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  #21  
02-14-2022, 01:55 PM
billuke billuke is offline
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If you insist,
VCR -SVHS OUT
LEITCH DPS - SVHS IN
LEITCH SDI OUT
KONA SDI IN

Where is there more than 1 conversion?
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  #22  
02-14-2022, 02:08 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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That was my intended suggestion, however you clearly stated you are using a breakout cable for the Kona which I had assumed it's analog and that's how I based my suggestion, You are free to use your hardware however you want, I was just suggesting a better way or at least thinking that way.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #23  
02-14-2022, 03:01 PM
billuke billuke is offline
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Breakout Box (read what I said)which is a direct connection to the card .


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  #24  
02-14-2022, 09:23 PM
billuke billuke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmuy97 View Post
@billuke:

What software do you prefer for capturing 8-bit uncompressed? That's what I plan to do with a Kona card as well. I'm presently getting everything set up and now I'm at the software stage. Thanks in advance.
I use the AJA control room software that comes with the card drivers.Does everything I need to capture vhs.
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  #25  
02-14-2022, 09:26 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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That's what w'd like to hear, And I like that Tascam DAT machine there.
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  #26  
02-15-2022, 08:39 PM
billuke billuke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
That's what w'd like to hear, And I like that Tascam DAT machine there.
It actually is just filling space on the rack.I never use it much except when I want to hear old practice tapes of my drumming.
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  #27  
02-16-2022, 08:11 AM
billuke billuke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billuke View Post
I use the AJA control room software that comes with the card drivers.Does everything I need to capture vhs.
Gotta warn you, You need a fairly beefy computer with no bottlenecks to capture uncompressed video.
You can try Avid DNxHD if you run into issues capturing.
I've captured with that codec on very large projects and as long as you keep it within say 2 generations, you can get excellent results in the final output.
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  #28  
02-20-2022, 10:01 PM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billuke View Post
Gotta warn you, You need a fairly beefy computer with no bottlenecks to capture uncompressed video.
You can try Avid DNxHD if you run into issues capturing.
I've captured with that codec on very large projects and as long as you keep it within say 2 generations, you can get excellent results in the final output.
As of yesterday I finally had the minimum amount of hardware, so I took my first test capture last night. HS-HD2000U s-video output >> Extron s-video to BNC Y/C split cable >> Kona LHe breakout cable BNC Y/C inputs >> capturing 8-bit 4:2:2 uncompressed in Premiere Pro CS6. I think CS6 is the last version that supported my LHe. About 1GB per minute and I'm pleasantly surprised by how it came out. I tested on a THX Return of the Jedi VHS that seems to be in good condition. x265 compressed it to about 1.4% of the original uncompressed size with almost no quality change. Excited to keep going and start trying different settings and eventually be ready to do the home videos properly. Thanks for your tips and insight on successfully using the Kona cards.


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  #29  
02-21-2022, 02:45 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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I would like to see some feedback from the pre 4K cards, the HD and SD ones, as those are very cheap used.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #30  
03-13-2022, 09:22 PM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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@billuke: Do I have this correct?

(analog) VCR - S-VIDEO OUT
(analog) LEITCH DPS - S-VIDEO IN
<<< Leitch unit does frame TBC >>>
<<< analog-to-digital conversion >>>
(digital) LEITCH DPS - SDI OUT
(digital) KONA BREAKOUT BOX - SDI IN
(digital) KONA BREAKOUT BOX - MUTLI I/O CABLE OUT
(digital) KONA CAPTURE CARD - MULTI I/O CABLE IN

AND the last 3 steps (2 breakout box and 1 capture card) can be replaced with:

(digital) KONA CAPTURE CARD - SDI IN (if not using a breakout box)?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Also, re: the breakout box and SDI connections:

I didn't even look into what the SDI connections are until just seeing some workflows using them. All I know right now is that SDI is the acronym for "serial digital interface."

My immediate question while I read further is if there's any difference between feeding the analog A/V signal into the capture card (specifically one of these Kona cards) direct from the VHS/TBC/etc, versus that analog A/V signal going through an analog-to-digital conversion for an SDI output to be fed into the capture card via SDI.

I understand that there will be a literal difference as one signal is analog and one is digital. I'm wondering about the actual data in the signal -- Is the ADC for SDI output a lossless conversion in the case of our VHS s-video signal data? E.g. in the workflow shown above, if the frame TBC unit had the ability to output the corrected signal through either s-video or SDI, is it part of the SDI standard (or otherwise a fact) that the digital signal would contain exactly the same data as the analog signal it converted?

Apologies if I am out in left field or completely missing something here.
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  #31  
03-13-2022, 09:57 PM
billuke billuke is offline
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mrmuy97
Which Kona capture card do you have?
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  #32  
03-13-2022, 10:05 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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The difference between the two workflows is that if using SDI route the capture device is the Leitch DPS and the router will be the Kona, If using analog breakout cable the Leitch DPS will act as a pitza box size conventional TBC and the Kona will be the capture device here.

The right way of doing it is the SDI route because the Leitch is intended to be used as a capture device (or a converter in the manufacturer language) to convert analog video to digital and stablise it before outputing it via SDI, the analog output of it is for monitoring purposes not for feeding another converter. The Kona card can be used as an analog capture device on its own but I'm not sure how it handles consumer analog tape formats, so it is better to use it only as a SDI interface.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #33  
03-13-2022, 11:56 PM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billuke View Post
Which Kona capture card do you have?
Just LHe at the moment. Looking into a few newer options. Think I saw you say you've got 3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
The difference between the two workflows is that if using SDI route the capture device is the Leitch DPS and the router will be the Kona, if using analog breakout cable the Leitch DPS will act as a pizza box size conventional TBC and the Kona will be the capture device here.

The right way of doing it is the SDI route because the Leitch is intended to be used as a capture device (or a converter in the manufacturer language) to convert analog video to digital and stablise it before outputing it via SDI, the analog output of it is for monitoring purposes not for feeding another converter.
Interesting. Will have to do the reading on SDI and try to find detailed info on the DPS. I'd like to run the capture both ways and see if there's any discernible difference. Or perhaps see info in the specs suggesting that the analog output is degraded in some way that the SDI output isn't. But why would it be designed that way? Seems like for a high-end unit it would make the most sense to apply the TBC to the signal and output with no degradation via analog and just convert to digital for SDI output which would be a separate function/chip on the board. I imagine you're correct that the analog output was designed for external monitoring. But if it's the same quality signal being passed after the TBC functionality, just that one signal stays analog and one gets converted to SDI, I'd think in theory it would capture just as well -- assuming use of an analog capture card that does analog-to-digital conversion at least as well as the DPS unit. Or maybe a part of the TBC functionality is performing an ADC itself? And so then it would be best to just take the digital output that it gives since it would be converting back to analog for those outputs. Just looking to clarify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
The Kona card can be used as an analog capture device on its own but I'm not sure how it handles consumer analog tape formats, so it is better to use it only as a SDI interface.
I've only run a single test for about 60 secs on a retail VHS tape, so once I've been able to test more tapes I'll have more insight on this.
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  #34  
03-14-2022, 08:17 AM
billuke billuke is offline
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Ok,this is a simple process so don't over think it.
SDI carries 16 channels of pulse-code modulation or PCM audio and uncompressed video that is digital in nature. It transmits on a coaxial cable at 75 Ohms connected with BNC.

As far as your workflow:
VCR-SVHS OUT TO DPS SVHS IN
DPS OUT TO THE KONA BREAKOUT BOX OR CABLE, OUT DIRECTLY TO THE KONA CARD.

Simple, no more no less ,however if I read your post correctly, you said you captured in Premier Pro which I would not do.
Stick with AJA CONTROL ROOM,or MACHINA to capture. Using third party software for capture is going thru more hoops than needed.You want the cleanest most direct capture path that you can get.
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  #35  
03-14-2022, 09:44 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmuy97 View Post
Interesting. Will have to do the reading on SDI and try to find detailed info on the DPS. I'd like to run the capture both ways and see if there's any discernible difference. Or perhaps see info in the specs suggesting that the analog output is degraded in some way that the SDI output isn't.
It won't be degraded and you won't see any video quality difference, It's about signal timing and other non visual issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmuy97 View Post
But why would it be designed that way?
The same way a screw driver was designed to unscrew screws not for poking holes. But why would it be designed otherwise, Any TBC would convert to digital first so why convert back to analog when its purpose is to convert to digital.

Quote:
Seems like for a high-end unit it would make the most sense to apply the TBC to the signal and output with no degradation via analog and just convert to digital for SDI output which would be a separate function/chip on the board.
No it doesn't make any sense at all, The converter converts to digital, applies timing, embed audio and output to SDI.

Last edited by latreche34; 03-14-2022 at 10:11 AM.
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  #36  
03-14-2022, 01:06 PM
billuke billuke is offline
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DPS-575 Operations Manual. Alot of it does not apply to vhs,but there are some crucial settings to get good captures.

If you have noise reduction unlocked on yours,good for you. It's pretty effective if used properly.


Attached Files
File Type: pdf DPS-575 Operations Manual.pdf (2.84 MB, 8 downloads)
File Type: pdf LEITCH DPS BROCHURE 2.pdf (713.6 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: pdf LEITCH DPS 575 BROCHURE.pdf (548.6 KB, 7 downloads)
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  #37  
03-14-2022, 04:52 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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The reason why consumer TBC's don't have a digital output is because at the era when they were made having a digital output port on the device meant that you would have to have either a DV encoder or a MPEG-2 encoder chips, both required extra manufacturing costs, both required licensing, both are lossy, there was no way of having a lossless output since computers back then are barely doing photoshop and there was no lossless consumer format to record to, So they put the task of digital encoding in the hands of capture cards and devices.

On the pro arena they had something called D1, to fulfill the need for having a lossless digital video and audio and be able to store it as such on a 3/4" digital tape the size of an encyclopedia book (around 1986), A standard was born (rec.601) and every capture card on the market played by it consumer or not.

A decade or so later when everything was switching to digital, studios needed something to keep their analog tape players working with digital transmission or convert the tapes to a digital format and play them back in the digital players for the ones who switched the players to digital, so the need for analog to digital converters and a digital port arose and manufacturers like Aja, ED, BM … did just that following the D1 standard and that's when the SDI port was born (around 1989), Though they kept the same BNC connector design to save on cables and re-cabling entire studios.

SDI carries both lossless video and lossless audio, Analog to digital converters didn't require an encoder chip or computer like consumer capture devices, After the ADC and timing a serializer is used to send both video and audio on the same cable D1 standard, AVI 4:2:2 8bit (D1) and later 10/12 bit used, 720x486 (NTSC), 720x576 (PAL/SECAM), 24bit/48KHz audio.

The extra 6 lines on top of the frame for NTSC is added to allow for preserving signaling data such as caption, aspect ratio flag ..., Don't know why it wasn't added for PAL/SECAM maybe because it has enough scan lines already compared to NTSC.

https://www.youtube.com/@Capturing-Memories/videos
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  #38  
03-21-2022, 04:20 PM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
The right way of doing it is the SDI route because the Leitch is intended to be used as a capture device (or a converter in the manufacturer language) to convert analog video to digital and stablise it before outputing it via SDI, the analog output of it is for monitoring purposes not for feeding another converter. The Kona card can be used as an analog capture device on its own but I'm not sure how it handles consumer analog tape formats, so it is better to use it only as a SDI interface.
Ok, after more reading I understand what you're saying now. I was misunderstanding this step in the signal pathway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Any TBC would convert to digital first so why convert back to analog when its purpose is to convert to digital . . . . The converter converts to digital, applies timing, embed audio and output to SDI.
Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billuke View Post
As far as your workflow:
VCR-SVHS OUT TO DPS SVHS IN
DPS OUT TO THE KONA BREAKOUT BOX OR CABLE, OUT DIRECTLY TO THE KONA CARD.
I was missing the part where the TBC is already doing a ADC, so if it passes that digital signal straight to SDI, it should be the best quality of the available options.

Thanks again for those explanations.

recommended vcr+line tbc ---(y/c)--> lordsmurf frame tbc ---(sdi+y/c)--> capture in windows 7
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  #39  
03-21-2022, 04:32 PM
mrmuy97 mrmuy97 is offline
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My original questions were based on the thought that perhaps a newer/better/etc analog capture card in the PC could do a higher-quality ADC of the signal than the on-board hardware/software ADC in the TBC units -- but I was completely missing the fact that the actual TBC process is doing an ADC in the first place. Now, if I'm understanding correctly, I would agree that the highest-quality signal must be the output from the ADC of the TBC hardware/software, and to have that directly output losslessly over SDI as you've both stated.

recommended vcr+line tbc ---(y/c)--> lordsmurf frame tbc ---(sdi+y/c)--> capture in windows 7
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