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-   -   Capturing VHS with the AJA Kona LSe card? (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10792-capturing-vhs-aja.html)

Aerith 07-10-2020 04:30 PM

Capturing VHS with the AJA Kona LSe card?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Ok, so after a lot of adventure, including having the AJA Kona LHe card I bought disappear in shipping, four months later I finally have almost everything ready.

My setup looks like this:
  • Blaupunkt RTV 966 (Panasonic NV-HS 1000 clone) VCR (includes a internal TBC)
  • AVT-8710 external TBC
  • AJA Kona LSe capture card
  • Windows 10 v1903 64-bit running on a i7-3770 @ 3.4 GHZ (4 cores/8 threads) with 16 GB of RAM
Video is connected over S-Video cable. (I wonder if the VCR will output component through SCART?) I currently lack an audio cable, but intend to go to the store and buy a RCA-XLR cable tomorrow.

The capture software I have available is:
  • AJA Machina (came with the drivers)
  • Adobe Premiere Elements 8
  • Adobe Premiere Pro CS 5.5
My father might also have some more old software lying around somewhere.

I did a test capture today with Premiere Pro. It had three options:
  • AJA AVI Capture
  • AJA QuickTime Capture
  • AJA Sequence Capture
I selected "AJA AVI Capture" and recorded a number of two minute test clips. Worryingly, Premiere Pro seems to freeze for a long time when saving which makes me wonder what would happen if the recordings were more than an hour long?

Filename: Untitled Clip 01.avi
Contains: VT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC
Link: https://easyupload.io/1g58fq

Because of the size of the uncompressed AVI, I used FFMPEG to compress the others with FFV1 compression. I'll leave the above original for reference.

Filename: capture.zip
Contains: AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC, VCR TBC only, No TBC
Link: https://easyupload.io/x9l1pn

Attachment 12121

Is it just me or does the picture look better without the TBCs? Is this a setting problem? I'll have to test some more.

Anyway, I was wondering what the best way to capture VHS with the AJA Kona LSe card is? What software should I use? What settings? Thank you for your help!

hodgey 07-10-2020 05:29 PM

Going by the pictures, it looks like the Kona LSe has some TBC functionality, it seems to be correcting horizontal wiggle like the VCR TBC does, otherwise no-TBC one would look less straight. From images on google it has one of the chips from Analog Devices, many of which have that functionality. Whether it can fulfill the function of the AVT as well i don't know, hard to say without the video.

There is a bit more contrast on the no-tbc picture, so maybe you just need to adjust the contrast or brightness a bit on the AVT or capture device, taking care to avoid clipping. I haven't used these cards, so I don't know what tools there are for it. On the left example the no-tbc picture is not the same frame as the other one, either you picked out two different frames, or there is something causing the field order to be different.

Aerith 07-10-2020 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 70026)
Going by the pictures, it looks like the Kona LSe has some TBC functionality, it seems to be correcting horizontal wiggle like the VCR TBC does, otherwise no-TBC one would look less straight. From images on google it has one of the chips from Analog Devices, many of which have that functionality. Whether it can fulfill the function of the AVT as well i don't know, hard to say without the video.

There is a bit more contrast on the no-tbc picture, so maybe you just need to adjust the contrast or brightness a bit on the AVT or capture device, taking care to avoid clipping. I haven't used these cards, so I don't know what tools there are for it. On the left example the no-tbc picture is not the same frame as the other one, either you picked out two different frames, or there is something causing the field order to be different.

I'll do some more testing tomorrow including with different tapes.

Regarding frames, I'm not sure which picture you are thinking of, but I tried to eyeball it as best I could in MPC and then just took a snapshot. I figured it would at least give people a quick overview in case they didn't feel like downloading gigabytes of video.

Edit: If you are talking about the horizontal lines thing, then that is present throughout the AVT-8710 TBC video clip, but not in the others. I don't know why.

hodgey 07-10-2020 06:30 PM

Looked at the clips now, it does look like the causes the fields to be out of phase for some reason compared to the clips without the AVT, that's odd. The JVC camcorder does that sometimes, but wasn't aware of a one of the oft-used TBCs causing it. It's something that can be fixed in post with an avisynth script, or with a bit more fumbling with ffmpeg (it may sometimes be needed anyway on TV recordings of stuff from film sources as they're sometimes not in phase.)

latreche34 07-10-2020 06:39 PM

Looks like the AVT TBC is blurring the picture and dimming it. leave it out unless needed. Another member here used the AVT with the BE75 and results were exactly like here, but taking out the AVT produced a sharp and more contrasted picture. Stacking TBC's is not always good especially when mixing consumer and pro TBC's.

Aerith 07-11-2020 02:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I noticed in the manual that the AJA Kona LSe has a 5 line adaptive comb filter. I understand that this is a good thing, though perhaps not as good as a 3D filter?

Anyway, I sent an e-mail to AJA support and asked them what capture software they would recommend and they said to use the Machina software that came with the drivers. As I was poking around in the settings I noticed a "Reference" setting with the options "Free Run", "External", and "Input".

Attachment 12123

I wonder if adjusting this setting would help with the fields?

latreche34 07-11-2020 07:13 AM

Comb filter works with composite input only, It is not needed for S-Video input. The reference I believe is the timing signal, Input defaults to the signal being captured, External is if you are connecting to an external reference signal to one of the connectors labeled external, Free run could be the TBC of the device. I'm not sure you'll have to read the manual.

Aerith 07-11-2020 07:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I was thinking about those horizontal lines and decided to try using VirtualDub to deinterlace.

Attachment 12124

Looks like an improvement to me. Though I'm not sure why it is necessary to do this in this case but not in the others?

Aerith 07-11-2020 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70040)
Comb filter works with composite input only, It is not needed for S-Video input. The reference I believe is the timing signal, Input defaults to the signal being captured, External is if you are connecting to an external reference signal to one of the connectors labeled external, Free run could be the TBC of the device. I'm not sure you'll have to read the manual.

The manual is focused on the Mac version so there seem to be differences. In any case, the manual says:

Genlock (Freerun, Ref In, Video In)—Selects how KONA LS will synchronize
program video:

Freerun: in this mode, KONA LS generates sync without an external reference
source

Ref In: directs KONA LS to use the Ref Video source for sync (usually an analog
black burst video signal)

Video In: directs KONA LS to use whichever video input source has been
selected in the Inputs tab window for sync

When I'm recording in AJA Machina, if I press the red record button too early I get a message "Error - No Video Input is detected". If I press it later though, I miss the first couple of seconds of video.

Can anything be done about this?

jjdd 07-11-2020 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70045)
When I'm recording in AJA Machina, if I press the red record button too early I get a message "Error - No Video Input is detected". If I press it later though, I miss the first couple of seconds of video.

Can anything be done about this?

Maybe you can trick it i mean example input a dvd signal to the VHS like if you are going to record the dvd signal to a vhs tape

if there was still analog signal channels then maybe the internal tuner in the VHS can work to

but im not sure if it will work to trick the capture card
i remember i have done something similar

About the Pal Film interlace thing here you can see how to fix it POST NR:35 then no need to deinterlace it looks like progresive but itīs interlaced video
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...quality-2.html

Pal VHS Film if you do in avisynth SeparateFields() you can see that the 2 fields are the same or look the same in time and if you see then interlace lines then you have to trim the start field so it get align but you see better in the link i did post how to fix that

itīs good to always test SeparateFields() on PAL vhs tape and see if itīs real interlace or fake interlace hehe or how do i say it :) but if the 2 fields look difference in time then itīs real interlace video :)

Aerith 07-11-2020 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjdd (Post 70046)
Maybe you can trick it i mean example input a dvd signal to the VHS like if you are going to record the dvd signal to a vhs tape

if there was still analog signal channels then maybe the internal tuner in the VHS can work to

but im not sure if it will work to trick the capture card
i remember i have done something similar

This worked! I connected a DVD/VCR combo via SCART and used it as a signal generator.

Quote:

About the Pal Film interlace thing here you can see how to fix it POST NR:35 then no need to deinterlace it looks like progresive but itīs interlaced video
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...quality-2.html

Pal VHS Film if you do in avisynth SeparateFields() you can see that the 2 fields are the same or look the same in time and if you see then interlace lines then you have to trim the start field so it get align but you see better in the link i did post how to fix that

itīs good to always test SeparateFields() on PAL vhs tape and see if itīs real interlace or fake interlace hehe or how do i say it :) but if the 2 fields look difference in time then itīs real interlace video :)
Unfortunately I've never used AviSynth before so my ability to follow is limited. I'll try having another look at it later.

jjdd 07-11-2020 12:26 PM

Good :)

here is a example how to trim the start field to align it
you have to edit AVISource("D:\VHS.avi")
and maybe change to AssumeBFF() but im sure itīs AssumeTFF()

Code:

AVISource("D:\VHS.avi")
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().Trim(1,0).Weave()

here is one more avisynth script that auto fix it if there is align problems in many places in the capture it did work for me

Code:

AVISource("D:\VHS.avi")
AssumeTFF().TFM(1,mode=0,pp=0,micmatching=0)

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/TIVTC/TFM

Aerith 07-11-2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjdd (Post 70050)
Good :)

here is a example how to trim the start field to align it
you have to edit AVISource("D:\VHS.avi")
and maybe change to AssumeBFF() but im sure itīs AssumeTFF()

Code:

AVISource("D:\VHS.avi")
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().Trim(1,0).Weave()

here is one more avisynth script that auto fix it if there is align problems in many places in the capture it did work for me

Code:

AVISource("D:\VHS.avi")
AssumeTFF().TFM(1,mode=0,pp=0,micmatching=0)

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/TIVTC/TFM

Thanks! I'll have to try it as soon as I figure out how to install AviSynth. :P

In other news, I've been testing with an old home video VHS tape from 1993. This particular tape had disappointing performance even when new and the years since haven't helped.
  • Quality with the Blaupunkt VCR and AJA Kona capture card is noticably better compared to a previous digitization made in 2010 with the Canopus AVDC-300 device.
  • With everything turned off (VCR-TBC off, VCR-AI off, no external TBC), the picture is jumping around all over the place in the first minute of the tape. Things stabilize afterwards, but issues like horizontal lines appear and disappear throughout the tape.
  • The TBC built-in to the VCR helped slightly in a previous tape, but in this one it actually reduced quality so I turned it off.
  • The AVT-8710 external TBC helped with the "picture jumping around" problem, though there were parts where even it struggled. I still don't like the way it handles colors and from testing a different tape earlier I know that there is some quality loss when using it. Still trying to find the best settings for it.

jjdd 07-11-2020 01:11 PM

thinking if Canopus AVDC-300 can work as passthrough to stabilize the signal to your aja capture card if you still have it

i see that Canopus AVDC-300 have input and output s-video

i use my Matrox MXO2 as passthrough to stabilize the signal to my Aja IO HD i connect them with SDI to SDI cable it was best quality i did try component cable and hdmi cable but it was not as good quality as sdi to sdi cable

i do have a DataVideo TBC-5000 but it degrades the signal little the Matrox MXO2 as passthrough i like this method more

best quality is of course VHS > Aja IO HD but it does not always work very unstable

Aerith 07-11-2020 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjdd (Post 70052)
thinking if Canopus AVDC-300 can work as passthrough to stabilize the signal to your aja capture card if you still have it

I still have it. Though I don't know if passthrough works on it.

Quote:

i see that Canopus AVDC-300 have input and output s-video


i use my Matrox MXO2 as passthrough to stabilize the signal to my Aja IO HD i connect them with SDI to SDI cable it was best quality i did try component cable and hdmi cable but it was not as good quality as sdi to sdi cable

i do have a DataVideo TBC-5000 but it degrades the signal little the Matrox MXO2 as passthrough i like this method more

best quality is of course VHS > Aja IO HD but it does not always work very unstable
I've tried connecting other units I have at home to act as a passthrough but it didn't work out. It seems when it comes to analog; the less things connected, the better.

I captured the tape once without the TBC and I'm currently capturing it a second time with the TBC so that I can compare. Another 30 minutes to go...

jjdd 07-11-2020 02:22 PM

Aerith ok :)

latreche34 07-11-2020 03:12 PM

You are using the wrong settings, you shouldn't have any problem capturing lossless with this card even without the AVT, get with Jwillis he has a similar setup on a mac he might be able to help you, meanwhile post all the screen options available we should be able to tel you what to select and what not to select.

lordsmurf 07-12-2020 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70025)
  • Blaupunkt RTV 966 (Panasonic NV-HS 1000 clone) VCR (includes a internal TBC)
  • AVT-8710 external TBC
  • AJA Kona LSe capture card
  • Windows 10 v1903 64-bit running on a i7-3770 @ 3.4 GHZ (4 cores/8 threads) with 16 GB of RAM
The capture software I have available is:
  • AJA Machina (came with the drivers)
  • Adobe Premiere Elements 8
  • Adobe Premiere Pro CS 5.5
Is it just me or does the picture look better without the TBCs? Is this a setting problem? I'll have to test some more.

Workflow conflicts can exists. Certain hardware can hate other hardware, sometimes software.

Premiere is NOT a capturing software, but an NLE with some pretty crappy capturing functionality built in. Great NLE, use it myself. Miserable capturing tool. Don't use that.

Although it has proved itself pretty buggy (therefore lousy) with many carsd, have you tried VirtualDub2 for capturing? It may work, as the capturing abilities have been expanded (though at the cost of somewhat messing up cards that had worked flawlessly in 1.9.x official),

Also please attach small clips to forum posts. There's no need for us to download 1gb+ longer files, and in fact some folks cannot (thus not be able to help).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 70026)
seems to be correcting horizontal wiggle
Whether it can fulfill the function of the AVT as well i don't know, hard to say

Unlikely. Line TBC corrects wiggle, frame TBC does something else entirely.

To test if a true line TBC is working, it also needs a harsher timing test, something very obvious. I've seen far too many instances where line TBC is claimed. Yet, whatever it was, was really weak and had very little effects. It would fail a harsher test.

BTW, if the Panasonic line TBC is on, any downstream correction would either be minute or non-existent. So the NV-HS1000 TBC would need to be off.

Quote:

There is a bit more contrast on the no-tbc picture, so maybe you just need to adjust the contrast or brightness a bit on the AVT or capture device, taking care to avoid clipping
To reiterate, workflow issues can exist. It's not unusual for a device to always work correctly, but another device causes image changes. So, for example, a contrast reduction with a TBC in the path may not actual be caused by the TBC, but rather the VCR or capture card. I've even seen an OS cause issues, as the OS-specific drivers interpreted something differently after signal augment by the hardware.

Never been too quick to place blame.

All we know is that the workflow as created is rejecting the TBC for whatever reason. Not that the TBC is bad. (Although a main difference here is that the TBC was already vetted to work well, in another workflow use case.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey (Post 70028)
Looked at the clips now, it does look like the causes the fields to be out of phase for some reason compared to the clips without the AVT, that's odd.

Odd, indeed. :hmm:

Has this been recreated with multiple sources tapes of wildly different origin? (ie, not made in same camera, same VCR, etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70029)
Stacking TBC's is not always good especially when mixing consumer and pro TBC's.

Workflow conflicts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70042)
Genlock

Turn off genlocks. That will cause issues in converting video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjdd (Post 70052)
thinking if Canopus AVDC-300 can work as passthrough to stabilize the signal to your aja capture card if you still have it

Canopus DV boxes have nothing by which to stabilize anything. The ADVC300 does appear to have a laughably weak line TBC, but it's even worse than ES20/25 type line TBC(ish). And it'll also throw out color in doing so.

A better suggestion is the ES10/15 units, for this same purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70057)
You are using the wrong settings, you shouldn't have any problem capturing lossless with this card even without the AVT, get with Jwillis he has a similar setup on a mac he might be able to help you, meanwhile post all the screen options available we should be able to tel you what to select and what not to select.

Reading more, the tapes are at fault. Trying to appease these tapes has led to adding hardware, which has seemingly added a new layer: hardware conflicts. Add in the newness of using this gear (some user error), and it's clearly frustrating. I've been here, in years/decades past. It just takes patience and testing to isolate everything, and finally get the quality capture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70025)
AVT-8710 external TBC

BTW, what power supply are you using that that AVT-8710? The power boards aren't made that well, and there may be a chance that allowing it to pull too many amps per volt could result in weirdness happening.

Use 12V 1A or 15V 600mA, center-negative.

While "amps don't matter" is usually true, that because the device will just pull amps needed. But if the device isn't well made, therefore a dumb device, and pulls unneeded amps. "Amps don't matter" is a common statement, but always contains a * from knowledgable users. All rules have exceptions!

Too many volts blow a device.
Too many amps can make it misbehave and act erratic.

Aerith 07-12-2020 04:32 AM

10 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70057)
you are using the wrong settings, you shouldn't have any problem capturing lossless with this card even without the avt, get with jwillis he has a similar setup on a mac he might be able to help you, meanwhile post all the screen options available we should be able to tel you what to select and what not to select.

Attachment 12134
Attachment 12135
Attachment 12136
Attachment 12137
Attachment 12128
Attachment 12129
Attachment 12130
Attachment 12131
Attachment 12132
Attachment 12133

I am curious about the "YUV<->RGB Range" setting? Options are "CGR" and "SMPTE".

Aerith 07-12-2020 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 70062)
Workflow conflicts can exists. Certain hardware can hate other hardware, sometimes software.

Premiere is NOT a capturing software, but an NLE with some pretty crappy capturing functionality built in. Great NLE, use it myself. Miserable capturing tool. Don't use that.

Although it has proved itself pretty buggy (therefore lousy) with many carsd, have you tried VirtualDub2 for capturing? It may work, as the capturing abilities have been expanded (though at the cost of somewhat messing up cards that had worked flawlessly in 1.9.x official),

Also please attach small clips to forum posts. There's no need for us to download 1gb+ longer files, and in fact some folks cannot (thus not be able to help).

I'm using AJA Machina (came with the drivers) right now as this is what AJA support recommended.

When testing I record 2 minutes of video so that I can look at different scenes. However, as I'm recording uncompressed, this means a ~2.5 GB file size. I could try shorter clips (30 seconds?) and compressing them with FFV1 if that works?

I have VirtualDub and VirtualDub2 installed and unfortunately neither can detect the AJA Kona card.

Quote:

Unlikely. Line TBC corrects wiggle, frame TBC does something else entirely.

To test if a true line TBC is working, it also needs a harsher timing test, something very obvious. I've seen far too many instances where line TBC is claimed. Yet, whatever it was, was really weak and had very little effects. It would fail a harsher test.

BTW, if the Panasonic line TBC is on, any downstream correction would either be minute or non-existent. So the NV-HS1000 TBC would need to be off.
Testing different tapes revealed that the Blaupunkt/Panasonic VCR's built-in TBC improvement is either so slight as to be nearly insignificant, or in one case where it actually reduced video quality.

Therefore, I've decided to just leave it off from now on.

Quote:

To reiterate, workflow issues can exist. It's not unusual for a device to always work correctly, but another device causes image changes. So, for example, a contrast reduction with a TBC in the path may not actual be caused by the TBC, but rather the VCR or capture card. I've even seen an OS cause issues, as the OS-specific drivers interpreted something differently after signal augment by the hardware.

Never been too quick to place blame.

All we know is that the workflow as created is rejecting the TBC for whatever reason. Not that the TBC is bad. (Although a main difference here is that the TBC was already vetted to work well, in another workflow use case.)


Odd, indeed. :hmm:

Has this been recreated with multiple sources tapes of wildly different origin? (ie, not made in same camera, same VCR, etc)
I start testing with commercial tapes just in case the VCR is faulty and decides to chew on them. Better something disposable than something irreplaceable. Once I have some familiarity with the new hardware I switch to the home video tapes I want to digitize.

The tape I was testing was a commercial tape of the movie "The Net" with Sandra Bullock. I haven't noticed this in the home movie tapes I've been looking at since. Could it be some form of copy protection?

Quote:

Workflow conflicts.


Turn off genlocks. That will cause issues in converting video.
Quote:


I've tested recording clips with all three settings and haven't noticed a difference. I don't know if it even does anything. I've set it to "Free Run" as this was the default setting.

Canopus DV boxes have nothing by which to stabilize anything. The ADVC300 does appear to have a laughably weak line TBC, but it's even worse than ES20/25 type line TBC(ish). And it'll also throw out color in doing so.

A better suggestion is the ES10/15 units, for this same purpose.


Reading more, the tapes are at fault. Trying to appease these tapes has led to adding hardware, which has seemingly added a new layer: hardware conflicts. Add in the newness of using this gear (some user error), and it's clearly frustrating. I've been here, in years/decades past. It just takes patience and testing to isolate everything, and finally get the quality capture.


BTW, what power supply are you using that that AVT-8710? The power boards aren't made that well, and there may be a chance that allowing it to pull too many amps per volt could result in weirdness happening.

Use 12V 1A or 15V 600mA, center-negative.

While "amps don't matter" is usually true, that because the device will just pull amps needed. But if the device isn't well made, therefore a dumb device, and pulls unneeded amps. "Amps don't matter" is a common statement, but always contains a * from knowledgable users. All rules have exceptions!

Too many volts blow a device.
Too many amps can make it misbehave and act erratic.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/error.gif

I'm using this universal power supply. It's the second more powerful one; 3–12 V @ 2250 mA.

jjdd 07-12-2020 05:08 AM

you can maybe get aja card to work with virtual dub if you install ffdshow i did write about it here

Post NR:12 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...trox-mx02.html

but i think itīs best to use AJA Machina
but virtual dub have more capture codecs :)

Aerith 07-12-2020 09:49 AM

25 Attachment(s)
I took some snapshots from the test captures of the D96 tape. This tape is a recording of a TV broadcast made in 1996.

Attachment 12151
Everything off
Attachment 12152
VCR TBC
Attachment 12150
AVT-8710 external TBC only
Attachment 12149
AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC


Attachment 12155
Everything off
Attachment 12156
VCR TBC
Attachment 12154
AVT-8710 external TBC only
Attachment 12153
AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC


Attachment 12159
Everything off
Attachment 12160
VCR TBC
Attachment 12158
AVT-8710 external TBC only
Attachment 12157
AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC



Attachment 12163
Everything off
Attachment 12164
VCR TBC
Attachment 12162
AVT-8710 external TBC only
Attachment 12161
AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC



Attachment 12167
Everything off
Attachment 12168
VCR TBC
Attachment 12166
AVT-8710 external TBC only
Attachment 12165
AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC



Attachment 12171
Everything off
Attachment 12172
VCR TBC
Attachment 12170
AVT-8710 external TBC only
Attachment 12169
AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC


Here's a zip file for convenience's sake: Attachment 12173

latreche34 07-12-2020 02:36 PM

First and foremost you don't seem to have video stabilization problems so take the AVT out it is not helping in this case and sometimes making things worse, Is there a user manual for the Machina? Your screen shots don't show all the drop down options.

Aerith 07-12-2020 03:06 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70091)
First and foremost you don't seem to have video stabilization problems so take the AVT out it is not helping in this case and sometimes making things worse, Is there a user manual for the Machina? Your screen shots don't show all the drop down options.

KONA for PC software - Installation and Operation Guide
https://www.aja.com/pdf/KONA_PC_Manual_5.0.pdf

Go to "Chapter 4: Using AJA’s Machina Application". It can be found on page 51 of the PDF (page 41 in document).

I've also prepared a file with some five second clips. It contains:

D96 - Skurt - everything off.avi
D96 - Skurt - VCR TBC.avi
D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC only.avi
D96 - Skurt - AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC.avi

D96 - Skurt.zip
https://easyupload.io/8jcqhw

-- merged --

I thought it might be interesting to see the difference between a capture using the Canopus ADVC-300 device and the AJA Kona LSe card.

Attachment 12176
Attachment 12177

lordsmurf 07-12-2020 04:16 PM

Which is which? The first image is very clearly blurred, chroma smeared, and deinterlaced.
Captured how?
If that was the Canopus, even DV shouldn't look that bad. Something is wrong somewhere.

As per site policy, if you want Site Staff help with sample clips, those must be attached here to forum posts. 99mb max file size, and that is more than enough for a few seconds. We don't need long clips for samples. Attach those 4 clips separately. I'm actually concerned how you joined those. You've added a variable.

latreche34 07-12-2020 05:43 PM

I would try SMPTE and also give "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2Vuy’" a try, I don't know how different from "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2vuy’" is but it doesn't hurt to try.
Also try capture to RGB and convert with vdub to yuv2, I have no clue how different from 2vuy or 2Vuy.

Aerith 07-12-2020 06:09 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 70101)
Which is which? The first image is very clearly blurred, chroma smeared, and deinterlaced.
Captured how?
If that was the Canopus, even DV shouldn't look that bad. Something is wrong somewhere.

The first one is from the Canopus ADVC-300. The second one is from the AJA Kona LSe card directly connected to the VCR (no TBC). The Canopus captures my father made back in 2010 are all similar. It's the reason why I'm trying to do this again.

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As per site policy, if you want Site Staff help with sample clips, those must be attached here to forum posts. 99mb max file size, and that is more than enough for a few seconds. We don't need long clips for samples.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that policy. The clips are ~95 MB each and only 5 seconds so that's hopefully enough.


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Attach those 4 clips separately.
Will do.

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I'm actually concerned how you joined those. You've added a variable.
"how you joined those"? I'm not sure what you mean.

In order to make the clips I captured the tape using different ways (TBC, no TBC, etc). Then I imported it into VirtualDub and found a place where the scene changed so that I can have a defined starting point. Then I stepped using the arrow keys until I found the first clear frame, and used the buttons to select a range, direct stream copy, export as AVI.

In the other clips I found the place where the scene changed, and then used "Select Range..." to type in the same number of frames as the first clip. Repeat several times to get several clips.

latreche34 07-12-2020 06:15 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is the second clip (Without AVT) properly cropped to the original standard 704x576, de-interlaced and encoded to H-264, I believe the tape quality is bad, Unless you are willing to do some post restoration work, it is what it is:

Aerith 07-12-2020 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70110)
I would try SMPTE and also give "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2Vuy’" a try, I don't know how different from "8-bit YUV 4:2:2 – ‘2vuy’" is but it doesn't hurt to try.
Also try capture to RGB and convert with vdub to yuv2, I have no clue how different from 2vuy or 2Vuy.

I've since found the manual for the AJA Machina software and it says:

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YUV<->RGB Range
This control mode should almost never be changed from its CGR default. This setting is only for highly-knowledgeable users that must define how color values will be mapped when doing the color space conversion—far less than 1% of all users should ever need to use it. Use this feature only for capturing YUV source into an RGB file, or to play an RGB file out to YUV. The CGR setting maps the typical YUV values to typical RGB values. For example, 8bit YUV 16 is mapped to 8 bit RGB 0, and YUV 235 to RGB 255. The ‘SMPTE’ setting for this control maps YUV into RGB using the exact YUV values. Therefore, 8 bit YUV 16 will map to RGB 16, and so forth. Only change this setting from its default if you are absolutely sure you know the benefits/consequences. This feature is not the same as a broadcast safe limiter.
I don't know the difference between these yuv-vuy things. I'll try to google it later. AJA support said to use 2vuy so that's what I've been doing until now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 70112)
Here is the second clip (Without AVT) properly cropped to the original standard 704x576, de-interlaced and encoded to H-264, I believe the tape quality is bad, Unless you are willing to do some post restoration work, it is what it is:

Interesting. De-interlacing seems to have gotten rid of those horizontal lines which is nice.

It wouldn't surprise me if tape quality was bad. It is a TV-broadcast recorded in 1996 after all. Still, it's part of my childhood and there's even a part where you can see me among the audience, so it's something I'd like to keep. I actually tried to write to the broadcaster and I asked if I could have a copy from their archive but they said no. :depressed:

So, yeah. I'll have to try digitizing what I do have.

I'll try to figure out post restoration once I've gotten all of the tapes into the computer.

lordsmurf 07-12-2020 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70115)
Interesting. De-interlacing seems to have gotten rid of those horizontal lines which is nice.

Are you confusing interlacing with noise/artifacts ("lines")? :question:

Aerith 07-12-2020 11:53 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 70121)
Are you confusing interlacing with noise/artifacts ("lines")? :question:

Attachment 12184

The example picture shows a background character. Look at her hands and compare left and right picture.

latreche34 07-13-2020 12:15 AM

Interlaced video is not meant to be captured as stills, The video frame contains two fields with different time stamps and when they are blended together the time difference shows the changes in video between the two fields. You either have to de-interlace the video like I showed you in the sample I posted or leave it alone and the TV will handle the de-interlacing for you, Just keep in mind like computer video programs, there are TV's with different de-interlacing capabilities too so don't expect miracles.

Aerith 07-13-2020 01:10 AM

I know you guys mean well but there is no need to further focus on interlacing. I know what it is, why it exists, and how it works. I was born in the 80s and grew up with this stuff. :P

Anyway, what do you think is the best way to capture the D96 tape? What combination of hardware is best? TBC vs no TBC? I read that the AVT-8710 has too much gamma. Is it possible to correct this? What settings are recommended for the AVT? Etc.

latreche34 07-13-2020 01:32 AM

My recommendation is VCR TBC/DNR ON -> S-Video cable -> Aja card (with internal reference sync option i think it was free run) -> Lossless AVI, from here you can do whatever you want with the lossless files.

lordsmurf 07-13-2020 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70128)
I read that the AVT-8710 has too much gamma.

Hogwash. Rubbish. Nonsense.

Processing videos has many affects, and it will change from source tape to source tape. You must realize that this is consumer videotape, and is controlled chaos that spits out picture and sound. Wrangling that chaos can alter varying values, sometimes requiring multiple gear stacks and extra tweaking to gear/features like proc amps.

Any TBC can have excess gamma, depending on source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerith (Post 70128)
What combination of hardware is best?

I don't like your VCR. I likely has bad caps.
Are those Hannover bars in the source tape?

Worst = Everything off
Blows highlights, over contrasted, diminished-but-present Hannover bars, some weird interlacing.

Next worse = AVT-8710 external TBC only
Worse highlights, but stable interlace.

2nd best = VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but increased Hannover bar contrast.

Best = AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but darks lightened, some grain suppressed, no Hannover bars.
Fix = use AVT-8710 proc amp, tune down brightness.

Aerith 07-13-2020 08:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf (Post 70130)
Hogwash. Rubbish. Nonsense.

Processing videos has many affects, and it will change from source tape to source tape. You must realize that this is consumer videotape, and is controlled chaos that spits out picture and sound. Wrangling that chaos can alter varying values, sometimes requiring multiple gear stacks and extra tweaking to gear/features like proc amps.

Any TBC can have excess gamma, depending on source.

Ok.

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I don't like your VCR. I likely has bad caps.
Fiddlesticks. :(

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Are those Hannover bars in the source tape?
I don\'t know. This was recorded from an over the air TV broadcast in 1996 so I guess anything is possible. I hauled out two other VCRs I had in storage and used each to capture two minutes of the beginning of the tape and then took some snapshots for comparison. I hope this helps.

Attachment 12185

Quote:

Worst = Everything off
Blows highlights, over contrasted, diminished-but-present Hannover bars, some weird interlacing.

Next worse = AVT-8710 external TBC only
Worse highlights, but stable interlace.

2nd best = VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but increased Hannover bar contrast.

Best = AVT-8710 external TBC + VCR TBC
Highlights not blown, but darks lightened, some grain suppressed, no Hannover bars.
Fix = use AVT-8710 proc amp, tune down brightness.
Thank you for your help. I don't have the experience to know what I should look for so it's hard to tell.

I've been playing around with the AVT-8710 settings. In one tape I paused the image on the VCR when it showed the title screen and adjusted brightness until the black background was actually black. I then found a close up of a human face and adjusted color and tint until it looked more natural.

I don't know if I did it right, but I think it looks better than it used to at least.

lordsmurf 07-13-2020 08:13 AM

You don't want to crush blacks. VHS black was never true deep black, just charcoal colored.

Be careful with changing colors. If monitor not calibrated, you may just be making the video worse to match bad monitor colors.

Your RTV966 may have issues, but it's much better than the other VCRs tested.

Note that I like the model of RTV 966 VCR ... but it seems yours has possibly failing caps. I've seen similar strange color and noise issues with bad-cap AG1980 decks. After a TGrant fix, flawless performance.

Aerith 07-13-2020 11:19 AM

3 Attachment(s)
I was wondering if it was the tape that was the problem or the Blaupunkt VCR? So I decided to try a test.

I prepared a file (PM5544 test card.avi) and put it on a USB memory stick. I put the USB stick into the LG DVD/VCR player and connected the LG to the Blaupunkt via SCART cable.

The end result is two files. The first is just a passthrough from the LG, via the Blaupunkt, and captured by the Kona card. The second file is the Blaupunkt playing from tape it had previously recorded on. The tape itself is ancient, probably from around 2001, but I don't have anything newer.

I hope this helps.

latreche34 07-13-2020 12:37 PM

You are complicating things too much, The purpose of an external TBC is to stabilize the image it has nothing to do with picture quality, It should fix problems like frame roll, frame bending or flagging, out of sync video/audio. As I already told you the Aja is working well on doing that so for this tape you can leave the AVT-8710 out.

It seems that the LG VCR from a "still" looks better but if it doesn't have line TBC it is no good.

lordsmurf 07-13-2020 01:58 PM

External TBCs are not "for" visual, but a byproduct of correction does hit the visuals. In this case, I think there's a distinct correction happening in regards to upper luma. So for that, I'd definitely leave it in. I'd wager a lot of other stray error in the tape will be corrected as well, we're just seeing a tiny sample clip.


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