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  #1  
03-31-2020, 04:54 PM
history1 history1 is offline
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Hello everyone. I have this issue that when certain tapes start playing at the beginning (and one tape so far in the middle), an over-exposure/blooming issue occurs at the first video. The issue goes away if I rewind and play again. The issue also goes away if I turn the internal TBC off on my AG-1980. I recently had this unit serviced at TGrant. I had certain things repaired on this unit. As far as the blooming issue goes, he didn't notice anything (on a test tape I sent him) and told me that it could be my capture card and that AGC could be turned on. I got the unit back and the test tape, and I tested with no issues. I tested other tapes and found the issue, but I don't know where the AGC controls are located. I have an AIW 9800 Pro. One phenomenon that is happening is that this DOESN'T occur every time. I just discovered this. If it doesn't happen every time, could it still be my capture card, or the unit itself? I just had this serviced, and thoroughly serviced at that. Do I really have to send it back?, but if that's not that issue, where can I find the AGC controls? How can this be fixed? An example is attached, thank you very much.

-- merged --

]I did some further testing and found that something is definitely up with my capture card. I need to figure out where the AGC controls are located to get things under control, but it's not just the capture card that is overblowing the videos. I can also see it when the unit is connected directly to my TV, but to a much lesser scale. Fixing it by rewinding and turning off the TBC also applies there too. The problem lies within the unit itself too I think.


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File Type: avi bloom.avi (85.01 MB, 12 downloads)
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  #2  
04-01-2020, 02:51 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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I think you'll need an external tbc where you can reduce the luminance.
Maybe as a cheaper solution one of the late Pioneer/Sony dvd recorder could help which have agc control. Another thing you can try a is a different capture card.
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04-03-2020, 05:57 PM
history1 history1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
I think you'll need an external tbc where you can reduce the luminance.
Maybe as a cheaper solution one of the late Pioneer/Sony dvd recorder could help which have agc control. Another thing you can try a is a different capture card.
An external TBC doesn't fix it. A DVD recorder in the mix isn't the solution either. I did some more testing and found that the tape plays perfectly on my CRT TV and plays almost perfectly on another LCD TV in my house (1 second of blooming). I talked to Tom at TGrant Photo and told him these findings and he suggests me get a new capture card since the blooming is extreme on that. So I suppose that's what I should do. What capture card should I get? I've read the 7000 line of AIW cards are very good, since many cards of the 9000 series have interference issues, but I've also read that the 9000 series could be better because of the Theatre 200 chipset. What should I invest in?

Also I still would like to know if there's a way to adjust the AGC controls on my AIW 9800 Pro.
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  #4  
04-03-2020, 06:36 PM
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All capture cards have AGC. It's almost never adjustable, as that would defeat the purpose. If it is adjustable, it's just for the purpose of calibration.

Some cards just have bad AGC, overly aggressive.

But sometimes good cards can equally choke on a bad signal.

Theatre 200 vs. Theatre Rage/100 does not matter for non-MPEG capturing. The main difference is the hybrid offload, which doesn't matter for lossless capturing.

What card do you have now?

It can also be a workflow conflict. AG-1980 is not immune to this phenomena. Some VCRs, TBCs, capture cards, and videotapes can sometimes dislike one another. Sometimes it's even that exact device, not even the model/brand of device. It can be hard to troubleshoot, especially without having alternate capture hardware to run a process of elimination.

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04-03-2020, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
What card do you have now?
I have an AIW 9800 Pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It can also be a workflow conflict.
My workflow is Panasonic AG-1980 > Green AVT-8710 (one you sold me) > AIW 9800 Pro > Windows XP Home SP2. Adding a Panasonic ES10 to the workflow (between the AG-1980 and AVT-8710) does actually eliminate the bloom, but I know that's not how the issue is supposed to be fixed.

Tom also said to try to upgrade the capture card drivers. Do you think upgrading the drivers would help? I have Catalyst 6.11.
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04-04-2020, 07:59 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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So what are the actual workflows you've tested and the results?

Note: I'm using +/- to stand for On/Off status of internal Line TBC.

Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → AIW 9800 Pro = the bad constant blooming clip attached to post 1?

What about Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → AIW 9800 Pro direct?

So far I see:
  1. Panasonic AG-1980 (-TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → AIW 9800 Pro = good?
  2. Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC?) → CRT = good
  3. Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC?) → LCD TV = 1 second bloom
  4. Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC?) → Panasonic DMR-ES10 → Green AVT-8710 → AIW 9800 Pro = no bloom

Quote:
Originally Posted by history1 View Post
I have this issue that when certain tapes start playing at the beginning (and one tape so far in the middle), an over-exposure/blooming issue occurs at the first video. The issue goes away if I rewind and play again. The issue also goes away if I turn the internal TBC off on my AG-1980.
Actually, no! The only non-bloomed video in your sample is at the very end of the rewind. After the rewind, it's lessened compared to the extreme at the start, but it's still bad.

Start
bloom.avi 328.jpg

End
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End of rewind
bloom.avi 712.jpg



Last edited by msgohan; 04-04-2020 at 08:15 AM.
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  #7  
04-04-2020, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → AIW 9800 Pro = the bad constant blooming clip attached to post 1?
Yes, that's the exact workflow for that clip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
What about Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → AIW 9800 Pro direct?
Unfortunately this tape got a little damaged after I put it in a dirty VCR while testing yesterday. The blooming no longer seems to happen anymore because of it, but testing a different tape, yes the blooming still happens on that when it's connected directly, and just as bad as the clip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
So far I see:
  1. Panasonic AG-1980 (-TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → AIW 9800 Pro = good?
  2. Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC?) → CRT = good
  3. Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC?) → LCD TV = 1 second bloom
  4. Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC?) → Panasonic DMR-ES10 → Green AVT-8710 → AIW 9800 Pro = no bloom
All these are correct. For #3, I have another LCD TV and on that one the blooming occurs longer than 1 second. It goes on forever, I think, unless I switch TBC off or rewind and fast forward.

I've also tried: Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → CRT = good

With TBC off, everything is good. An interesting thing I discovered today is that if I add my AVT-8710 to my setup between my AG-1980 (+TBC) and either one of my LCD TVs, the picture is just as bad as when connected to my capture card.

Remember the blooming is at its worst when connected to my capture card. The blooming is much better but not perfect when connected to my LCD TVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Actually, no! The only non-bloomed video in your sample is at the very end of the rewind. After the rewind, it's lessened compared to the extreme at the start, but it's still bad.
Yes, that's true. Another thing i discovered is that my green AVT-8710 makes things a tad bit bright no matter how things are connected. When it's not in the setup, details show up a little more in over-exposed areas. Is there something wrong with my AVT-8710 as well? Oh I sure hope not, those things are expensive.
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04-04-2020, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history1 View Post
Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → CRT = good

With TBC off, everything is good. An interesting thing I discovered today is that if I add my AVT-8710 to my setup between my AG-1980 (+TBC) and either one of my LCD TVs, the picture is just as bad as when connected to my capture card.
Bizarre. I would expect Panasonic AG-1980 (+TBC) → Green AVT-8710 → CRT to bloom if every other thing you put at the end of that chain does.

Quote:
Yes, that's true. Another thing i discovered is that my green AVT-8710 makes things a tad bit bright no matter how things are connected. When it's not in the setup, details show up a little more in over-exposed areas. Is there something wrong with my AVT-8710 as well?
My own experience: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...rovision-tapes

I can't recall whether I've tested with my overly-bright camcorder tapes though. Something to do this evening, I suppose.
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04-04-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
These tapes I'm testing are not Macrovision tapes. These are ordinary blank tapes by Sony and LDK (not TDK). Not every one of my tapes actually blooms, and occasionally these bloom tapes don't bloom at all. I also have TDK, Maxell, and JVC branded blanks.
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04-04-2020, 02:05 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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To watch a video and to capture a video are two different things.

CRT/TV monitors are more tolerant against video errors as capture cards.

For me it looks like the luminance of your video is too high (beyond 255). You should try an external proc amp to reduce the luminance (more than 3db). The atv should have some proc amp features but what I have read here on the board these are weaker as from an external proc amp.
I know 2 captures cards where you can adjust the luminance when it is out of range. The canopus nx & some old tv cards with Brooktree 848/878 chipset.

Sony RDR-AT200 DVD recorder as TBC, capture via HDMI?

Watch my answer #7. I think it's similar to your problem.

Last edited by Bogilein; 04-04-2020 at 02:18 PM.
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04-08-2020, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
For me it looks like the luminance of your video is too high (beyond 255). You should try an external proc amp to reduce the luminance (more than 3db). The atv should have some proc amp features but what I have read here on the board these are weaker as from an external proc amp.
I know 2 captures cards where you can adjust the luminance when it is out of range. The canopus nx & some old tv cards with Brooktree 848/878 chipset.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...rdr-at200.html

Watch my answer #7. I think it's similar to your problem.
The luminance of my clip was set within proper specifications (below 255) before I started recording. I set the specifications in VirtualDub by going off normal video playback. The capture card has some sort of problem that over exposes the video when certain videos play back until I turn TBC off on the VCR or Rewind/FF it. An external proc amp won't be able to fix this. I need a new capture card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
I suppose I'd need an external proc amp to correct my issue? Is this a normal kind of thing people get to correct this kind of problem, even with blank tapes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
I can't recall whether I've tested with my overly-bright camcorder tapes though. Something to do this evening, I suppose.
Have you been able to get around to doing this? What was your experience?
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  #12  
04-15-2020, 08:46 PM
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The AG-1980 has a field TBC, not line TBC. It can cause luminance changes, but it's not overly common to see it. That generally only happens with bad tapes. And "bad tapes" may appear to be good tapes (not physical damage, no tracking errors, 1st gen clean/sharp image), but have illegal signal values. I came across a tape that played overly dark just yesterday, and had another with weird values last week.

AVT-8710 can be brighter that DataVideo. But as is the case with Panasonic-vs-JVC sharpness (where the JVC is "softer" because it's more true to the source), sometimes DataVideo is simply darker. Again, it really depends on the tape itself. I've seen this go both ways.

Similarly, in the past week, I came across as a weird batch (less than 10 tapes, all from the same camcorder) of VHS-C tapes that played in an AG-1980 with blurry motions. I did turn the DETAIL/NORM/EDIT slider to EDIT, and the ghosting went away. But chroma noise became massive. However, I can deal with chroma noise (CCD filter in VirtualDub), and not the blurring. The deck isn't at fault -- the tapes are.

You clearly have workflow interaction issues. That VCR can be screwy (again, JVC always better as 1st VCR to try, with exception of VHS-C and EP, then JVC is best for 2nd try). The TBC is 99% probably fine, not the issue. The capture card is easy to bypass with a known-good USB card, so isolate that 9800 for process of elimination testing.

@msgohan, BTW, the blown highlights on AVT-8710 is likely chipset based. I've seen green units with and without this, and it will change from tape to tape (likely MV version to MV version). But the tapes are still at fault, having been injected with artificial errors. Know that some of the other "green-era" Cypress units don't behave this way (the "clones"). DataVideo is not immune, and can equally be too dark, crushing the darks, often on those same tapes. Very often, another copy of the tape (same retail title) will not have the issues.

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  #13  
04-16-2020, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
AVT-8710 can be brighter that DataVideo. But as is the case with Panasonic-vs-JVC sharpness (where the JVC is "softer" because it's more true to the source), sometimes DataVideo is simply darker. Again, it really depends on the tape itself. I've seen this go both ways.
Can the AVT-8710 add enough brightness to a video to hide detail in over-exposed areas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
That VCR can be screwy (again, JVC always better as 1st VCR to try, with exception of VHS-C and EP, then JVC is best for 2nd try).
Most of my tapes are in EP mode, as well as the tape the clip above came from. Would these tapes work best in the Panny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The capture card is easy to bypass with a known-good USB card, so isolate that 9800 for process of elimination testing.
Would an All In Wonder card do instead of a USB? From this site I have gotten the impression that AIW is most recommended. I have my eyes on an AIW 7200 or 7500.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
@msgohan, BTW, the blown highlights on AVT-8710 is likely chipset based. I've seen green units with and without this, and it will change from tape to tape (likely MV version to MV version). But the tapes are still at fault, having been injected with artificial errors. Know that some of the other "green-era" Cypress units don't behave this way (the "clones"). DataVideo is not immune, and can equally be too dark, crushing the darks, often on those same tapes. Very often, another copy of the tape (same retail title) will not have the issues.
Is this another explanation for the AVT-8710 adding brightness to videos? Would I have to get another TBC that may not have the issue? Is there a way I can avoid doing so?

Last edited by history1; 04-16-2020 at 07:07 PM.
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