#21  
05-05-2020, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabri View Post
Hi,
looks like this forum is one of the most interesting about old analogue video processing, so I have a question for you
Welcome.

Quote:
I have something like 50 old Video8, 15 VHS tapes and 4/5 Betamax tapes (all PAL) that I'd like to convert to digital.
That's a lot of tapes to do, so you want to do the correctly the first time. Plan carefully, don't just buy the first item you see.

Quote:
I've started around more or less 10 years ago with a combo VCR+DVD Recorder, Sharp DV-RW270 (still working) in this way:
Now I'd like to finish them, but looking at the old ones, quality was not pretty good, probably due to DVD Encoder and MPEG2 compression.
That recorder was lousy, and just amplified whatever MPEG compression issues existed. Certain DVD recorders are known for quality, coming from analog tapes (specific LSI decks, mostly JVC).

Quote:
- Video8 Camera (no S-Video output) -> Composite -> Combo DVD Recorder Input
- VHS -> Direct conversion to DVD with combo unit
- Betamax VCR (don't remember the model, but still working) -> BNC to composite adapter -> Composite -> Combo DVD Recorder Input
#1 problem = no TBCs in your workflow. So quality issues, and capturing issues.

Quote:
I was thinking to purchase a Sony Digital8 camera with firewire (Video8 with tapes inside the camera and VHS+Betamax with analog pass-through),
The camera is fine for playback of V8/Hi8/D8, but not for passthrough if you want better quality as stated.

Quote:
but then found here on the forum that DV compression could be worst than S-Video and capture card,
Correct.

Quote:
but it's not clear if the difference is noticeable also for PAL sources or only for NTSC ones.
In NTSC, there is drastic 50% obvious color loss, especially viewed on modern 50" HDTV sets.
In PAL, it's just slightly fuzzy. Color is like DVD, but clarity is slightly less, due to how the 4:2:0 is cosited.

Both PAL and NTSC have macroblocks.

Quote:
I think I'll have to exclude any external TBC because they looks quite expensive, or you have some cheaper models?
Some sort of external TBC is required, not optional. Whether you go down the TBC(ish) route with ES10/15, or otherwise. Just realize that the more tapes you have, and more varied the origins, the more likely you'll run into issues lacking full/actual TBC. The D8 camcorder should have line TBC for the V8/Hi8 tapes, but that still does nothing from dropped frames.

Quote:
For capture cards, which ones do you suggest that are compatible with Windows 10 64bit, maybe in can stay in 600 Euro with Sony Camera with S-Video and TBC, VHS VCR with TBC and capture card?
I have several in the marketplace, for $150 USD or less. Then you can put that extra $500 or so towards TBC. There are some great TBC(ish) combo of ES10/15+DVK that can be built in that $450 range (sometimes less, depends on supply). Then you'll have everything needed.

Also remember to buy it, use it, resell it. These are not forever purchases, but project purchases. You don't stick it in a drawer or closet when done. Recoup funds, these items hold value. So perhaps knowing that, budget can be increased?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
your straight to DVD stays your best option, although it's mpeg2 loss will not be that strong,
False and false.

Quote:
you need a capture device that has component input, like the Intensity series from BlackMagic Design, or go for Grass valley or Magewell.
Component is not at all suggested, nor are the devicdes from Blackmagic, Magewell, or Canopus / Grass Valley. In fact, those are literally the worst suggestions, with only Easycap/EZcap (Easycrap) cards being worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Good recordings may let you get by without a TBC.
Rarely.
It's an exception to the rule, but everybody thinks they'll be the exception. You'll have better odds gambling in Vegas/wherever.

Quote:
BMD cards do requires a good, stable, standards compliant signal which can be a problem with analog home recordings.
This is because Blackmagic cards were designed for NON-HOMEMADE sources, such as BetacamSP in studios. Not VHS, or whatever you shot in camcorders.

Quote:
if the original material contains much noise, as is common with home recordings, the results can be bad because noise eats bits in the data stream.
Not just bad, but the DVD version WILL look worse than the original tape. The goal of quality hardware is to not "make it better" as much as "not lose" anything. Consumer VCRs lost quality, compared to what existed on the tape. The ES10/15 can compensate some for this, but it's why better S-VHS VCRs are generally recommended. (Since this OP has only 15 tapes, I'd suggested the ES10/15 + current VCR, though I do so reluctantly.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabri View Post
I've read other topics as well on the forum and within the budget I've been able to grab a Sony Dcr-trv355e (for Video 8), a Matrox MXO2 capture card, a Panasonic ES15 as TBC replacement and I still have something (not so much probably) for a VHS, I'm still looking for it.
For betamax I'll just keep mine because it's still working and S-Video Betamax are extremely rare.
I think within my budget that's probably the best I could get, then when I have everything I'll have a look at software side.
I'm neutral on MX02 right now, still testing. It is needlessly expensive compared to some of the other options, especially if watching the budget.

Otherwise the plan sounds fine so far.

Don't buy capture software. Use VirtualDub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdd View Post
Matrox MXO2 capture card is much better then ati all in wonder cards for Pal signal better color and no Hanover bars at all and it does have some kind of internal TBC to
ATI AIW doesn't have hanover bars. It can happen to any card, electrical interference noise.
MX02 doesn't have TBC.

Quote:
encoding files to H264 or realtime capture to H264
Never capture directly to H.264 if quality matters (or even if it doesn't). H.264 is a highly compressed format, and needs pre-processing to look decent. It also handles SD interlace poorly, which is what all tapes are.

Quote:
but when i capture with Matrox MXO2 LE Max i capture to lossless codec like huffyuv and lagarith and ffv1
Huffyuv best.
Lagarith has too much overhead, causes dropped frames. (It captures in single thread/core, so overall computer CPU power doesn't matter.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
with MP4 you can get smaller files, with HEVC even smaller files, keeping the same quality. it's what you want.
No. That's not accurate. It's not a simple matter of making smaller files. Each has drastically different needs to encode, and different pitfalls to watch for. For example, MPEG has blocks, H.264 just smears it.

Quote:
This way you also avoid dropped frames, while capturing uncompressed
Don't capture uncompressed. Capture lossless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdd View Post
and i think Prores 422 is good enough for VHS capture
Yep. And for most things. I rarely do anything outside of ProRes422, when using Mac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabri View Post
and Windows 10 it's not officially supported (but seems to be working fine with Windows 8 drivers).
Until the next update. Good luck.

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  #22  
05-05-2020, 11:23 PM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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about the MXO2 tbc here you can read that it has some kind of tbc or maybe matrox support forum admin is wrong

http://forum.matrox.com/mxo/viewtopi...1acfa32e97972b

and about the hanover bars i have seen that many times on my Ati all in wonder cards i think itīs called hanover bars and if i pump up the saturation then itīs visible on all captures but this error is only on Pal Signals of course
maybe i do something wrong with ati all in wonder cards or do not understand
all my ati all in wonder cards are Pal or i mean they have Pal tv tuner except the usbīs i have does are Ntsc but that does not matter of course

but on mxo2 and aja io hd captures i can not see hanover bars even if i pump the saturation to max

Last edited by jjdd; 05-05-2020 at 11:43 PM.
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  #23  
05-06-2020, 12:26 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
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You must remember that "TBC" is a wide term, often used loosely, and can mean anything. Remember, the ADVC-300 had a TBC that did absolutely nothing (99%+ worthless TBC, pathetic).

As I often joke, sometimes I wonder if my toaster has a TBC.

Yes, hanover bars happen, on any card.

With ATI, it's often a matter of components in the computer, shielding (or lack thereof) on the specific card model, and just external power related noises seeping into the electrical. USA/NTSC may not have hanover bars, but there are others nuisances to deal with. It can even vary from exact card to card, same model/brand/etc. It's never fun to trroubleshoot. But power is almost always the issue. Sometimes it can be as simple as replacing the computer power cord. Interference issues can be pervasive.

I'm glad you found a capture solution that is working.

I tested the MX02 about 10 years ago, but am in the midst of re-testing it again. At the time, I did like the card, but need to put it through my current more-stringent testing procedures. Hence having a neutral opinion on it, at the moment.

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  #24  
05-06-2020, 03:58 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You must remember that "TBC" is a wide term, often used loosely, and can mean anything. Remember, the ADVC-300 had a TBC that did absolutely nothing (99%+ worthless TBC, pathetic).

As I often joke, sometimes I wonder if my toaster has a TBC.

Yes, hanover bars happen, on any card.

With ATI, it's often a matter of components in the computer, shielding (or lack thereof) on the specific card model, and just external power related noises seeping into the electrical. USA/NTSC may not have hanover bars, but there are others nuisances to deal with. It can even vary from exact card to card, same model/brand/etc. It's never fun to trroubleshoot. But power is almost always the issue. Sometimes it can be as simple as replacing the computer power cord. Interference issues can be pervasive.

I'm glad you found a capture solution that is working.

I tested the MX02 about 10 years ago, but am in the midst of re-testing it again. At the time, I did like the card, but need to put it through my current more-stringent testing procedures. Hence having a neutral opinion on it, at the moment.

ok now i know
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  #25  
05-07-2020, 05:31 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post


Don't capture uncompressed. Capture lossless.

you should explain this one ? uncompressed isn't lossless ? LordSmurf ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Component is not at all suggested, nor are the devicdes from Blackmagic, Magewell, or Canopus / Grass Valley. In fact, those are literally the worst suggestions, with only Easycap/EZcap (Easycrap) cards being worse.
That's BS ! Just have a good PC/Mac ! component works all the time for me ! no visible degradation.

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 05-07-2020 at 05:43 PM.
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  #26  
05-07-2020, 08:15 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
uncompressed isn't lossless ?
Uncompressed are huge files with high data rates. There are lossless video compression systems. Consider file compression for example; ZIP files are compressed, and they are lossless, work well for ascii-based documents and spreadsheets, and generally much smaller than the uncompressed files.

Quote:
That's BS ! Just have a good PC/Mac ! component works all the time for me !
What counts is that you are satisfied with the results you get with your system.

The recommendations from this heavy hitters here are based on their experience with what is legacy at best; i.e., a wide variety of source material recorded on consumer gear (e.g., VHS, video8. etc.) , available equipment (much of which is 20+ years beyond manufacturer's support), and materials aging often under less than ideal conditions. It also reflacts their experience in restoring old analog video to look the way it should have when new.

The gear they recommend is that which they have found works well for them across the wide spectrum of analog media out there, especially the consumer/home use formats. The gear they downgrade may be for a variety of reasons such as:
- using DV (or other) compression which is lossy and does not perform well with noisy video,
- suitability of the output file for extensive image correction processing
- difficulty with video signals that are not precisely within spec with respect to timing, waveform, and amplitudes
- internal over- or poorly-processing the video signal read from tape
- added internal distortion and/or noise
- sloppy/jittery output
- use of unnecessary signal conversion steps that can add distortion, phase shifts, and noise
- limited ability to"future proof" the capture for possible revisiting in the future.

As to use of high end professonal broadcast gear for home formats; most of that gear is designed to work optimally with a high end professional signal. Results with home grown VHS can be problematic. Its kind of like Formula one race cars run best on that level fuel, and would not like being fed the low octane swill from the local cut rate generic gas station. It is a matter of matching the tool to the job.

It becomes a question of how good is good enough. The bottom line is; "you pays your money and takes your choices."

Last edited by dpalomaki; 05-07-2020 at 08:27 PM.
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  #27  
05-08-2020, 04:47 AM
Gabri Gabri is offline
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BTW I received the Digital8 Camera and played some tapes connected with composite to my Samsung 43" 4K (haven't received the MXO2 and ES15 yet). Seems it's working properly and it doesn't have big tracking issues (horizontal lines) even if most of the tapes have been recorded in LP, but especially on high contrast scenes (IE people with dark ski suit on the snow) and/or when people are moving quickly I see some small lines around the objects.
Unfortunately it's quite difficult to record it with a phone in front of the TV but up to me looks to be some de-interlacing + upscaling issue of the TV (probably not optimized for video composite in) and maybe caused by LP sources, what do you think?
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  #28  
05-08-2020, 09:55 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabri View Post
BTW I received the Digital8 Camera and played some tapes connected with composite to my Samsung 43" 4K (haven't received the MXO2 and ES15 yet). Seems it's working properly and it doesn't have big tracking issues (horizontal lines) even if most of the tapes have been recorded in LP, but especially on high contrast scenes (IE people with dark ski suit on the snow) and/or when people are moving quickly I see some small lines around the objects.
Unfortunately it's quite difficult to record it with a phone in front of the TV but up to me looks to be some de-interlacing + upscaling issue of the TV (probably not optimized for video composite in) and maybe caused by LP sources, what do you think?
@Gabri: You are correct Gabri, I have a fairly new Sony Bravia (LCD) tv, but it does a lousy job displaying a component video signal, on my retina screen i see much better detail even when enlarged... the Sony displays weird artefacts, the tapes recorded in LP mode, will probably not transfer that good into a file... some artefacts from your Video8 tapes can also come the low quality sensor chip of that camera, noise you have always in the dark black areas, slightly darker contrast then normal will help to disguise that.


@dpalomaki: Thankyou dpalomaki, yes, you're right, that's the reason, so most of the time it's a balance between options to consider, and also try other things, and these don't have to be exact the same things that are happening in the lordsmurf universum

btw .. the good recommended TBC's are also of broadcast quality/background, consumer TBC's are not recommended, only a "green version" with different firmware seems to be of quality in the consumer range of TBC devices.
Transfering DV through Firewire is just not easy on a Mac while this no problem on a windows PC...

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 05-08-2020 at 10:07 AM.
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