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  #1  
03-11-2020, 05:50 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Hi,

Long story short, its been years since I've seen a VHS recording. I want to make sure my setup is working correctly, but I've no idea if it is or isn't as I don't have anything to compare it to.

To generate a test VHS, I burned a DVD with the attached test clip (SD_PAL_25_576i) and recorded it to a VHS with:
DVD player -> S-video -> Panasonic NV-HS830.

To test my capture setup, I then played back the video on the VHS and used my capture setup to record it which is (all S-video):
Pannsonic NV-HS830 -> Panasonic DVR-ES10 -> Phillips capture card.

This is recorded in Huffyuv with Virtual Dub.

This is then put through Hybrid with QTGMC de-interlacing and encoded to H.264

It's blatantly obvious there's something wrong with the right side audio (silent clip, the noise is evident), which I'll tackle shortly.

It's also clear that the destructive nature of the de-interlacing can be seen in the test pattern on interlace pattern 1, but I don't think this will be an issue for actual video. Unless there's a suggestion of how to keep this detail while converting to progressive?

Is there anything that sticks out here for anyone? I know it looks terrible, but I haven't the experience to know if this is just VHS limitations, or if I'm doing something wrong.

Thanks so much for any help. I'm really overwhelmed with this at the minute.


Attached Files
File Type: mkv FullWorkFlowTest.mkv (27.52 MB, 25 downloads)
File Type: mpg SD_PAL_25_576i.mpg (23.62 MB, 15 downloads)
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  #2  
03-12-2020, 11:29 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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The only thing that troubles me is the interference on the color bars. But there may not be a way to fix it on the recording/capture side.
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  #3  
03-13-2020, 02:56 PM
josem84 josem84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerie View Post
Hi,

Long story short, its been years since I've seen a VHS recording. I want to make sure my setup is working correctly, but I've no idea if it is or isn't as I don't have anything to compare it to.

To generate a test VHS, I burned a DVD with the attached test clip (SD_PAL_25_576i) and recorded it to a VHS with:
DVD player -> S-video -> Panasonic NV-HS830.

To test my capture setup, I then played back the video on the VHS and used my capture setup to record it which is (all S-video):
Pannsonic NV-HS830 -> Panasonic DVR-ES10 -> Phillips capture card.

This is recorded in Huffyuv with Virtual Dub.

This is then put through Hybrid with QTGMC de-interlacing and encoded to H.264

It's blatantly obvious there's something wrong with the right side audio (silent clip, the noise is evident), which I'll tackle shortly.

It's also clear that the destructive nature of the de-interlacing can be seen in the test pattern on interlace pattern 1, but I don't think this will be an issue for actual video. Unless there's a suggestion of how to keep this detail while converting to progressive?

Is there anything that sticks out here for anyone? I know it looks terrible, but I haven't the experience to know if this is just VHS limitations, or if I'm doing something wrong.

Thanks so much for any help. I'm really overwhelmed with this at the minute.

Don't use processed samples... upload a raw sample.
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  #4  
03-13-2020, 03:49 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
The only thing that troubles me is the interference on the color bars. But there may not be a way to fix it on the recording/capture side.
Some of them are from the RGB to S-Video converter (which is between the DVD player and the VHS recorder) and won't be an issue with prerecorded tapes; however the majority aren't. I'm not sure where they are coming from, and one of my reasons for showing this clip was to see if they are just VHS artifacts and to be expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josem84 View Post
Don't use processed samples... upload a raw sample.
I purposefully uploaded a full "workflow" example to try and catch everything that might be an issue (like the interlacing). I can't upload the raw capture here as it's over 99mb...
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  #5  
03-13-2020, 05:10 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerie View Post
I purposefully uploaded a full "workflow" example to try and catch everything that might be an issue (like the interlacing). I can't upload the raw capture here as it's over 99mb...
Thank you.

Please do not upload huge video samples, as it will clog the server SSD/HDD and bog down the nightly backups.

Small clips under 99mb, preferably even smaller when possible.

Dropbox, MS One Drive, or Google Drive for something huge. And the Premium Members can also request some FTP space, which is on a different server --- but again, don't get carried away with the samples.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
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  #6  
03-13-2020, 08:46 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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There is some seemingly periodic high-frequency noise (vertical lines) in areas with strong color on your capture. I have a similar issue on my Panasonic DMR-EH57, not sure what causes it. Don't know if it's the DVR or something else in your case, but the noise is way to high frequency to be something on the tape. Not talking about the faint checkerboarding, that's normal, I think it's due to the fact that the edges chroma and luma bands on VHS tapes overlap slightly.
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  #7  
03-14-2020, 09:04 AM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
There is some seemingly periodic high-frequency noise (vertical lines) in areas with strong color on your capture. I have a similar issue on my Panasonic DMR-EH57, not sure what causes it. Don't know if it's the DVR or something else in your case, but the noise is way to high frequency to be something on the tape. Not talking about the faint checkerboarding, that's normal, I think it's due to the fact that the edges chroma and luma bands on VHS tapes overlap slightly.

Could you maybe take a snip to show me what you mean?

I'm going to try this with a different DVD player to see if I can get rid of some of the added noise from the recording side of this, as that's not what I'm interested in showing.

In the mean time, here's the uncompressed capture file (over 200mb):

https://send.firefox.com/download/de...4zRVzIvFF2Zw7A

The password is digitalfaq
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  #8  
03-14-2020, 10:41 AM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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OK, I've removed the S-video converter from the setup and redone this test. I am 80% sure the 90 scrolling lines are coming from the capture card/PC itself and I can't remove them. Has anyone suggestions for cleaning these up with Hybrid without completely destroying the image?

I've attached the outputted Hybrid file (Through Hybrid.avi) and if someone wants to see the raw capture file, it's available here:
https://send.firefox.com/download/3e...Lh-XZANRodxNdg

Password: digitalfaq
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  #9  
03-14-2020, 11:50 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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I'm talking specifically about this diagonal pattern which must be caused by something else than the tape itself:
high freq noise.png

Do you get these without ES10 in-between the capture card and VCR, when bypassing the VCR entirely?

I don't know whether hybrid includes it, but in avisynth, something like FFTQuiver can be used to remove it, specifically the f1quiver function. (At least for VHS as the VHS format doesn't have that fine detail, for SVHS, Hi8 etc it will be harder to filter it out without also removing detail.) Not sure what the exact parameters would be, I've had some crashing issues with the newer versions of the plugin.


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  #10  
03-14-2020, 04:28 PM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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There is a good script to remove "herringbone pattern" here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=173030
This is caused by poor decoding (Y/C separation) more infos here:
https://bavc.github.io/avaa/artifact..._decoding.html
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  #11  
03-15-2020, 12:39 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Thanks for everyone's feedback.

I've spent my Sunday playing with my setup to try and figure this out. It's 100% the VCR. I've no way of telling if it's happening during playback or recording.

Hodgey, I've recorded using the VHS only as passthrough and it's fine. As soon as I record and play back, the herringbone pattern is there. (Thanks for identifying the issue themaster1!)

Anyone any ideas on how to tackle this? I think I'm going to have to get another VCR :/
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  #12  
03-17-2020, 11:16 AM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Any VHS boffins any advice on this? Do I dump the VCR?
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  #13  
03-18-2020, 02:30 AM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
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Had you read the second link you'd have seen it's about getting a better s-video cable. Though, it can happen it's really embedded in the tape footage already. Best way to find out is to play a commercial tape (free of artifacts)
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  #14  
03-22-2020, 02:48 PM
bakerie bakerie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themaster1 View Post
Had you read the second link you'd have seen it's about getting a better s-video cable.
I did indeed read the link in full, and as I've said, I've ruled out the cables being an issue as using the VCR as pass through gave a flawless image. It's either the playback or recording that's screwing it up and I don't know how to figure out which one it is.

I suppose I could try and get a tape from somewhere with test patterns on it...

EDIT: Just bought an unopened season of Friends on VHS from eBay. I've another thread on an audio issue, so doing this will tell me if the issues with the audio are only recording related. I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to spot the "herring bone" pattern on a TV show like friends however...

Saying that, with the constant noise from a TV show, the audio issue might be hard to spot as well...

Last edited by bakerie; 03-22-2020 at 03:06 PM.
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