Quantcast Distortion on top with JVC HR-S9700EK? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
03-02-2020, 05:45 AM
benzio benzio is offline
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Hello,
I have this problem of distorsion of the top lines at random times (see attachment).

My setup is: JVC HR-S9700EK -> Panasonic ES10 -> ATI Tv Wonder -> Virtualdub

I obtain this strange distortion when I put on the tbc.
When I turn off the tbc, instead, there are little flashes of brightness on the whole frame, but there's no distortion.

(Same when I don't do the Passthrough)

I assume that I have some faulty part of the VCR... What may cause this behaviour? I changed the pinch roller recently and I cleaned the video heads properly.


Note: I also have a Panasonic HS1000. When I play the vhs on that VCR the result is noisier, so I prefer the JVC, but those lines (or flashes) are not present.


Thank you!


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File Type: avi TEST.avi (59.71 MB, 35 downloads)
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  #2  
03-02-2020, 06:32 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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When you turn on the tbc from the JVC do you have used the es-10?
The es-10 can only do his magic if the jvc tbc is off. Same for the panasonic hs-1000.

Could you upload samples with:
Panasonic HS-1000 (tbc on)-capture card
Panasonic Hs-1000 (tbc off)-ES10-capture card
JVC (tbc off)-es10-capture card
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  #3  
03-02-2020, 06:42 AM
benzio benzio is offline
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Wow I didn't know that!
I've always used line TBC + ES10 because I thought that if i didn't want to remove macrovision (I have only home made vhs) this setup would be almost the same as a Line TBC + TBC1000 (excluding the macrovision removal).

The test I've attached is JVC Line Tbc + Es10

If I do JVC Line tbc (off) + ES10 there are little brightness flashes instead of top distorsions.

I can make the tests you are saying next weekend!

This is Panasonic HS1000 (Tbc ON) + ES10


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File Type: avi TEST2.avi (26.18 MB, 16 downloads)
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  #4  
03-02-2020, 08:52 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzio View Post
Wow I didn't know that!
I've always used line TBC + ES10 because I thought that if i didn't want to remove macrovision (I have only home made vhs) this setup would be almost the same as a Line TBC + TBC1000 (excluding the macrovision removal).
It mostly is, the ES10 will still help with by outputting a stable frame rate. The TBC in the VCRs (with a few exceptions) only correct line lengths and horizontal synchronization and I think they can to skip lines as well if they're too off. Don't know the exact details but I know the HS1000 has a trimpot to adjust "noise gate". Without the ES10 you may still get frame drops on transitions between recordings, if the vertical sync is corrupted or missing and other signal errors.

I have seen the PAL ES10 causing flashing brightness on a very bad tape, though in that case the alternative of not using it was worse.

The distorted image you see with the TBC on is due to the TBC in the VCR being unable to recover fast enough from the distortion caused by the switch between the two video heads reading the video off the tape. The ES10 has much more buffer space so it can handle more easily. I don't think there is anything wrong with the VCR, this error can be a result of differences in tape tension between the recording and playback machine (can't find reference right now.) My experience is also that the NV-HS1000's TBC is little a bit better at dealing with it than the one on JVC decks.

Last edited by hodgey; 03-02-2020 at 09:26 AM.
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  #5  
03-02-2020, 09:12 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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If the VCR tbc is on the es-10 is useless and I think for jitter correction you can't find anything better as the es-10.
Another thing if you use a Panasonic-ES10 from Europe (Germany). All analog outputs have an error. Only the output from the scart connector 1 works correct. You'll need a scart adapter to use the svideo output from the output 1.
All other outputs have brightness flashing errors.
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  #6  
03-02-2020, 09:33 AM
benzio benzio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If the VCR tbc is on the es-10 is useless and I think for jitter correction you can't find anything better as the es-10.
Another thing if you use a Panasonic-ES10 from Europe (Germany). All analog outputs have an error. Only the output from the scart connector 1 works correct. You'll need a scart adapter to use the svideo output from the output 1.
All other outputs have brightness flashing errors.
Oh, that's an important issue!

So if i go from VCR to ES10 with S-Video I have to output from ES10 to the capture card with Scart if I want some benefit?
In that way I lose the better details of S-Video wiring, right?

By now I have the video IN on ES10 with S-Video in the rear, and video OUT with S-Video in the rear.
There is also a S-Video OUT Port in the front, but if I use that port I notice some artifacts and diagonal noise.

Are you saying that outputting with S-Video does nothing to the signal (it doesn't correct anything) and to have proper signal correction I have to use neither the composite, but the scart adaptor?
Isn't it much worse quality?

Thank you for teaching me those things!
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  #7  
03-02-2020, 10:23 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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I don't know which Es-10 you use. My ES-10 (Germany)PAL!!! has on the front s-video/composite/audio inputs (av3) no outputs.
On the rear there are s-video in/out, composite in/out, audio in/out (av4),component out, scart tv(av1), scart decoder/ext (av2).
For the input you should use the front av3 inputs and for the output to the capture card you should use the scart 1 connector.

With the scart connector you can use both composite or s-video (you can switch between both in the menue settings).
You'll need something like this:
https://www.amazon.de/Umschalter-Chi...=ce-de&sr=1-53

or

https://www.allekabel.de/scart-kabel...profigold.html
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  #8  
03-02-2020, 10:35 AM
benzio benzio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
I don't know which Es-10 you use. My ES-10 (Germany)PAL!!! has on the front s-video/composite/audio inputs (av3) no outputs.
On the rear there are s-video in/out, composite in/out, audio in/out (av4),component out, scart tv(av1), scart decoder/ext (av2).
For the input you should use the front av3 inputs and for the output to the capture card you should use the scart 1 connector.

With the scart connector you can use both composite or s-video (you can switch between both in the menue settings).
You'll need something like this:
https://www.amazon.de/Umschalter-Chi...=ce-de&sr=1-53

or

https://www.allekabel.de/scart-kabel...profigold.html
OH sorry... I made confusion!!! Read my message with Input/Output Switched!!

I inteded that if I use AV3 (video in s-video front) i see diagonal noise.
If I use AV4 (video in s-video rear) i don't see any noise.

Last edited by benzio; 03-02-2020 at 10:51 AM.
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  #9  
03-03-2020, 03:36 PM
josem84 josem84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If the VCR tbc is on the es-10 is useless and I think for jitter correction you can't find anything better as the es-10.
Another thing if you use a Panasonic-ES10 from Europe (Germany). All analog outputs have an error. Only the output from the scart connector 1 works correct. You'll need a scart adapter to use the svideo output from the output 1.
All other outputs have brightness flashing errors.
Where did you get that info from...? I have 2 ES10's (EC-S + EG-K -Germany-) and another ES20 and I haven't experienced those issues using the AV4 input/output. Is that source reliable?
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  #10  
03-04-2020, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josem84 View Post
Where did you get that info from...? I have 2 ES10's (EC-S + EG-K -Germany-) and another ES20 and I haven't experienced those issues using the AV4 input/output. Is that source reliable?
Which parts of his statement?

Only the 1st line TBC in a chain will work. So if the JVC is on, the ES10/15 will have no effect. (Noting that the ES10 isn't necessarily a true line, but about as close as you can get, due to anti-copy/Macrovision carving). In order for the ES10/15 to correct the signal, the JVC/Panasonic VCR line TBC must be off.

And for those wondering "why get a S-VHS VCR then?". Well, at that point, other aspects of the VCR come into play. It's the transport, head quality, other deck values. The reason for those recommended decks is not just because of TBC.

And remember that the ES10/15 is ideal for "as needed". Meaning VCR TBC will probably be on more than not, ES10/15 not in the workflow chain for all tapes.

Though with the understand that for some folks it may serve as a "poor man's TBC", and a decent 99% functionality when paired with the DataVideo DVK/5000 units. And understanding that the ES10/15 alone will rarely suffice as a pure TBC replacement, as it is just a crippled-but-strong line TBC, with mere weak frame sync (not frame sync TBC) as you find with most all DVD recorders.

The ES20/25 is so weak that it's useless. Just another unremarkable low-end DVD recorder.

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  #11  
03-04-2020, 04:30 AM
benzio benzio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Which parts of his statement?
What about the part about the line inputs and outputs of the ES10?

How can I experimentally prove that the scart component DOES indeed do the Frame-Sync / TBC-ish work and the AV4 out does not?

In other words what should I look for in the acquired video to irrefutably prove that a video comes from a FrameSynchronized-Tbc(-ish) source and the other doesn't?

Thank you!
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  #12  
03-04-2020, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzio View Post
How can I experimentally prove
You need a known-bad wiggly tape. Corrections should be obvious.

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  #13  
03-04-2020, 05:39 AM
josem84 josem84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzio View Post
What about the part about the line inputs and outputs of the ES10?

How can I experimentally prove that the scart component DOES indeed do the Frame-Sync / TBC-ish work and the AV4 out does not?

In other words what should I look for in the acquired video to irrefutably prove that a video comes from a FrameSynchronized-Tbc(-ish) source and the other doesn't?

Thank you!
There's nothing wrong with the rest of the outputs. I've been transferring tapes through the AV4 input/output on the recorder without problems. It's the brightness issue I was asking for, because I haven't noticed anything strange in that regard. To test the frame sync capabilities of your ES10, get a tape with no vertical sync recorded between scenes and see if you have any problems with the final output. The ES10 will generate a new vertical sync signal, providing a stable signal with no dropped frames. Yes, it can choked with some tapes, but those cases are rare. The ES10 will work just fine for the vast majority of your tapes (95%).

And of course, if you have any tape with tearing problems, the ES10 will do wonders for you. That's it's main strength.

Last edited by josem84; 03-04-2020 at 05:54 AM.
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  #14  
03-04-2020, 05:51 AM
josem84 josem84 is offline
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That's not what I was asking for, but thanks anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Which parts of his statement?

Only the 1st line TBC in a chain will work. So if the JVC is on, the ES10/15 will have no effect. (Noting that the ES10 isn't necessarily a true line, but about as close as you can get, due to anti-copy/Macrovision carving). In order for the ES10/15 to correct the signal, the JVC/Panasonic VCR line TBC must be off.

And for those wondering "why get a S-VHS VCR then?". Well, at that point, other aspects of the VCR come into play. It's the transport, head quality, other deck values. The reason for those recommended decks is not just because of TBC.

And remember that the ES10/15 is ideal for "as needed". Meaning VCR TBC will probably be on more than not, ES10/15 not in the workflow chain for all tapes.

Though with the understand that for some folks it may serve as a "poor man's TBC", and a decent 99% functionality when paired with the DataVideo DVK/5000 units. And understanding that the ES10/15 alone will rarely suffice as a pure TBC replacement, as it is just a crippled-but-strong line TBC, with mere weak frame sync (not frame sync TBC) as you find with most all DVD recorders.

The ES20/25 is so weak that it's useless. Just another unremarkable low-end DVD recorder.
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  #15  
03-04-2020, 05:54 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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There was a big test with capture cards & dvd recorders on german video forum a few years ago. All panasonic recorders have had the same error on the analog outputs except scart connector 1.
I have to look it I find the samples.
If you know how the error lokks like I'm sure you'll see it. You'll be on the safe side if you use the scart connector 1 as output via s-video.
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  #16  
03-04-2020, 11:19 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Here are the samples as gif.

Panasonic DMR Scart1.gif
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Sample & declaration from the users skiller & Gubel from german video forum. Translation made with google translator.

Brightness pumping should only occur when changing from light to dark image content (and vice versa), but not always there.

The GIF linked by Skiller shows exactly what 'pumping' what I mean!
This occurs with sudden, large changes in brightness in the picture.
It is hardly recognizable in the normal case, but the white level fluctuates noticeably depending on the image content. With quick light-dark changes (e.g. concert recordings with light effects) you can see that very well, even if it is not immediately noticeable.


Scart adapter + S-video cable: That is flawless!

Audio error Panasonic ES-10:

The phase shift takes place in the input A / D converter of the ES10. No matter which input (Scart, Cinch-AV, ...). So when recording DVD and consequently when looping through ...
Nobody actually hears that, it also occurs with a few hi-fi devices
Panasonic DMR error other remaining analog outputs.gif

this phase shift was corrected by the next models (ES15......)

but more important, if you have video content where the white luma level is above 255 the panasonic modell clip these white part and I have many tapes which was recorded with an old Sanyo & Siemens vcr where these happened. With other dvd-recorders (Sony, Pioneer, JVC) you could the clipped white part make visible. If you have such video content and will use a pansonic dvd recorder you'll need an external proc amp in your capture chain before you use the panasonic dmrs and I have used the ES-10,ES-15, Eh65 & EH495.


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  #17  
03-04-2020, 03:26 PM
josem84 josem84 is offline
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Thanks for the info. Will do some tests when I have time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Here are the samples as gif.

Attachment 11408 Attachment 11409

Sample & declaration from the users skiller & Gubel from german video forum. Translation made with google translator.

Brightness pumping should only occur when changing from light to dark image content (and vice versa), but not always there.

The GIF linked by Skiller shows exactly what 'pumping' what I mean!
This occurs with sudden, large changes in brightness in the picture.
It is hardly recognizable in the normal case, but the white level fluctuates noticeably depending on the image content. With quick light-dark changes (e.g. concert recordings with light effects) you can see that very well, even if it is not immediately noticeable.


Scart adapter + S-video cable: That is flawless!

Audio error Panasonic ES-10:

The phase shift takes place in the input A / D converter of the ES10. No matter which input (Scart, Cinch-AV, ...). So when recording DVD and consequently when looping through ...
Nobody actually hears that, it also occurs with a few hi-fi devices
Attachment 11410

this phase shift was corrected by the next models (ES15......)

but more important, if you have video content where the white luma level is above 255 the panasonic modell clip these white part and I have many tapes which was recorded with an old Sanyo & Siemens vcr where these happened. With other dvd-recorders (Sony, Pioneer, JVC) you could the clipped white part make visible. If you have such video content and will use a pansonic dvd recorder you'll need an external proc amp in your capture chain before you use the panasonic dmrs and I have used the ES-10,ES-15, Eh65 & EH495.
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  #18  
03-05-2020, 04:04 AM
benzio benzio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Here are the samples as gif.
but more important, if you have video content where the white luma level is above 255 the panasonic modell clip these white part and I have many tapes which was recorded with an old Sanyo & Siemens vcr where these happened. With other dvd-recorders (Sony, Pioneer, JVC) you could the clipped white part make visible. If you have such video content and will use a pansonic dvd recorder you'll need an external proc amp in your capture chain before you use the panasonic dmrs and I have used the ES-10,ES-15, Eh65 & EH495.
Can this cut of the luma happen also with more professional S-Vhs vcrs like the suggested ones in the Lord Smurf's Vcr buying guide? I wouldn't like to afford a proc amp, very expensive, but it would be very sad for me to lose forever some details in the video!



Another question about the audio.

I usually connect directly the audio R/L from the VCR to the Capture card, instead of passing it from the ES10 like the video. I was of the opinion that less "things" the audio signal is passing by, less will be the quality loss.
Is this opinion right?

Does the ES10 use ALSO the audio signal to syncronize the frames?

Thanks!
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