Quantcast VirtualDub and ATI AIW x600 Pro not working? - digitalFAQ Forum
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04-18-2020, 06:34 PM
rom828q rom828q is offline
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I'm trying to run VirtualDub 1.9.11 on Windows XP SP2 using an ATI AIW X600Pro PCIE capture card. When I go to choose the Device which appears as "Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32) (VFW)" I get the following error: "VirtualDub cannot connect to the desired capture driver".

Any help/tips? I assume I don't have something installed I need.

-- merged --

Looking at the relevant drivers under System. Some installed have the yellow exclamation point by it. So what does that mean?

Update: I re-installed everything, and using PC Check function with ATI MMC, the only driver that is not installed it says is the WDM (capture) drivers. It tells where to find the capture driver, but of course that portion of the website no longer exists. Not sure if/where I can find the proper capture driver. I've looked, but have been unable to locate it.

(I'm using the 180-V01098-100 ISO file from this post: Black screen on AIW X600 Pro composite/svideo inputs?)

-- merged --

So, after further searching/reading, I've come to the following conclusion: it's likely a waste of time to try and get this specific card to work. I realize the old ATI site where you could download the proper drivers is gone. Unless, I've missed it on this site, I'm probably not going to locate a good capture driver that works with this card. It seems to me the general consensus is X600 Pro card, or any PCIe card is likely to either be very finicky or not work.

So, if I were to give up on this card. What is my next best option for a capture card? I'm using a Dell Dimension 9200, so there are only PCIe or PCI slots. So my other options would be a PCI card or a USB device. Maybe I should try the ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB tuner?
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  #2  
04-19-2020, 01:27 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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The X600 Pro is probably one of the more stable PCI express cards.

That is the correct iso file

cdrom label: 180-V01098-100

AGP is preferred over PCIe, but if that is what you have its worth trying to get it to work.

The "yellow safety cones w/exclamation points" indicate the device drivers to support several of the features of the X600 are not installed and not available to the XP SP2 operating system to autoinstall.

Normally its best to start with a fresh install of XP SP2 if you have ever had any other video card or video capture card installed it can prevent a smooth installation from the cdrom of the drivers needed to fully support the card.

Starting from a fresh install XP SP2 will attempt to (upgrade) the device drivers for the card to something other than the basic VGA device driver. You normally want to cancel that upgrade and stick with the plain VGA device driver.

Insert the cdrom and let it autoinstall (ALL) of the software packages from the cdrom. A graphical installer will start up and offer you choices, after the first menu option it will offer Express or Custom install.. use Express and let it start and walk away, it can take a good 30 to 40 minutes on some systems to install "everything" with long pauses in between.

The last step actually installs the device drivers.. after all the other software.. so you have to let it run to completion and not interrupt it.

Don't try to short circuit or speed up or customize any of the choices. The first time through you won't know what to expect and getting overly clever can prevent installing crucial components to successfully finish the last step of installing the device drivers.

After that it will suggest a reboot.. let it do that.. and let it completely finish starting up before logging in to the desktop or trying to do anything.

The key is (leave it alone) don't get in a hurry.. this is a critical operation that takes a lot of time.. if you don't leave it alone you will not be able to recover.. only a complete wipe and reinstall of the operating system will get you a second chance.. once its corrupted by clicking around prematurely.. you can't undo the damage.. you have to start over from bare metal by reinstalling the entire operating system. Its the only way.

There are lot of short cuts and workarounds.. but until you've seen it through at least one time.. you won't know what to expect and will waste a lot of time.. until you see it through at least one time.

After its all settled and installed, Device Manager should have no yellow safety cones.

VirtualDub will have a special "broken out" line item specifically for the X600, the line with (VFW) is not useful, its a legacy wrapper for Windows 98 drivers that used to work before XP.. it doesn't work any more.. ignore the VFW line item.

The most common problem with dealing with cards and XP is people expect things to happen fast.. nothing happens fast on XP compared to modern computers. You have to walk away and let things complete. Impatience is what causes most problems.

Its generally smooth after the device drivers install.

Problems after that usually revolve around motherboard problems or learning how to use VirtualDub.

Some USB 2.0 capture devices work well under XP SP2, Vista and W7.

But same steps apply, the cdrom device driver installs take a long time and don't provide a lot of feedback.

USB capture device however generally display a Blank Black screen until VirtualDub is switched "Away" from Overlay mode to Preview mode, then the picture appears.

ATI Wonder 600 USB is good if you can find one and can afford one. Be careful to get the "neck cable" sometimes they are sold second hand without the neck cable and then you can't connect a video source.

Switching from PCIe to USB capture devices will open up a new can of worms.

PCIe has its problems, USB has its problems.. they are not the same problems.. learning what to expect when letting the cdrom install is the first hurtle.

Patiently getting the device drivers fully installed is the first problem.
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  #3  
04-19-2020, 12:12 PM
keaton keaton is offline
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Sorry you're having such trouble. I know Windows can easily get in a bad state, as jwillis stated. It's been 13 months since I did all of this, but I'll try to recount and give a concise list of what I did to get things working with x600 Pro PCIe using 180-V01098-100 disc.

I don't recall having to do a fresh install of XP to make this work. However, that is the absolute safest way to go to be sure nothing bad is conflicting with what you're trying to install now. Or, maybe you have System Restore enabled and you have an older point in time saved that you can revert to which would get rid of changes you may have made recently that messed things up? Maybe it doesn't totally solve it, but it may increase your chances of undoing whatever is conflicting, and then doing the steps below to try and remove any existing video and ATI devices.

I made sure I had my motherboard drivers installed for PCI Express.

I went into Add/Remove Programs and uninstalled any video drivers I had. Maybe there's an ATI cleanup/uninstall utility? If there is, best to run that also.

Rebooted.

I went into Windows Device Manager, and removed all Devices (or uninstalled all drivers, whatever the correct term is) in the Display Adapters section.

Still in Windows Device Manager, I removed any existing Devices for video capture or video in the "Sound, video and game controllers" section. If there's any existing ATI audio devices in this section, may need to remove those also. Basically, trying to remove any devices that are related to video cards, video capture, audio capture.

Rebooted.

I chose to do a custom install of the "bare minimum" needed. But, since you do have the official install disc for the x600 card, there shouldn't be any harm in just letting the disc do a full install (i.e. the "Express" option). It is more of a preference of whether you want to install bare minimum or just let it install everything in case you might want to use it. If you prefer the "bare minimum" approach, here's what I did.

Ran the install disc (180-V01098-100 ) and did custom install, selecting only the components shown in "Step 1" of this post Black screen on AIW X600 Pro composite/svideo inputs?

Rebooted. In Device Manager, success should be measured by seeing X600 in Display Adapters and ATI WDM devices in "Sound, video and game controllers" section as seen in the same post linked above.

In hindsight, I'm not sure Step 2 in the post linked above is necessary if you are just going to do lossless capture. I only do lossless capture, and it didn't harm anything to do Step 2. But, if you get this far, you can try proceeding without install MMC, etc. as shown in Step 2 of that post. If you install Step 2, reboot when finished.

Be sure you have the correct connector attached to the x600 card's I/O connector (first picture in this post Black screen on AIW X600 Pro composite/svideo inputs?). Then plug the standard purple ATI AIW capture cable into the purple pin on the pictured connector. Plug in Svideo or composite input to the purple connector box. Select SVideo or Composite accordingly in Virtualdub Video menu under Video Source

In Virtualdub, select Capture AVI to go to Capture mode. You should see the following devices
vdub-x600-devices.JPG

Select ATI Rage Theater Video Capture

In Video menu, select Preview Mode and select Histogram to enable histogram. I experience a lot of green flicker in the Preview window. But I don't see it in my captures. I often have to select something in the Preview acceleration mode menu to get the green flicker to go away. I prefer to toggle it off of the "Off" setting, and then back to "Off". However, I don't think the mode effects how capture works. I believe it captures interlaced no matter what. But I prefer to be safe and use "Off". The flicker often comes back when I make levels adjustments in the Levels window. You must have preview mode selected to capture. I think Histogram also needs to be on to see video. Here's what I see
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In Audio menu, you should see ATI Rage Theater Audio at bottom. Here's what I have. I have onboard Realtek HD Audio, so you wouldn't see those items. You should have either an audio capture card device installed or some onboard audio capture driver installed. I think if you use the ATI Rage Theater Audio, you'd need a cable to link from the x600 card to your audio card. I haven't used an audio capture card, so I don't know for certain, but I'm sure you can find out through this forum. However, you can route your audio from the VCR out to either onboard audio input or audio capture card input and select whatever audio device is associated with that. Some prefer to keep audio linked to the video capture device, some do not.
vdub-x600-videomenu.JPG

I hope this helps. I am quite satisfied with this card, and definitely preferred it to the ATI 600 USB, because it gave me the internal proc amp controls that the USB does not so I am able to prevent video levels from being clipped. I hope you can get it working. Last resort would be to do a clean install of windows. This disc is the official software. So the issue has to be a conflict with what is already installed. It's just a question of whether you have to do a fresh install to make things work.


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  #4  
04-20-2020, 08:17 AM
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Few quick comments:

The PCIe cards can be a headache, more than AGP ever was (and people griped about those at the time, in hindsight nobody complaints at all anymore).

I heavily dislike x1800/x1900 cards, easily the worst of the PCIe, but had successfully built some systems for others in years past. So, due to that, I'd agree the x600 is "better".

I have lots (and lots!) of ATI AIW drivers, and MMC version. Also many CD ISOs.

The AMD site still has a lot of ATI AIW, but they tend to be obscured and hidden because AMD is SOBs. From the start, it has always seemed like AMD has disdain for legacy ATI users.

jwillis has a nice long post, and he has some good experience in recent years getting legacy AIW boxes to cooperate. He was able to recreate some of my more obscure AIW fiddling, which I found impressive. Maybe even go one further than my proof of concepts.

Clean XP install is always the way to go. And thn leave the site lightweight. Turn off all the MS "security" crap, and other nags, and TSRs. Then don't install non-required software. I have a few things like SoundForge installed on mine (to verify captured audio before moving files), and some basic utility like TeraCopy, but that's really it.

I use Overlay in VirtualDub for my AIWs. That can heavily be determined by the drives. Some will force Preview.

Audio Preview off. But it should pipe through the Turtle Beacn on another channel separate from VirtualDub anyway. That is, if wired correctly.

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05-07-2020, 10:38 PM
rom828q rom828q is offline
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Want to say thank you for the detailed replies. I tried re-installing everything multiple times a couple different ways, and unfortunately was unable to get the X600 to work. I was very frustrated and ultimately gave up on trying, and found an ATI TV Wonder HD 600 new-open-box on eBay for a really good price. I finally got that, and installed the software for it and it's worked immediately with no problems. I've successfully run over a dozen capture now with ZERO dropped frames, and excellent quality footage for my expectations (especially compared the the likes of VIDBOX and Elgato which I tried before realizing I hated the quality).

The workflow I'm currently using is a
JVC HR-S7500U and SONY TRV82 --> Kramer FC-400 TBC --> ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB
I have a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz audio card installed as well.

So far VirtualDub has worked great converting to AVI, although wow I'm going to use a lot of hard drive space with how many tapes I have.

Another question I have though, is does anyone have any thoughts or experience using the program "HandBrake" to convert the videos to MP4? I tried it last night, and it appears to work well. I want to store all the AVI files long term for highest quality possible, but also want to convert them to MP4 for easy playback and potential distribution to other family members.

Thanks for all the help so far, I have spent a lot of hours on this site and it's helped a ton. I'm sure I'll have more questions if I have any problems, but things seem to be rolling right now!
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05-08-2020, 01:09 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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You've created the finest and best capture file possible with the hardware that you have.

It gives you the best chance of precise editing, and color or video corrections with software.

But you pay for that with very large capture files up front.

In days past, after editing and color correction you would then turn towards compressing (or 'encoding') the finished video for distribution.. think of it as 'printing out' the final cut.

For small bits of video, software compression can be okay.. but people often tire of waiting so long for it to complete and are completely overwhelmed by all the choices they must make to set up a 'Profile'.

Handbrake comes with a few Profiles by default, and people sometimes tweak them. The tweaking undoes most of the benefit of using them and using Handbrake in the first place.

The Pyschology kind of goes like this.. first you like the results, then you get impatient, then you start tweaking 'telling yourself' your doing it to improve the picture (or learn what your doing).. then it becomes a race to the bottom of the barrel because you want it done faster. You end up with a Profile your proud of.. until someone else sees it.. and then you loose confidence and repeat the vicious cycle over and over.

Other people use a hardware card or external compression engine to perform the compression at close to 1:1 speed.. which means it takes (1) minute for (1) minute of video playback time. Rise and repeat finding a faster and faster hardware compression engine.

What you have is the very best video capture system you can get.. or nearly so.. in a reasonable price range, with the absolute most options for editing and correcting video.. but also the slowest video compression system.

Handbrake is more like a Hand Grenade in the wrong hands, but if used.. pick one of its canned preset Profiles and leave it alone.. it will just take a long time to compress.

The Fastest option is, don't do anything.. buy a larger hard drive, buy more hard drives and keep the original capture files.. until such time as you want to compress it to print a copy for someone else.. and use a DVD Authoring program to create ('aka master') a copy and burn it to a DVD (or BluRay). The last stage of a DVD Authoring program will automatically compress the video for you.. and you will have saved yourself all that time compressing video that no one will have ever watched. (Notice: No mention of "Handbrake").. simply put Handbrake is a time suck.. its okay to play around with it.. but its a massive waste of time in the end.

If small storage space is the original goal, then you want a capture device that compresses the video while its being captured.. at 1:1 speed.. so when the video stops playing.. the compressed capture file is complete and done.

Only you can decide what is more important.. Uber ability to fine edit and fine tune every option, at the expense of massive capture files. Or compressed video files that don't take up that much space.. but may have limited use if you ever want to edit or color correct them in the future.

People tend to try to err on the side of caution.. and say they want the "best" for everything they capture.. when really what they mean is (don't make me decide anything).

Reality is you should probably go through your tapes and decide if some are more worthy of "the best" treatment, or "the catalog" treatment. In some cases you don't even know what's on the tape.. and you can't make an informed decision without a first pass to "catalog" it and find out.

Once you have a good "catalog".. you can decide to go back and perform "the best" treatment on things like baby births, weddings and graduations.. or video that was never re-released on DVD ever again. But with a catalog as a guide its like looking at a photographers "Proof sheet" to pick and decide what is most important to you.. and where to invest your time.

Even if you decide to use Handbrake in the end.. cataloging first will save you an enormous amount of time.. and only have to be run on "some" of the tapes and not "all".

Regarding the x600:

Its still a very good card for PCIe.

But PCIe is a technology that was added to XP (after) it was released.

Thus device drivers from the motherboard manufacturer had to be installed to support PCIe.

Without the motherboard device drivers for PCIe, the slots would more or less be treated as PCI slots and not support all the functions of the PCIe cards inserted into them.

Manufacturer provided device drivers.. in general were of poor quality.

In some cases PCIe cards simply would not work with some motherboards, no matter how hard you tried.

The board maker stopped fixing bugs in the device drivers for sold products, or they went out of business.

Mostly these problematic motherboards got a bad reputation for PCIe support, and people simply did not use them with PCIe cards at all. Most of these only had one PCIe slot, and all the other slots were plain PCI. Most video cards back then were PCI or AGP. If you couldn't get an expensive PCIe graphics card to work.. you would grab an old PCI graphics card and move on.. vowing never to buy a motherboard from that manufacturer again.

I won't name names.. but when you talk about using a PCIe card.. its best to also explain the make of the motherboard your using. Don't fear the eye rolls.. if it was cheap.. it was probably cheap for a reason.

One of the nice things about the ATI All in Wonder cards is they could "share" the burden of compressing video, both during capture and after editing the saved captured video. That's what made them highly sought after. They were capable of "Raw" Uncompressed capture, or light compression, or hard compression.. both during capture.. or after editing when it was sent back to the card for compressing after the fact.

ATI All in Wonder cards were the best of all worlds.. in a relatively cheap little package.

Movie Studios wouldn't use them to replace a full production edit bay.. but they were still very capable, and within the price range for an average consumer.

Its understandable if you want to give up on the ATI x600.. but you are giving up on a lot.. there are easier to use AGP based ATI All in Wonder cards.. but a PCIe motherboard will not have an AGP slot.. so your going to have to go hunting a different motherboard if you want to either use the ATI x600 PCIe card or a different ATI AGP card.. it sounds like it will work for your USB capture device.. which is fine for Raw Uncompressed capture.. but it will come with downsides.

Whatever you decide to do, its probably worth your time to sell the ATI x600 to someone else and recoup some of your money to spend on whatever you decide to do next. (a) Use Handbrake (b) Find a separate video compressor (c) Look for an AGP motherboard.. or you could just put it away and capture for a while until deciding what you'd like to do.

Last edited by jwillis84; 05-08-2020 at 01:37 AM.
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05-08-2020, 08:43 AM
keaton keaton is offline
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Sorry you couldn't get the x600 working, but glad to hear you got another quality capture option working. Enjoy!

As far as why it didn't work, I would guess as jwillis did that the motherboard does not have PCI express drivers or at least one good enough to allow your card to work. If you haven't tried already, perhaps you can search the net or the manufacturer's site for the off chance you might still be able to find a more up to date PCI express driver for your motherboard. Assuming you find a reputable driver archive site, and not some of the more dangerous ones that try to add malware to your PC.

This site doesn't seem to recommend handbrake, but of course you are free to use it. If you search the site you'll find recommendations including avidemux or ffmpeg, those are a couple of free options. For old payware, MainConcept is referenced a lot on this forum, and is quite good. Vapoursynth also gets a lot of talk on the forum lately, but it is more of a simplified GUI version of Avisynth (which is for video restoration) for those that are not interested in Avisynth scripting to fix up their videos.

Be sure you are saving your AVI in Virtualdub using Huffyuv or Lagarith compression and either 4:2:2 (YUY2) or 4:2:0 (YV12) color space settings. By default, Virtualdub will save to RGB, which is way too big and doesn't buy you anything. If you see the files are way bigger than the capture file you made, that tells you Virtualdub is saving it to RGB because you didn't configure it to save with compression. Plenty of posts on the site should explain this in more detail.

EDIT: I meant to say Hybrid, not Vapoursynth. Realized this after lordsmurf's post below. Thanks for catching that!

Last edited by keaton; 05-08-2020 at 09:37 AM.
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05-08-2020, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keaton View Post
This site doesn't seem to recommend handbrake, but of course you are free to use it. If you search the site you'll find recommendations including avidemux or ffmpeg, those are a couple of free options. For old payware, MainConcept is referenced a lot on this forum, and is quite good. Vapoursynth also gets a lot of talk on the forum lately, but it is more of a simplified GUI version of Avisynth (which is for video restoration) for those that are not interested in Avisynth scripting to fix up their videos.
Hybrid makes Handbrake look like an obsolete limited (limiting) buggy dummyware (because it is).

I actually use Hybrid quite a bit these days, and for the past year or so. The Avisynth and Vapoursynth integration is a time saver, and has quite a few filters and presets. I have no knowledge on using Vapoursynth without a GUI, unlike Avisynth. You can expand Avisynth within Hybrid, but things get murky. I generally just do basic NR, QTGMC deinterlace (to 59.94 usually). Like Avisynth itself, the Avisynth within Hybrid isn't dummy/newbie-friendly, but it is much easier than scripting.

I need to make some reviews and guides for Hybrid, for our uses. I actually started one some time back, but never finished, sidetracked by COVID-19. I'm finally considering making some video guides, to tie into written guides, and posted on both Youtube and here concurrently.

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05-08-2020, 11:17 AM
rom828q rom828q is offline
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I did try and find an updated PCIe driver, but to no avail. I'm using a Dell Dimension 9200 motherboard with Core 2 Duo processor. It's an old computer we just had sitting up in storage, so instead of buying a new computer for this I wanted to see if I could just upgrade this one for capture. So I upped the RAM to 2GB, installed a new hard drive for the OS, added a 2TB extra one to capture to, and the added the audio card and X600 capture card. Unfortunately, I just was unable to get the capture feature of the card working. I may continue to try and get it working, but now that I have something that is working I am hesitant to mess with it further.

And yes, I am saving the AVI files as 4:2:2 (YUY2).

As far as Handbrake, I was using it on my Mac laptop. I was hoping to be able to use a separate computer computer (preferably Mac, because I have two of them) to convert some of the files to MP4 or a smaller and more "easily" played file format. I just want to stay on top of this as I go, versus capturing hundreds of tapes and then converting them later. And as far as the program I need to accomplish that, if I need to use a windows system program like Hybrid, then I guess I'll figure out how to do that. I might need to do some more reading on this site regarding that topic.

I essentially have two goals here. 1) I want high quality captures to preserve the films digitally in as close to their original quality as possible; and 2) I also want smaller files that are easier to store and distribute to family members who have less care as to the quality of the video as I do, but may simply want to watch them for nostalgic purposes every now and again.

Thanks once again for such great replies.
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05-08-2020, 02:09 PM
keaton keaton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rom828q View Post
And as far as the program I need to accomplish that, if I need to use a windows system program like Hybrid, then I guess I'll figure out how to do that. I might need to do some more reading on this site regarding that topic.
I am also not a windows person, and so I like doing some tasks from a Linux laptop. I have a windows install disc which I use to create a Windows Virtual Machine. Not something I could use to capture with, because virtualization doesn't work with that. However, I can do some post-processing tasks this way. Not a Mac user, but I'm sure there's virtual machine options. I think all you'd need after that is a Windows install disc with a valid key. Not sure if you'd be able to use the same Windows license in 2 places at once. Latest versions of Hybrid seem to be supported only in Linux and 64-bit Windows (i.e. not XP) at this point. But there are also older versions for XP or Mac mentioned on Downloads page of Hybrid site http://www.selur.de/downloads
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