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  #21  
07-12-2020, 05:08 AM
jjdd jjdd is offline
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you can maybe get aja card to work with virtual dub if you install ffdshow i did write about it here

Post NR:12 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...trox-mx02.html

but i think it´s best to use AJA Machina
but virtual dub have more capture codecs
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  #22  
07-12-2020, 09:49 AM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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I took some snapshots from the test captures of the D96 tape. This tape is a recording of a TV broadcast made in 1996.

01 - D96 - Everything off.avi_snapshot_00.16.481.jpg
Everything off
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VCR TBC
01 - D96 - VCR TBC.avi_snapshot_00.11.441.jpg
AVT-8710 external TBC only
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AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC


01 - D96 - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi_snapshot_00.15.520.jpg
Everything off
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VCR TBC
01 - D96 - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi_snapshot_00.16.600.jpg
AVT-8710 external TBC only
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AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC


02 - D96 - Everything off.avi_snapshot_01.01.327.jpg
Everything off
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VCR TBC
02 - D96 - VCR TBC.avi_snapshot_00.56.720.jpg
AVT-8710 external TBC only
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AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC



02 - D96 - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi_snapshot_01.00.800.jpg
Everything off
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VCR TBC
02 - D96 - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi_snapshot_01.01.841.jpg
AVT-8710 external TBC only
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AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC



03 - D96 - Everything off.avi_snapshot_01.12.959.jpg
Everything off
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VCR TBC
03 - D96 - VCR TBC.avi_snapshot_01.08.360.jpg
AVT-8710 external TBC only
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AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC



03 - D96 - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi_snapshot_01.12.430.jpg
Everything off
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VCR TBC
03 - D96 - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi_snapshot_01.13.557.jpg
AVT-8710 external TBC only
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AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC


Here's a zip file for convenience's sake: 04 - D96 - Everything off.avi_snapshot_01.23.401.jpg


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  #23  
07-12-2020, 02:36 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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First and foremost you don't seem to have video stabilization problems so take the AVT out it is not helping in this case and sometimes making things worse, Is there a user manual for the Machina? Your screen shots don't show all the drop down options.
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  #24  
07-12-2020, 03:06 PM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
First and foremost you don't seem to have video stabilization problems so take the AVT out it is not helping in this case and sometimes making things worse, Is there a user manual for the Machina? Your screen shots don't show all the drop down options.
KONA for PC software - Installation and Operation Guide
https://www.aja.com/pdf/KONA_PC_Manual_5.0.pdf

Go to "Chapter 4: Using AJA’s Machina Application". It can be found on page 51 of the PDF (page 41 in document).

I've also prepared a file with some five second clips. It contains:

D96 - Skurt - everything off.avi
D96 - Skurt - VCR TBC.avi
D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi
D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi

D96 - Skurt.zip
https://easyupload.io/8jcqhw

-- merged --

I thought it might be interesting to see the difference between a capture using the Canopus ADVC-300 device and the AJA Kona LSe card.

Canopus ADVC-300.jpg
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  #25  
07-12-2020, 04:16 PM
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Which is which? The first image is very clearly blurred, chroma smeared, and deinterlaced.
Captured how?
If that was the Canopus, even DV shouldn't look that bad. Something is wrong somewhere.

As per site policy, if you want Site Staff help with sample clips, those must be attached here to forum posts. 99mb max file size, and that is more than enough for a few seconds. We don't need long clips for samples. Attach those 4 clips separately. I'm actually concerned how you joined those. You've added a variable.

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  #26  
07-12-2020, 05:43 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I would try SMPTE and also give "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2Vuy’" a try, I don't know how different from "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2vuy’" is but it doesn't hurt to try.
Also try capture to RGB and convert with vdub to yuv2, I have no clue how different from 2vuy or 2Vuy.

Last edited by latreche34; 07-12-2020 at 05:53 PM.
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  #27  
07-12-2020, 06:09 PM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Which is which? The first image is very clearly blurred, chroma smeared, and deinterlaced.
Captured how?
If that was the Canopus, even DV shouldn't look that bad. Something is wrong somewhere.
The first one is from the Canopus ADVC-300. The second one is from the AJA Kona LSe card directly connected to the VCR (no TBC). The Canopus captures my father made back in 2010 are all similar. It's the reason why I'm trying to do this again.

Quote:
As per site policy, if you want Site Staff help with sample clips, those must be attached here to forum posts. 99mb max file size, and that is more than enough for a few seconds. We don't need long clips for samples.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that policy. The clips are ~95 MB each and only 5 seconds so that's hopefully enough.


Quote:
Attach those 4 clips separately.
Will do.

Quote:
I'm actually concerned how you joined those. You've added a variable.
"how you joined those"? I'm not sure what you mean.

In order to make the clips I captured the tape using different ways (TBC, no TBC, etc). Then I imported it into VirtualDub and found a place where the scene changed so that I can have a defined starting point. Then I stepped using the arrow keys until I found the first clear frame, and used the buttons to select a range, direct stream copy, export as AVI.

In the other clips I found the place where the scene changed, and then used "Select Range..." to type in the same number of frames as the first clip. Repeat several times to get several clips.


Attached Files
File Type: avi D96 - Skurt - everything off.avi (93.42 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: avi D96 - Skurt - VCR TBC.avi (93.42 MB, 6 downloads)
File Type: avi D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi (93.42 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: avi D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi (93.42 MB, 4 downloads)
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  #28  
07-12-2020, 06:15 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Here is the second clip (Without AVT) properly cropped to the original standard 704x576, de-interlaced and encoded to H-264, I believe the tape quality is bad, Unless you are willing to do some post restoration work, it is what it is:


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 D96 - Skurt - VCR TBC Cropped, De-interlaced and encoded.mp4 (18.83 MB, 17 downloads)
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  #29  
07-12-2020, 06:18 PM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I would try SMPTE and also give "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2Vuy’" a try, I don't know how different from "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2vuy’" is but it doesn't hurt to try.
Also try capture to RGB and convert with vdub to yuv2, I have no clue how different from 2vuy or 2Vuy.
I've since found the manual for the AJA Machina software and it says:

Quote:
YUV<->RGB Range
This control mode should almost never be changed from its CGR default. This setting is only for highly-knowledgeable users that must define how color values will be mapped when doing the color space conversion—far less than 1% of all users should ever need to use it. Use this feature only for capturing YUV source into an RGB file, or to play an RGB file out to YUV. The CGR setting maps the typical YUV values to typical RGB values. For example, 8bit YUV 16 is mapped to 8 bit RGB 0, and YUV 235 to RGB 255. The ‘SMPTE’ setting for this control maps YUV into RGB using the exact YUV values. Therefore, 8 bit YUV 16 will map to RGB 16, and so forth. Only change this setting from its default if you are absolutely sure you know the benefits/consequences. This feature is not the same as a broadcast safe limiter.
I don't know the difference between these yuv-vuy things. I'll try to google it later. AJA support said to use 2vuy so that's what I've been doing until now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Here is the second clip (Without AVT) properly cropped to the original standard 704x576, de-interlaced and encoded to H-264, I believe the tape quality is bad, Unless you are willing to do some post restoration work, it is what it is:
Interesting. De-interlacing seems to have gotten rid of those horizontal lines which is nice.

It wouldn't surprise me if tape quality was bad. It is a TV-broadcast recorded in 1996 after all. Still, it's part of my childhood and there's even a part where you can see me among the audience, so it's something I'd like to keep. I actually tried to write to the broadcaster and I asked if I could have a copy from their archive but they said no.

So, yeah. I'll have to try digitizing what I do have.

I'll try to figure out post restoration once I've gotten all of the tapes into the computer.
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  #30  
07-12-2020, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith View Post
Interesting. De-interlacing seems to have gotten rid of those horizontal lines which is nice.
Are you confusing interlacing with noise/artifacts ("lines")?

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  #31  
07-12-2020, 11:53 PM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Are you confusing interlacing with noise/artifacts ("lines")?
lines vs no lines.jpg

The example picture shows a background character. Look at her hands and compare left and right picture.


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  #32  
07-13-2020, 12:15 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Interlaced video is not meant to be captured as stills, The video frame contains two fields with different time stamps and when they are blended together the time difference shows the changes in video between the two fields. You either have to de-interlace the video like I showed you in the sample I posted or leave it alone and the TV will handle the de-interlacing for you, Just keep in mind like computer video programs, there are TV's with different de-interlacing capabilities too so don't expect miracles.
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  #33  
07-13-2020, 01:10 AM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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I know you guys mean well but there is no need to further focus on interlacing. I know what it is, why it exists, and how it works. I was born in the 80s and grew up with this stuff.

Anyway, what do you think is the best way to capture the D96 tape? What combination of hardware is best? TBC vs no TBC? I read that the AVT-8710 has too much gamma. Is it possible to correct this? What settings are recommended for the AVT? Etc.
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  #34  
07-13-2020, 01:32 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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My recommendation is VCR TBC/DNR ON -> S-Video cable -> Aja card (with internal reference sync option i think it was free run) -> Lossless AVI, from here you can do whatever you want with the lossless files.
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  #35  
07-13-2020, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith View Post
I read that the AVT-8710 has too much gamma.
Hogwash. Rubbish. Nonsense.

Processing videos has many affects, and it will change from source tape to source tape. You must realize that this is consumer videotape, and is controlled chaos that spits out picture and sound. Wrangling that chaos can alter varying values, sometimes requiring multiple gear stacks and extra tweaking to gear/features like proc amps.

Any TBC can have excess gamma, depending on source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith View Post
What combination of hardware is best?
I don't like your VCR. I likely has bad caps.
Are those Hannover bars in the source tape?

Worst = Everything off
Blows highlights, over contrasted, diminished-but-present Hannover bars, some weird interlacing.

Next worse = AVT-8710 external TBC only
Worse highlights, but stable interlace.

2nd best = VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but increased Hannover bar contrast.

Best = AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but darks lightened, some grain suppressed, no Hannover bars.
Fix = use AVT-8710 proc amp, tune down brightness.

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  #36  
07-13-2020, 08:00 AM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Hogwash. Rubbish. Nonsense.

Processing videos has many affects, and it will change from source tape to source tape. You must realize that this is consumer videotape, and is controlled chaos that spits out picture and sound. Wrangling that chaos can alter varying values, sometimes requiring multiple gear stacks and extra tweaking to gear/features like proc amps.

Any TBC can have excess gamma, depending on source.
Ok.

Quote:
I don't like your VCR. I likely has bad caps.
Fiddlesticks.

Quote:
Are those Hannover bars in the source tape?
I don't know. This was recorded from an over the air TV broadcast in 1996 so I guess anything is possible. I hauled out two other VCRs I had in storage and used each to capture two minutes of the beginning of the tape and then took some snapshots for comparison. I hope this helps.

comparison.jpg

Quote:
Worst = Everything off
Blows highlights, over contrasted, diminished-but-present Hannover bars, some weird interlacing.

Next worse = AVT-8710 external TBC only
Worse highlights, but stable interlace.

2nd best = VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but increased Hannover bar contrast.

Best = AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but darks lightened, some grain suppressed, no Hannover bars.
Fix = use AVT-8710 proc amp, tune down brightness.
Thank you for your help. I don't have the experience to know what I should look for so it's hard to tell.

I've been playing around with the AVT-8710 settings. In one tape I paused the image on the VCR when it showed the title screen and adjusted brightness until the black background was actually black. I then found a close up of a human face and adjusted color and tint until it looked more natural.

I don't know if I did it right, but I think it looks better than it used to at least.


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  #37  
07-13-2020, 08:13 AM
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You don't want to crush blacks. VHS black was never true deep black, just charcoal colored.

Be careful with changing colors. If monitor not calibrated, you may just be making the video worse to match bad monitor colors.

Your RTV966 may have issues, but it's much better than the other VCRs tested.

Note that I like the model of RTV 966 VCR ... but it seems yours has possibly failing caps. I've seen similar strange color and noise issues with bad-cap AG1980 decks. After a TGrant fix, flawless performance.

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  #38  
07-13-2020, 11:19 AM
Aerith Aerith is offline
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I was wondering if it was the tape that was the problem or the Blaupunkt VCR? So I decided to try a test.

I prepared a file (PM5544 test card.avi) and put it on a USB memory stick. I put the USB stick into the LG DVD/VCR player and connected the LG to the Blaupunkt via SCART cable.

The end result is two files. The first is just a passthrough from the LG, via the Blaupunkt, and captured by the Kona card. The second file is the Blaupunkt playing from tape it had previously recorded on. The tape itself is ancient, probably from around 2001, but I don't have anything newer.

I hope this helps.


Attached Files
File Type: avi PM5544 test card.avi (21.25 MB, 6 downloads)
File Type: avi BBC2 test card passthrough from dvd player (5 seconds).avi (98.89 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: avi BBC2 test card from VHS tape (5 seconds).avi (98.89 MB, 6 downloads)
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  #39  
07-13-2020, 12:37 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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You are complicating things too much, The purpose of an external TBC is to stabilize the image it has nothing to do with picture quality, It should fix problems like frame roll, frame bending or flagging, out of sync video/audio. As I already told you the Aja is working well on doing that so for this tape you can leave the AVT-8710 out.

It seems that the LG VCR from a "still" looks better but if it doesn't have line TBC it is no good.
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  #40  
07-13-2020, 01:58 PM
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External TBCs are not "for" visual, but a byproduct of correction does hit the visuals. In this case, I think there's a distinct correction happening in regards to upper luma. So for that, I'd definitely leave it in. I'd wager a lot of other stray error in the tape will be corrected as well, we're just seeing a tiny sample clip.

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