligent, and only notice errors much later. Recaptures are fine.

traal 02-12-2020 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 66713)
I made the mistake early on of capturing video, even monitoring the frame drop counter, and later learning the capture was fubar. BTW, this is why we have a post-capture proofing step, careful timeline scrubbing.

Is there an automated way to find dropped frames after capture? What else do you do before you begin restoration? Right now I only check audio and luma levels and make sure I didn't accidentally keep cropping turned on during capture.

josem84 02-12-2020 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 66713)

This is caused by dropped frames.
Dropped frames are caused by lack of frame sync TBC.
This is why ES10/15 alone does not work.

This is caused by a screwed up tape, period. A really bad tape can cause a TBC-1000 to choke too. Does that mean that the TBC-1000 isn’t a full frame TBC? Of course not. Please re-read my posts. Where did I state that the ES10 was a full frame TBC? What I said is that it provides basic frame sync, which usually is more than enough with most tapes. My advice to newbies... check your tapes before spending any serious money on TBC's. And I'm not alone here, there are quite a few video pros who also think that full frame TBC's are kind of overkill for amateur use, having the option to buy a cheap DVD recorder...


Quote:


I have a feeling that many of your "fine" captures are actually not fine, and are dropping frames, but the skew isn't ye noticeable. Or you've not closely previewed the captures. As mentioned, if not watching, you miss things. I made the mistake early on of capturing video, even monitoring the frame drop counter, and later learning the capture was fubar. BTW, this is why we have a post-capture proofing step, careful timeline scrubbing. I caught 3 capture errors on a 50+ tape project last weekend (intermittent mistracking). Most people are not that diligent, and only notice errors much later. Recaptures are fine.

And please, don't make assumptions on someone you don't even know, not knowing what his workflow looks like. It sounds kind of arrogant.

msgohan 02-12-2020 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josem84 (Post 66712)
I've had issues with some tapes... losing sync. Tapes with severe tracking problems. That's what I was referring to with "choke".

Do you mean Audio-Video Desynchronization in the PC capture as lordsmurf interpreted?

Or are you referring to Vsync/Hsync? Have you encountered any frame drops on the capture card side with the DMR-ES10 in-line?

As you say, any TBC will drop/insert frames internally when the input is bad enough. But the output SIGNAL coming from the buffered DAC should be stable regardless, even if the video within that stable signal is FUBAR. :hmm:


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