Quantcast Panasonic DMR-ES15 for capture? - digitalFAQ Forum
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08-11-2020, 03:54 AM
TotalSmart TotalSmart is offline
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Hi All,

I know the ES15 is recommended as a pass through device for its TBC like features, but what about using it for the capture itself?

My results seems pretty good and then that leaves me with an mpeg2 digital source. I have been tasked with converting a large amount of VHS-C home movies. I had originally used this setup as a passthrough to an ATI all in wonder, but found the setup unreliable and would often crash.

Am I shooting myself in the foot with this approach?
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08-11-2020, 04:14 AM
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Q: For the capture itself?
A: No.

The captures are noisy, full of artifacts. Panasonic always made terrible records. The passthrough was a fluke feature of the ES10 and ES15, and that was it.

Most recorders are crappy for VHS capture, and the Panasonic is among the worst.

Shooting self in the foot, head, face ... you WILL regret doing this. DVD in general is frowned on these days, but that exact unit was frowned on during the heyday of DVD making,

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  #3  
08-11-2020, 04:27 AM
TotalSmart TotalSmart is offline
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Thanks for that reply, that is good to know. I know most of the recommendations reply on a capture device that needs to run on an old xp machine. Are there any recommendations for something I could run on a more modern machine? This would significantly increase my chances of finishing this project of mine
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08-11-2020, 04:45 AM
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What OS? Win7?

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08-11-2020, 04:47 AM
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Windows 10 ideally. Although if its a USB device I can pass it through to a virtual machine, at which point it could be any OS I suppose.
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08-11-2020, 05:25 AM
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Capture cards do not work in VMs.

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08-11-2020, 06:06 AM
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Ah, in which case I will stick to physical. Any recommendations for Win10 or is this a no go? Thanks
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08-11-2020, 07:17 AM
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Yes, there are some good Win10 options.

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08-11-2020, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TotalSmart View Post
Windows 10 ideally. Although if its a USB device I can pass it through to a virtual machine, at which point it could be any OS I suppose.
I capture to a Laptop running Windows 10 with a Hauppauge USB Live and AmarecTV and never had any problem.
You need to disable WiFi, Antivirus, etc. and stop all unnecessary background processes.
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08-11-2020, 08:54 AM
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Thanks, I came across the hauppauge searching the forum so I think I will give that a go as I can buy it new.
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08-11-2020, 11:40 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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(my opinon)

Hauppauge is kind of low-end Win10

AverMedia C029 USB is higher-end and about the most current you can get good drivers

Both still import from Asia, Hauppauge from China, AverMedia from Taiwan

Hauppauge makes a good pass translating and documenting their products.. but sometimes the hardware or drivers lag in performance or stability. They are based in the US however and their website is somewhat easy to navigate. Just keep in mind I would say they are less desirable than AverMedia products.

AverMedia is completely based out of Taiwan, and makes a premium product, but also charges a premium price.. for good hardware. The translation and documentation however has always been less satisfactory. But they do also offer Software Development Kits for several products if you need that sort of thing.

Today, if you must buy brand new Hauppauge or AverMedia are the only real choices for SD resolution video.

Blackmagic, Magewell, Epiphan have all moved on to SDI and HD or higher resolution video and never really played in the SD space well.. they are also much more expensive and their legacy SD stuff is not well documented or supported. Its just a market they were never in very long or interested in today. Mostly I think they considered it "Security Camera" type stuff. They are also very expensive.. even used.. this is one time where expensive does not get you a better product.

The best products for SD capture are the old ATI AGP cards, like the 9600 with the special connectors. The less risky cards are the 9000 or 9800 which do not require the special connectors, but those are quite rare and appropriately priced even on some auction sites. But you do have to run XP to use them.

ATI did make some 9600 PCIe cards, and some Theater 200 cards.. but in my opinion only the ATI 600 pro or one of the ultra rare PCIe 9600 cards is worth the time.

Turning to USB2.0 there are some good choices, for XP and Windows 7

But for W10, really only the ATI600, and only with early W10, like 2015 thru 2018

Today W10, USB the Hauppauge LiveUSB2 is (okay).. but I prefer the C029 Ezmaker.. but expect a price point above that for the USBLive2.. as much as double the price

W10 is in a downwards spiral, due to the walled garden effect, Hauppauge and AverMedia are continuing to chase it.. but maintaining all the certs and approvals from Microsoft is becoming increasingly difficult.

It won't be long before you simply won't be able to use a PC to capture video.. it will be legacy gear and legacy OS.. or nothing.

PS: Diamond makes the VC500, different models for the Mac and PC, but stability is scatter shot depending on which model you actually get inside very similar looking external plastic cases.. they can be (okay) or maddeningly frustrating. Basically however they are a dirt cheap Dash Cam or Security Cam quality capture dongle.

If you just want simplicity.. I'd stick with the C029 from AverMedia.. but (do not) use the driver disk that comes with it, except for the capture software.. if you use that.. most would probably use VirtualDub 1.9.11

AverMedia constantly updates their device drivers for Windows 10, and it shows.

Windows 10 changes every single year, just about everything kernel, architectures, services.. its a whole different operating system every year, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and so on.

If your keeping Windows 10 up to date it uninstalls and installs the next Generation of Windows 10 pretty much in the Spring of each year whether you want it or not.. or are aware of it or not.. so you need the device drivers (for that year). Odds are the driver disk that comes in the box are for the previous Windows 10 (year) and may install, or fail to install.. but won't work. You need the device drivers for your Windows 10 (year).

Simply double check your Windows 10 (year) from the Properties page for your Computer and then go to the AverMedia site and download the Windows 10 (year) version device drivers.. and all will be good, slick custom installer and everything just works.

Not many hardware makers adapted to the the Windows 10 marketing (disinformation) and ignored it and simply released drivers per (the new) Windows 10 update model. Its breath taking for hardware to (just work) with Windows 10.

Only caveat is be aware when Microsoft overwrites your current version of Windows 10.. and update the device drivers accordingly. There might be an "outage" after the new Overwrite when AverMedia hasn't released updated drivers.

If your task is critical.. run a version of Windows Microsoft truly no longer supports (like XP or W7).. then it won't update and stop working.

ALSO: All is not (perfect) with AverMedia, the broken English translations.. and less understandable user guides.. can be frustrating. The AverMedia website (even the English version) can be very frustrating. Generally however, within VirtualDub, everything works.. my experience with Asian products is they are aware people use VirtualDub, VLC and OBS.. and test their products with them rigorously.. some advertise they are VirtualDub, VLC and OBS compatible.

If your more inclined to have a native speaking and intuitive website site experience.. stick with Hauppauge.. to some degree they will hold your hand, and you can get some questions answered. (But) they also rely on Asia for driver updates, so pretty much any fixes (if any) will take longer than they might from Avermedia.. who might spontaneous release fixed updated drivers faster.

TO BE CLEAR: I would not recommend using Windows 10 for video capture.. its far too unstable and untrustworthy.. its maddeningly difficult with all its constant personal information transfers back to Microsoft corporate.. unplugging it from the internet won't stop it chattering. I run Windows 7 or 8.1 for most things, but 8.1 mostly because its still under some level of support until 2023. I run Windows 7 and XP for video capture.. for obvious reasons (no more Microsoft interference and better device driver support, wider capture hardware choices at cheaper prices).

Last edited by jwillis84; 08-11-2020 at 12:24 PM.
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  #12  
08-11-2020, 01:32 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I admire Taiwanese products, They are reliable based on my personal experience, I've owned satellite receivers, computer components, electronic devices such as media players, They are nowhere near the Japanese products quality but always better than the Chinese crap.
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08-11-2020, 02:01 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Japanese quality is still unmatched (in my opinion) but choices around the world are few and far between.

NEC (before Renasas) made the most innovative and flexible at their own fabs. Toshiba and JVC sourced or partnered with them direct in early days. But all good things come to an end.. or get out sourced.

The last "miracle" cards I've found that actually used the descendants of the chips in the original Toshiba RD-XS line of DVD recorders are no longer made. There is a long and interesting tale to tell about them .. but (in my opinion) were the best ever made.. second or in parallel to the ATI Theater 200 chips.. but they are no longer made.

NEC/Toshiba even thought to build in Uncompressed modes into the same cards after they included hardware MPEG2 compression.. but its a mere historical footnote now.

Japan went HD before the US and they made good business decisions to outsource and move on long ago.

Old Japan SD capture stuff is very good.. but super rare .. and it focused on the wider video dynamic range without the Pedestal setup that North America had.

Dell computer imported some of their capture cards.. but again.. no longer made.. and hard to get.

AverMedia made one (specific) capture card, with NEC chips.. the last.. and absolute pinnacle.. before I Believe NEC stopped producing them.. it works flawlessly under Windows 7 x64 with VirtualDub.. but was undercut by the coming of the cheaper Empia capture dongles.. and didn't really sell well I think... so many curious stories.. and rare gems along the rode to the present.

AverMedia hasn't really changed its ways.. they continue to engineer good products.. but they don't seem to improve upon their user manual or documentation translations. I guess they keep translations "in-house".

Hauppauge still does a good business importing stuff and performing good translations and openly states when they have a supply chain issue with China, they are a very transparent company. But the product quality just doesn't compare well to AverMedia.

Both companies have had to adapt to whatever chips are available on the open market, much as Corel/Pinnacle/Avid. Today its not all about the chips.. there isn't a lot of innovation in that space now.. ATI and NEC did the last 12 bit decoders and they're gone now. Everything is pretty much 10 bit or lower. TI or Afa decoders are pretty common but the Connexant and Empia single chip solutions are gaining ground.. everything is simplifying down to single chip USB video capture.. and that's pretty much what Hauppauge and AverMedia are selling.

A few PCIe (and even PCI) tv tuner cards are around.. but expensive for the extra parts you won't use for pure video capture.

Last edited by jwillis84; 08-11-2020 at 02:22 PM.
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08-11-2020, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
(my opinon)
W10 is in a downwards spiral, due to the walled garden effect, Hauppauge and AverMedia are continuing to chase it.. but maintaining all the certs and approvals from Microsoft is becoming increasingly difficult.
I never did an update of the USB Live2 drivers (6.0.119.34217) since 3 years when I first installed them; and there have been many Windows 10 update since that time.

Do you have image comparisons between captures from Hauppauge USB Live2 and Avermedia C029 like the test in
USB capture devices, Pinnacle vs. Hauppauge tests? or in https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...Raw-Comparison to support your judgement? I am definetevely interested in upgrading to a better product.

On my side I used the DVB-S and DVB-T receivers from Hauppauge (German Company) since 2001, and now for Analog Capture with a lot of satisfaction. That famous Hauppauge WinTV DVB-S was a jewel here in Europe :-)
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08-11-2020, 04:34 PM
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Taiwan and South Korea makes lots and lots of good tech, in addition to Japan. Even China can makes some decent stuff, but it is very model/time-specific, not even company specific. Due to the Chinese economy rising, quite a few things are made elsewhere now, be it Vietnam or Thailand or wherever, and a lot of that stuff is crappier than Chinese-made goods (mostly non-electronics).

Anyway, enough side commentary...

I'm not overly fond of the Hauppauge Live2/610 cards. There are documented issues with audio quality, noise leaking, and dark image luma values (similar to VC500). Conexant chipsets have never been great, some downright lousy. Hauppauge really diverged from capture in the late 2000s, and went all-in for the TV PVR USB crowd that quickly disappeared in about 5 years (and that was 5-10 years ago). Hauppauge really has not done much since that time, milking older USB PVR-ish/capture-ish (ie, perfect at neither) hardware. For the price, new, the Live2/610 is okay, but there are better cards. Aside from pro/HD cards (wasted funds), you do still get what you pay for.

Win10 is a problem OS. Win10 of today isn't the same as Win10 of yesterday or tomorrow. What works now may fail with the next update rollout. Some cards are proving more resilient to this (ATI "clones", including Hauppauge with WinTV8 drivers), some are getting beat-up at each update (ATI 600 USB). Hauppauge updating WinTV8 is nice, but we all know at some point they'll cease the updates.

Avermedia isn't much better than Conexant. Variable, some good, mostly bad. Cards, chipsets.

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08-11-2020, 06:01 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
I never did an update of the USB Live2 drivers (6.0.119.34217) since 3 years when I first installed them; and there have been many Windows 10 update since that time.

Do you have image comparisons between captures from Hauppauge USB Live2 and Avermedia C029 like the test in
USB capture devices, Pinnacle vs. Hauppauge tests? or in https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...Raw-Comparison to support your judgement? I am definetevely interested in upgrading to a better product.

On my side I used the DVB-S and DVB-T receivers from Hauppauge (German Company) since 2001, and now for Analog Capture with a lot of satisfaction. That famous Hauppauge WinTV DVB-S was a jewel here in Europe :-)

No I don't have capture samples on hand to prove my opinion.

Mostly its based on the requirements (New)(Windows 10 support out of the box).

MAJOR Editorial correction: I was speaking of the C039 not the C029

Last edited by jwillis84; 08-11-2020 at 06:34 PM.
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08-11-2020, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
The last "miracle" cards I've found that actually used the descendants of the chips in the original Toshiba RD-XS line of DVD recorders are no longer made. There is a long and interesting tale to tell about them .. but (in my opinion) were the best ever made.. second or in parallel to the ATI Theater 200 chips.. but they are no longer made.
They were used in newer Pioneer and Sony DVRs as well, I haven't tried the capture card, but the video quality from the HDMI out on the Sony DVR I got that uses NEC's video and system chips is excellent. I've also been curious about the cards using these chips. It's too bad neither these nor Panasonics (with their TBC-capabilities) video decoder chips showed up in many capture devices.

Quote:
ATI and NEC did the last 12 bit decoders and they're gone now. Everything is pretty much 10 bit or lower. .
Analog devices still make a few. I'm not sure if there is a lot to gain from a 12-bit ADC on a composite or Y/C signal, it may make more impact on component or RGB signals as they can carry a lot more detail.

The Avermedia C039 and Hauppage Live2 would probably not look massively different, I think they're both based on similar conexant chips, though the former may have better drivers as you mention.
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