Capturing VHS with the AJA Kona LSe card?
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Ok, so after a lot of adventure, including having the AJA Kona LHe card I bought disappear in shipping, four months later I finally have almost everything ready.
My setup looks like this:
The capture software I have available is:
I did a test capture today with Premiere Pro. It had three options:
Filename: Untitled Clip 01.avi Contains: VT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Link: https://easyupload.io/1g58fq Because of the size of the uncompressed AVI, I used FFMPEG to compress the others with FFV1 compression. I'll leave the above original for reference. Filename: capture.zip Contains: AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC, VCR TBC only, No TBC Link: https://easyupload.io/x9l1pn Attachment 12121 Is it just me or does the picture look better without the TBCs? Is this a setting problem? I'll have to test some more. Anyway, I was wondering what the best way to capture VHS with the AJA Kona LSe card is? What software should I use? What settings? Thank you for your help! |
Going by the pictures, it looks like the Kona LSe has some TBC functionality, it seems to be correcting horizontal wiggle like the VCR TBC does, otherwise no-TBC one would look less straight. From images on google it has one of the chips from Analog Devices, many of which have that functionality. Whether it can fulfill the function of the AVT as well i don't know, hard to say without the video.
There is a bit more contrast on the no-tbc picture, so maybe you just need to adjust the contrast or brightness a bit on the AVT or capture device, taking care to avoid clipping. I haven't used these cards, so I don't know what tools there are for it. On the left example the no-tbc picture is not the same frame as the other one, either you picked out two different frames, or there is something causing the field order to be different. |
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Regarding frames, I'm not sure which picture you are thinking of, but I tried to eyeball it as best I could in MPC and then just took a snapshot. I figured it would at least give people a quick overview in case they didn't feel like downloading gigabytes of video. Edit: If you are talking about the horizontal lines thing, then that is present throughout the AVT-8710 TBC video clip, but not in the others. I don't know why. |
Looked at the clips now, it does look like the causes the fields to be out of phase for some reason compared to the clips without the AVT, that's odd. The JVC camcorder does that sometimes, but wasn't aware of a one of the oft-used TBCs causing it. It's something that can be fixed in post with an avisynth script, or with a bit more fumbling with ffmpeg (it may sometimes be needed anyway on TV recordings of stuff from film sources as they're sometimes not in phase.)
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Looks like the AVT TBC is blurring the picture and dimming it. leave it out unless needed. Another member here used the AVT with the BE75 and results were exactly like here, but taking out the AVT produced a sharp and more contrasted picture. Stacking TBC's is not always good especially when mixing consumer and pro TBC's.
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I noticed in the manual that the AJA Kona LSe has a 5 line adaptive comb filter. I understand that this is a good thing, though perhaps not as good as a 3D filter?
Anyway, I sent an e-mail to AJA support and asked them what capture software they would recommend and they said to use the Machina software that came with the drivers. As I was poking around in the settings I noticed a "Reference" setting with the options "Free Run", "External", and "Input". Attachment 12123 I wonder if adjusting this setting would help with the fields? |
Comb filter works with composite input only, It is not needed for S-Video input. The reference I believe is the timing signal, Input defaults to the signal being captured, External is if you are connecting to an external reference signal to one of the connectors labeled external, Free run could be the TBC of the device. I'm not sure you'll have to read the manual.
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I was thinking about those horizontal lines and decided to try using VirtualDub to deinterlace.
Attachment 12124 Looks like an improvement to me. Though I'm not sure why it is necessary to do this in this case but not in the others? |
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Genlock (Freerun, Ref In, Video In)Selects how KONA LS will synchronize program video: Freerun: in this mode, KONA LS generates sync without an external reference source Ref In: directs KONA LS to use the Ref Video source for sync (usually an analog black burst video signal) Video In: directs KONA LS to use whichever video input source has been selected in the Inputs tab window for sync When I'm recording in AJA Machina, if I press the red record button too early I get a message "Error - No Video Input is detected". If I press it later though, I miss the first couple of seconds of video. Can anything be done about this? |
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if there was still analog signal channels then maybe the internal tuner in the VHS can work to but im not sure if it will work to trick the capture card i remember i have done something similar About the Pal Film interlace thing here you can see how to fix it POST NR:35 then no need to deinterlace it looks like progresive but itīs interlaced video http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...quality-2.html Pal VHS Film if you do in avisynth SeparateFields() you can see that the 2 fields are the same or look the same in time and if you see then interlace lines then you have to trim the start field so it get align but you see better in the link i did post how to fix that itīs good to always test SeparateFields() on PAL vhs tape and see if itīs real interlace or fake interlace hehe or how do i say it :) but if the 2 fields look difference in time then itīs real interlace video :) |
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Good :)
here is a example how to trim the start field to align it you have to edit AVISource("D:\VHS.avi") and maybe change to AssumeBFF() but im sure itīs AssumeTFF() Code:
AVISource("D:\VHS.avi") Code:
AVISource("D:\VHS.avi") |
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In other news, I've been testing with an old home video VHS tape from 1993. This particular tape had disappointing performance even when new and the years since haven't helped.
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thinking if Canopus AVDC-300 can work as passthrough to stabilize the signal to your aja capture card if you still have it
i see that Canopus AVDC-300 have input and output s-video i use my Matrox MXO2 as passthrough to stabilize the signal to my Aja IO HD i connect them with SDI to SDI cable it was best quality i did try component cable and hdmi cable but it was not as good quality as sdi to sdi cable i do have a DataVideo TBC-5000 but it degrades the signal little the Matrox MXO2 as passthrough i like this method more best quality is of course VHS > Aja IO HD but it does not always work very unstable |
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I captured the tape once without the TBC and I'm currently capturing it a second time with the TBC so that I can compare. Another 30 minutes to go... |
Aerith ok :)
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You are using the wrong settings, you shouldn't have any problem capturing lossless with this card even without the AVT, get with Jwillis he has a similar setup on a mac he might be able to help you, meanwhile post all the screen options available we should be able to tel you what to select and what not to select.
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Premiere is NOT a capturing software, but an NLE with some pretty crappy capturing functionality built in. Great NLE, use it myself. Miserable capturing tool. Don't use that. Although it has proved itself pretty buggy (therefore lousy) with many carsd, have you tried VirtualDub2 for capturing? It may work, as the capturing abilities have been expanded (though at the cost of somewhat messing up cards that had worked flawlessly in 1.9.x official), Also please attach small clips to forum posts. There's no need for us to download 1gb+ longer files, and in fact some folks cannot (thus not be able to help). Quote:
To test if a true line TBC is working, it also needs a harsher timing test, something very obvious. I've seen far too many instances where line TBC is claimed. Yet, whatever it was, was really weak and had very little effects. It would fail a harsher test. BTW, if the Panasonic line TBC is on, any downstream correction would either be minute or non-existent. So the NV-HS1000 TBC would need to be off. Quote:
Never been too quick to place blame. All we know is that the workflow as created is rejecting the TBC for whatever reason. Not that the TBC is bad. (Although a main difference here is that the TBC was already vetted to work well, in another workflow use case.) Quote:
Has this been recreated with multiple sources tapes of wildly different origin? (ie, not made in same camera, same VCR, etc) Quote:
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A better suggestion is the ES10/15 units, for this same purpose. Quote:
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Use 12V 1A or 15V 600mA, center-negative. While "amps don't matter" is usually true, that because the device will just pull amps needed. But if the device isn't well made, therefore a dumb device, and pulls unneeded amps. "Amps don't matter" is a common statement, but always contains a * from knowledgable users. All rules have exceptions! Too many volts blow a device. Too many amps can make it misbehave and act erratic. |
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Attachment 12135 Attachment 12136 Attachment 12137 Attachment 12128 Attachment 12129 Attachment 12130 Attachment 12131 Attachment 12132 Attachment 12133 I am curious about the "YUV<->RGB Range" setting? Options are "CGR" and "SMPTE". |
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When testing I record 2 minutes of video so that I can look at different scenes. However, as I'm recording uncompressed, this means a ~2.5 GB file size. I could try shorter clips (30 seconds?) and compressing them with FFV1 if that works? I have VirtualDub and VirtualDub2 installed and unfortunately neither can detect the AJA Kona card. Quote:
Therefore, I've decided to just leave it off from now on. Quote:
The tape I was testing was a commercial tape of the movie "The Net" with Sandra Bullock. I haven't noticed this in the home movie tapes I've been looking at since. Could it be some form of copy protection? Quote:
I'm using this universal power supply. It's the second more powerful one; 3–12 V @ 2250 mA. |
you can maybe get aja card to work with virtual dub if you install ffdshow i did write about it here
Post NR:12 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...trox-mx02.html but i think itīs best to use AJA Machina but virtual dub have more capture codecs :) |
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I took some snapshots from the test captures of the D96 tape. This tape is a recording of a TV broadcast made in 1996.
Attachment 12151 Everything off Attachment 12152 VCR TBC Attachment 12150 AVT-8710 external TBC only Attachment 12149 AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Attachment 12155 Everything off Attachment 12156 VCR TBC Attachment 12154 AVT-8710 external TBC only Attachment 12153 AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Attachment 12159 Everything off Attachment 12160 VCR TBC Attachment 12158 AVT-8710 external TBC only Attachment 12157 AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Attachment 12163 Everything off Attachment 12164 VCR TBC Attachment 12162 AVT-8710 external TBC only Attachment 12161 AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Attachment 12167 Everything off Attachment 12168 VCR TBC Attachment 12166 AVT-8710 external TBC only Attachment 12165 AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Attachment 12171 Everything off Attachment 12172 VCR TBC Attachment 12170 AVT-8710 external TBC only Attachment 12169 AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Here's a zip file for convenience's sake: Attachment 12173 |
First and foremost you don't seem to have video stabilization problems so take the AVT out it is not helping in this case and sometimes making things worse, Is there a user manual for the Machina? Your screen shots don't show all the drop down options.
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https://www.aja.com/pdf/KONA_PC_Manual_5.0.pdf Go to "Chapter 4: Using AJA’s Machina Application". It can be found on page 51 of the PDF (page 41 in document). I've also prepared a file with some five second clips. It contains: D96 - Skurt - everything off.avi D96 - Skurt - VCR TBC.avi D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi D96 - Skurt.zip https://easyupload.io/8jcqhw -- merged -- I thought it might be interesting to see the difference between a capture using the Canopus ADVC-300 device and the AJA Kona LSe card. Attachment 12176 Attachment 12177 |
Which is which? The first image is very clearly blurred, chroma smeared, and deinterlaced.
Captured how? If that was the Canopus, even DV shouldn't look that bad. Something is wrong somewhere. As per site policy, if you want Site Staff help with sample clips, those must be attached here to forum posts. 99mb max file size, and that is more than enough for a few seconds. We don't need long clips for samples. Attach those 4 clips separately. I'm actually concerned how you joined those. You've added a variable. |
I would try SMPTE and also give "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2Vuy’" a try, I don't know how different from "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2vuy’" is but it doesn't hurt to try.
Also try capture to RGB and convert with vdub to yuv2, I have no clue how different from 2vuy or 2Vuy. |
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In order to make the clips I captured the tape using different ways (TBC, no TBC, etc). Then I imported it into VirtualDub and found a place where the scene changed so that I can have a defined starting point. Then I stepped using the arrow keys until I found the first clear frame, and used the buttons to select a range, direct stream copy, export as AVI. In the other clips I found the place where the scene changed, and then used "Select Range..." to type in the same number of frames as the first clip. Repeat several times to get several clips. |
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Here is the second clip (Without AVT) properly cropped to the original standard 704x576, de-interlaced and encoded to H-264, I believe the tape quality is bad, Unless you are willing to do some post restoration work, it is what it is:
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It wouldn't surprise me if tape quality was bad. It is a TV-broadcast recorded in 1996 after all. Still, it's part of my childhood and there's even a part where you can see me among the audience, so it's something I'd like to keep. I actually tried to write to the broadcaster and I asked if I could have a copy from their archive but they said no. :depressed: So, yeah. I'll have to try digitizing what I do have. I'll try to figure out post restoration once I've gotten all of the tapes into the computer. |
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The example picture shows a background character. Look at her hands and compare left and right picture. |
Interlaced video is not meant to be captured as stills, The video frame contains two fields with different time stamps and when they are blended together the time difference shows the changes in video between the two fields. You either have to de-interlace the video like I showed you in the sample I posted or leave it alone and the TV will handle the de-interlacing for you, Just keep in mind like computer video programs, there are TV's with different de-interlacing capabilities too so don't expect miracles.
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I know you guys mean well but there is no need to further focus on interlacing. I know what it is, why it exists, and how it works. I was born in the 80s and grew up with this stuff. :P
Anyway, what do you think is the best way to capture the D96 tape? What combination of hardware is best? TBC vs no TBC? I read that the AVT-8710 has too much gamma. Is it possible to correct this? What settings are recommended for the AVT? Etc. |
My recommendation is VCR TBC/DNR ON -> S-Video cable -> Aja card (with internal reference sync option i think it was free run) -> Lossless AVI, from here you can do whatever you want with the lossless files.
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Processing videos has many affects, and it will change from source tape to source tape. You must realize that this is consumer videotape, and is controlled chaos that spits out picture and sound. Wrangling that chaos can alter varying values, sometimes requiring multiple gear stacks and extra tweaking to gear/features like proc amps. Any TBC can have excess gamma, depending on source. Quote:
Are those Hannover bars in the source tape? Worst = Everything off Blows highlights, over contrasted, diminished-but-present Hannover bars, some weird interlacing. Next worse = AVT-8710 external TBC only Worse highlights, but stable interlace. 2nd best = VCR TBC Highlights not blown, but increased Hannover bar contrast. Best = AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC Highlights not blown, but darks lightened, some grain suppressed, no Hannover bars. Fix = use AVT-8710 proc amp, tune down brightness. |
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I've been playing around with the AVT-8710 settings. In one tape I paused the image on the VCR when it showed the title screen and adjusted brightness until the black background was actually black. I then found a close up of a human face and adjusted color and tint until it looked more natural. I don't know if I did it right, but I think it looks better than it used to at least. |
You don't want to crush blacks. VHS black was never true deep black, just charcoal colored.
Be careful with changing colors. If monitor not calibrated, you may just be making the video worse to match bad monitor colors. Your RTV966 may have issues, but it's much better than the other VCRs tested. Note that I like the model of RTV 966 VCR ... but it seems yours has possibly failing caps. I've seen similar strange color and noise issues with bad-cap AG1980 decks. After a TGrant fix, flawless performance. |
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I was wondering if it was the tape that was the problem or the Blaupunkt VCR? So I decided to try a test.
I prepared a file (PM5544 test card.avi) and put it on a USB memory stick. I put the USB stick into the LG DVD/VCR player and connected the LG to the Blaupunkt via SCART cable. The end result is two files. The first is just a passthrough from the LG, via the Blaupunkt, and captured by the Kona card. The second file is the Blaupunkt playing from tape it had previously recorded on. The tape itself is ancient, probably from around 2001, but I don't have anything newer. I hope this helps. |
You are complicating things too much, The purpose of an external TBC is to stabilize the image it has nothing to do with picture quality, It should fix problems like frame roll, frame bending or flagging, out of sync video/audio. As I already told you the Aja is working well on doing that so for this tape you can leave the AVT-8710 out.
It seems that the LG VCR from a "still" looks better but if it doesn't have line TBC it is no good. |
External TBCs are not "for" visual, but a byproduct of correction does hit the visuals. In this case, I think there's a distinct correction happening in regards to upper luma. So for that, I'd definitely leave it in. I'd wager a lot of other stray error in the tape will be corrected as well, we're just seeing a tiny sample clip.
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