Family video workflow VCR and TBC selection?
 

Here is a sample of a Sony SLV-N750 VCR -> GV-D1000 -> Firewire DV capture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys03CFApvao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOcmTObDDhE

Ignore the sound. I ran it through a gain filter twice and then noise removal. What kinds of things in these movies would be helped by a better workflow? I'm just curious to know if all my effort will be noticeable. :) The first one is probably worse than the second. I thought that the GV-D1000 was performing some kind of TBC. For the age of the videos I thought it did a good job? I was also recording onto DV tape at the same time, just-in-case.

These are the type of videos I care about recording at the moment.

Based on what I've read here, the AG-1980P should be the best VCR. (home videos, a mixture of SLP, EP, SP) If that is the case, which additional TBC would be recommended considering the VCR already has a TBC inside? I understand that many of these devices are good at doing different things, and that some are better than others for specific applications. I've read quite a bit that the ES10 is good for cleaning up home videos, but why get an AG-1980 just to buy more external parts? Is my very low hour (less than ~30) SLV-N750 good enough to be used with some external TBC units? ES10 + TBC-1000, ES10 + DVK-100? I want the best results possible and don't want to try to save money (within reason).

BTW, today I watched a TBC-1000 get listed on ebay for $80. By the time by brain had registered what it was looking at, it was sold. Less than a few minutes after going up!

A better work flow is to get rid of DV all together.

I forgot to mention that I will be using an ATI AIW card, probably an AGP 7200/7500 model.

I am nearly convinced that there is some kind of TBC function in the GV-D1000. So is this guy:

http://bigheadamusements.com/wordpress/?p=1705

Can anyone guess what "kind" of TBC it is doing? ES-10? TBC-1000? In manuals of similar older devices all it says is "to correct jitter".

What would the ideal workflow look like between an AG-1980 and the AIW 7200 for home videos like the ones I linked to in the first post? If the 1980 already does a line TBC, do I only need a TBC-1000 type device? Should it be clean enough to use a DVK-100? Or do I still want a ES10/15 in there? Is there any place in there I would want to use my GV-D1000?

Wait. The GV-D1000 is a MiniDV recorder (I have one). It's source material is already digital and any loss of color information happened while the tapes were being recorded; you're not going to be able to get it back now. There's no point in doing analog captures from a MiniDV tape; might as well just use FireWire and transfer an exact copy of the tape to your editing computer.

On the other hand, if you're using a GV-D800 8mm/Hi8 recorder (which also has FireWire plus analog) for 8mm/Hi8 tapes, then analog is to be preferred if you have a full-frame external TBC like the TBC-1000. The workflow would be essentially the same as for the AG-1980; connect your TBC to the video source (VCR) with S-Video cable and then run S-Video out of the TBC to your capture card/device. The line TBC in the AG-1980 or GV-D800 will ensure that the full-frame TBC receives a signal free of jitter, and the full-frame TBC in turn will ensure that your capture device receives a rock-solid, pure signal.

Source material analog: Capture analog (with time base correction). Source material digital: Make an exact copy of the source using FireWire. Edit with the program of your choice and render your output to the format you prefer. Just keep everything lossless or original DV file from capture/transfer in to the point of final rendering, as much as possible.

I was using the MiniDV VCR as a passthru only. Mostly because I didn't trust that the computer wouldn't crash and/or the tape get eaten...so I recorded to DV while capturing with FireWire. I don't remember at the time if I knew about or valued the possible TBC that the unit would provide.

Does the AG-1980 do line based TBC? If so, do I still need the ES-10? Do you think the line TBC is good enough to feed directly to a DVK-100 or FA-300? Those would both be a full frame TBC, right?

Hi, Eissug. I'm curious to hear if you've had any more experience or learned anything else about a workflow involving the GV-D1000. I've had one for years and recently stumbled across that same blog post you mentioned previously re: it having TBC.

I've done some reading on this forum over the past year in anticipation of buying a S-VHS player and capture card, but I've yet to pull the trigger. Would love to hear what solution you ended up with and how happy you are with the results.

This item has a "TBC" much in the way that the Canopus ADVC-300 does. In other words, it really does not. What exists is super weak line TBC, no frame (sync) TBC, and you'll be better off even with as cheap ES10/15 type, But also realizing ES10/15 isn't great, not a "TBC replacement" of any kind. Actual line TBCs in quality JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCRs, and actual frame TBCs like the TBC-1000, cannot be replaced with random items that "claim" or "seem" to have TBCs.

The Youtube videos in that first post have many slight wiggle/unstable line timing errors, and I see a few jerks/drops/dupes as well. It really looks identical to what I'd expect from a generic "good" consumer VHS VCR with no TBCs at all.

Thanks for your input, lordsmurf, as well as all of your insights throughout the forum.

It was intriguing to consider the GV-D1000 as part of a workflow, but I've done more reading and I'm convinced that the double TBC approach with a S-VHS VCR and DVD recorder passthrough will be the way to go. Will be keeping my eye out for the best units that I can afford. Thanks, again.

I ran about 15 home videos from 1984 to 1988 or so through it. I thought the results were pretty good, but my plan is to redo everything with a BE75 and use a lossless codec. I never saw any indications that the video sync was bad, I just want the absolutely best archive possible. Hard drives are too cheap these days to use a DV codec. :)

Nice! Glad you at least were able to protect your videos by using the Sony deck. Good luck with the lossless workflow. I'm sure it will be nice to see the results.

What are you going to use with the BE75 for SDI routing to computer? Try Black Magic if you haven't gotten one yet, MediaExpress is a good capture app.

There are documented ways to capture with VirtualDub, so I'd go down that path first. Or at least compare it to MediaExpress.

There isn't any "double TBC" here.

The ES10/15 has strong+crippled line, S-VHS VCR has excellent line. You can only have one line in a path. If VCR engaged, ES10/15 does nothing. If VCR off, then ES10/15 can do line. But the ES10/15 line will be worse in some ways, even if stronger for tearing. The ES10/15 is only suggested for tearing, not general use. But if forced, it will suffice with weaker frame chasing it.

Neither VCR nor recording has frame. VCR has nothing. ES10/15 has non-TBC basic frame sync, which isn't always that useful. It's not there for you, but for itself. There is a difference when devices "also have" something for it's own needs, vs. your external source needs.

Recommended workflow =
JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC >
> DataVideo/Cypress type (non-flawed) frame sync TBC ?
> quality capture card

SDI capture is closed-loop along the SDI path, and has downsides, especially for consumer sources. It's not a method I suggest, at least not in all scenarios.

Thanks for clarifying. In all of my research, I guess I misunderstood the relationship between a VCR int. TBC and a passthrough ext. TBC. Rather than each requiring the other, it's an either/or situation, depending on the needs of the tape?

Unfortunately, I can't afford anything more than a DVD recorder passthrough for any kind of external TBC. That being the case, sounds like maybe I should first see how whichever deck I end up with handles my VHS tapes without a passthrough/external TBC and then go from there?

Well, again, it doesn't have any "external TBC" function (as compared to what you'd normally consider an "external TBC" aka frame sync TBC).

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I don't think it's that drastic. Get the ES10/15, and use it as best as possible. If you get a better with-TBC (line TBC) VCR, then you'll just rely on the ES10/15 non-TBC frame sync. I'd definitely NOT use a generic VHS VCR, and at worst get a non-TBC JVC S-VHS deck.

You must have some sort of frame correction. The non-TBC frame sync is somewhat weenie compared to an actual frame TBC, but "cleaner" (relative to VHS) sources may allow limited problems with a good line TBC (either ES10/15, or the better VCR).

Note that you don't just get a quality VCR for the TBC -- and I just said why. "Quality VCR". Aside from TBC, the units are far more robust than low-end home/consumer VCRs. Better transports help output more stable signals, etc. So a non-TBC JVC is way better than a non-SVHS deck.

Be very aware that shopping on eBay for VCRs can be ugly. I recently got in a problem deck from somebody local, sourced from eBay. It looks like a whole tape oxide shed inside. I only took it because it's easy to do, though tedious and messy, need right tools and cleaners. Another "tested" and "working" deck, of course. :rolleyes: :screwy: