Quantcast Pinnacle Moviebox Plus 510 USB capture card? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
10-07-2020, 09:20 PM
Glitchy Windows 3.1 Glitchy Windows 3.1 is offline
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Hello,
About a few days ago I had my eye on getting a ATI WonderCard 600 USB as I heard some positive feedback from people who are more knowledgable than I am with capturing technologies. I was also told by someone who owns an ATI WonderCard 600 USB said he bought it from lordsmurf and has capturecards for sale. So I went and private message him and gave told him i was using a

- Windows 10 version 1903 64 bit
- want to be able to record tracking issues like this ( https://youtu.be/-VesufqEXZQ )

He then said,
Quote:
In general, for Win10, I suggest certain Pinnacle USB cards instead.
To which I replied along the lines of, "which specific pinnacle capture is it?"
To which he responded,

Quote:
Lots of companies recycle model numbers, Pinnacle included. Yes, this is a 510-USB, but more importantly it contains certain chipsets, and has a specific performance when used/tested. You cannot buy any random 510-USB and expect the same outcome.
So I wanted to know if the Pinnacle 510 Capture Card is a good card as I already bought one (The Pinnacle MovieBox PLUS 510 USB Rev 2.0) new for like $70 (Orginal price was like $120-$150). As Lordsmurf said,

Quote:
Yes, this is a 510-USB, but more importantly it contains certain chipsets, and has a specific performance when used/tested.
So is it just a matter of testing the card for myself when it arrives? To see if it works for my needs

- recording stuff like this https://youtu.be/-VesufqEXZQ
- capture a few vhs tapes I have

-- merged --

Note: this isnt the exact one I bought but its the same version as the one I bought (which is in better condition that this). And is slightly different compared to the one that Lordsmurf has.


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File Type: jpg pinnaclemoviebox.jpg (88.4 KB, 28 downloads)
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  #2  
10-07-2020, 10:39 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Pinnacle made several devices and equivalent PCI cards, Some that I can remember are 500-USB, 510-USB, 700-USB and 710-USB, Some are built in MPEG-2 encoding chip, therefore you cannot capture lossless AVI with them, I use to be able to tell which is which but It's been years and I no longer remember, I know for sure the 500-USB is not built in a MPEG-2 chip because I own one. Just try and see for yourself.
I've read here that the Dazzle family of capture devices is no good but never tried one so I cannot comment on that.
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  #3  
10-08-2020, 12:27 PM
Glitchy Windows 3.1 Glitchy Windows 3.1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Some that I can remember are 500-USB, 510-USB, 700-USB and 710-USB, Some are built in MPEG-2 encoding chip, therefore you cannot capture lossless AVI with them, I use to be able to tell which is which but It's been years and I no longer remember, I know for sure the 500-USB is not built in a MPEG-2 chip because I own one.
Aw shoot I also want to know how to install its drivers on windows 10 since it seems it can only go to windows 7 and if i need to download anything additional programs to make pinnacle 510 USB to work with virtualdub.
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  #4  
10-08-2020, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchy Windows 3.1 View Post
Aw shoot I also want to know how to install its drivers on windows 10
Same instructions as 710: Pinnacle 710USB Windows 10 drivers?
But not same card.
And again, even "510" (or "710") may not be the exact card I suggest.

That's why I make cards available in the marketplace. There's too many unknowns, missing parts, missing drivers, etc. I try to make capturing easy for others, provide all parts, all drivers, etc. The main "magic ingredient" to a good capture experience is good hardware.

In terms of "do I have the right card", the card needs to be dismantled. The main screw is under the sticker. It's a PITA to pry apart, you may break a clip having never done it before. Another tell-tale is a certain levels performance with a certain tape that I have, which does you no good. If you have the same JVC VCR model as I do, then perhaps I could tell from a lossless recording of the bluescreen menu -- maybe.

This is why I don't say "hey everybody, go buy the 510/710 cards!"

I've also come across a lot of failed cards, the chips fizzled out, so don't leave it plugged in unless being used.

This cards were slow-released for about a decade, several production changes/variations exist over that long release life. Most were sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Circuit City, and others in that B&M genre. Not really online.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I've read here that the Dazzle family of capture devices is no good but never tried one so I cannot comment on that.
Basically Easycaps without the fake SAA7113 chip. Better performance than the Easycap, but that's not saying much. Minimally acceptable quality, usually. I've never used those much, outside of ES10/15 workflows, the uber-cheapskate setup (which he/she still whines is "expensive", at a whopping $250 range price all-in).

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  #5  
10-08-2020, 06:05 PM
Glitchy Windows 3.1 Glitchy Windows 3.1 is offline
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Hello,

I saw some instructions sent by lordsmurf on the thread I did regarding the pinnacle Moviebox PLUS 510 USB Capture Card.

Pinnacle Moviebox Plus 510 USB capture card?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Same instructions as 710: Pinnacle 710USB Windows 10 drivers?
But not same card.
And again, even "510" (or "710") may not be the exact card I suggest.

That's why I make cards available in the marketplace. There's too many unknowns, missing parts, missing drivers, etc. I try to make capturing easy for others, provide all parts, all drivers, etc. The main "magic ingredient" to a good capture experience is good hardware.

In terms of "do I have the right card", the card needs to be dismantled. The main screw is under the sticker. It's a PITA to pry apart, you may break a clip having never done it before. Another tell-tale is a certain levels performance with a certain tape that I have, which does you no good. If you have the same JVC VCR model as I do, then perhaps I could tell from a lossless recording of the bluescreen menu -- maybe.

This is why I don't say "hey everybody, go buy the 510/710 cards!"

I've also come across a lot of failed cards, the chips fizzled out, so don't leave it plugged in unless being used.

This cards were slow-released for about a decade, several production changes/variations exist over that long release life. Most were sold at Best Buy, CompUSA, Fry's, Circuit City, and others in that B&M genre. Not really online.


Basically Easycaps without the fake SAA7113 chip. Better performance than the Easycap, but that's not saying much. Minimally acceptable quality, usually. I've never used those much, outside of ES10/15 workflows, the uber-cheapskate setup (which he/she still whines is "expensive", at a whopping $250 range price all-in).
From what I can see I need to download the crossbar thing as well as the drivers for the card. However, it is the drivers for the pinnacle 510 for Windows 10 I am confused about. Now I found a post by you that had four links that you said are the drivers for the different windows versions.

VirtualDub not capturing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Drivers here:
XP = http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFi...CLEUSB2x32.exe
Vista/7/8/10 x86 = http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFi...CLEUSB2x32.exe
Vista/7/8/10 x64 = http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFi...iver_64bit.exe
- Main driver page: http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFi...readmeHW10.htm

Then see this post: How to enable s-video input on Pinnacle 510-USB?
Download Crossbar Thing from that thread.

Install drivers, reboot is required.
Start Crossbar Thing, set to s-video crossbar. Close.
Then open VirtualDub, capture mode.
Preview mode, not overlay.
Set to s-video if needed (if not already showing s-video), should look perfect.
Now i clicked on the links at they all send me to a pinnacle website to buy their video editing programs and not their drivers. However, on your post you have added an attachment for a driver, im guessing for the pinnacle cards like the 510 for windows 10. And I want to know if I download the driver from the attachment. Also here is the thread where you included the crossbar thing

Pinnacle Moviebox Plus 510 USB capture card?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm having this exact same issue myself right now. Let me know what you find.

UPDATE:

Download the attached mini-program Crossbar Thing, unzip to a portable software folder (C:\Portable is suggested). Run it after the Pinnacle card is connected, but before starting VirtualDub. This allows you to change from composite to s-video. Easy workaround.
Thank you,
Glitchy Windows
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  #6  
10-08-2020, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchy Windows 3.1 View Post
From what I can see I need to download the crossbar thing as well as the drivers for the card.
Yes.

Quote:
Now I found a post by you that had four links that you said are the drivers for the different windows versions.
VirtualDub not capturing?
Yes.

Quote:
Now i clicked on the links at they all send me to a pinnacle website to buy their video editing programs
I don't get that.

Quote:
on your post you have added an attachment for a driver
Yes.

Quote:
And I want to know if I download the driver from the attachment.
Sure. Same files (in 7z) as official links.

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  #7  
05-02-2021, 11:18 AM
capusotto capusotto is offline
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What about "Pinnacle Studio 500-PCI version 10"? Its junk too? I'm about to get that one but i'm not sure about the quality
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  #8  
05-02-2021, 05:06 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I have one and in lossless works the same way as any Pinnacle box from the same era, I posted pictures of the inside of it here, I wouldn't doubt it has the same chip as the 510, 700 and 710 boxes.
The nice thing about Pinnacle boxes that have firewire port is they can connect DV and D8 camcorders and decks to your computer via USB if your computer lack the firewire port, so you will be able to transfer the raw DV data and control your player functions such as play, stop, rewind ...etc all from the USB port. As the matter of the fact I'm keeping the 500-USB for just this purpose to use it with a Windows 10 machine, we all know that MS dropped support for firewire ages ago.
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  #9  
05-04-2021, 01:25 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Tidbit.

Windows 10, 8.1, 7, Vista and XP can be used with the Apple Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter $26 to add a Firewire port to a desktop or laptop with a thunderbolt port. USB-C is not necessarily a Thunderbolt port, even though Thunderbolt3 does use a USB-C style port.

HP has made desktops and laptops since 2013 that included Thunderbolt 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and now 4.0

A few other brands as well.

The Pinnacle DV port is designed only to support DV/AV devices, not mass storage or any other type of Firewire device. It works across the Marvin USB software driver bus which is only supported on 32 bit operating systems, no 64 bit version of Windows. They did not complete the work to upgrade the Marvin device driver to 64 bit before the split up and Corel sale.
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  #10  
05-04-2021, 08:31 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I've had it working on a 64bit machine, I transferred few D8 tapes using ScenelizerLive, Didn't have to install any driver though, maybe SL has some magic.
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  #11  
05-05-2021, 09:40 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Well that's hopeful.

I know how the software drivers work, but if there is some other magic going on I will try to verify.

Do you have the specific version of Scenelizer that seemed to make the DV port on a Pinnacle 500 USB work?

The Pinnacle 500 PCI is a PCI bus device and would not need the Marvin bus driver that the 500 USB version would need. Windows would automatically load the OHCI device driver instead.
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  #12  
05-05-2021, 03:30 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Probably I should have been more clear, I have the 500-USB not the PCI one, I miss read post #7. SL is the latest version on the author's website.
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  #13  
05-05-2021, 04:04 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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I stand corrected.

After your report, I tried on a desktop with Windows 7 64 bit and it did not work.

After your report, I tried on a laptop with Windows 7 64 bit and it did work (with a tad bit of stubbornness).

The main difference is the desktop already had an Adaptec IEEE 1394 adapter card.. which probably plays into the stubbornness.

The stubbornness is that I had to remove the Pinnacle USB-500 device driver from the Device Manager manually after it was installed, and then allow it to reinstall after unplugging and re-plugging the USB-500, there was a notable long delay after the USB-500 was registered before it continued to install an AVC Device + AV/C Tape Driver .. it looked like it tried to install a Phantom IEEE 1394, but that never showed up after it was installed. So some trickery is going on.

I was using an ADVC-55 to confirm this, but I've also plugged in other OHCI capture devices and they work, but not hard drives or non capture devices.

I would not have been as persistent if you hadn't made this report.

It takes (a long) time for the stack to install on Win7x64.. but it did. But it did not if I had a previous IEEE 1394 card installed.

I am guessing the "trickery" involved means there is some sort of hand off from the Phantom IEEE 1394 device driver to the Pinnacle AVC device driver and that eventually loads the AV/C Tape device driver. I mean that's a pretty safe assumption. The "Real" IEEE 1394 is somehow blocking that.

I don't think someone trying this would try it in this order, since if you have a real Firewire port.. why try using the Pinnacle in tandem?

A notable difference is capturing DV through this has perfect audio and video sync, and the capture software like VirtualDub 1.9.11 or AMPCap play the audio back.. where as only VirtualDub 1.9.11 supports audio capture and playback from the USB-500 itself.

I believe this is because of the weird behavior of the Pinnacle drivers since the Dazzle days of "shutting off" or disabling the audio feed as the device driver is unloaded. Only Pinnacle software seems to reach into the registry and turn it on when Pinnacle software is loaded.. VirtualDub also reaches into the registry and turns it on.. but not generic capture software, like OBS or AMCap or others. I have never understood why this is the only hardware video capture driver that cripples its use on shutdown.. if its nefarious.. or just accidental. -- but using the DV port obviously circumvents this.
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  #14  
05-05-2021, 08:23 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Success!

I kept after the Win 7 x64 desktop.

I learned the crucial driver is a [System] class driver called "Pinnacle Marvin Bus 64"

Reading the setupapi.dev.log in C:\Windows I kept seeing a problem with copy missing catalog files from

C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Pinnacle\Driver\Video\MarvinAVS

Which should have been put there by the Pinnacle Installer, but on this desktop the Installer always chokes and rolls back, it never completes installing the files.

So I manually extracted them from the installer and manually put them there.

Under Device Manager [System devices] with the USB-500 plugged in an [Unknown] device had shown up with no device driver associated with it, all attempts to Update the device driver to the [Pinnacle Marvin Bus 64] device driver started well but always refused to complete.. until I threw those file into that path. Then it seemed to install.

Then I unplugged the USB-500 and plugged it back in, and it installed.. paused for a beat.. and continued to detect the AVC and AV/C Tape Recorder /Player device under the [Imaging devices] in Device Manger, like it did on the latop.. even though I still have the separate Adaptec IEEE 1394 Firewire card installed.

I don't write device driver installers.. but this Pinnacle one is wicked.. it seems to pretend all systems are 32 bit and throws the 64 bit device driver files into the same directory it uses to store the 32 bit device drivers. Its messy and unstable. Why it worked on my laptop and not the desktop may have something to do with Win7x64 updates. My laptop is Win7x64 SP1 with "no" updates. While the desktop was updated all the way until Microsoft stopped releasing buggy broken updates for Windows 7.

I'm happy to have found a work around to get the 64 bit Marvin device driver installed.. but it was not an exact science.. I'd have to do it again a few times to be sure I knew precisely what to do to manually complete the 64 bit device driver installation. -- Its useful to know however, that it can be done.. and that it was not related to having an OHCI firewire board already installed in the system.
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  #15  
05-06-2021, 12:56 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I have a Win 7 64bit laptop with a factory iLink port and win 10 64bit all in one with no firewire and the 500-USB worked on both in DV mode including controlling the camcorder buttons, I don't know why it worked but it did, I might have installed Win 7 drivers long time ago before but not sure if that helped on win 10 machine. However in analog mode Vdub is buggy which I use for editing the footage only anyway.
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05-06-2021, 09:18 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Tested on USB-500, USB-700, USB-510 and USB-710 now, they all install and work 'After' the Pinnacle Marvin 64 device driver for System class is installed.

Since all of these are native 422 YUV 720x480 NTSC and 720x576 PAL capture devices, enabling the DV port to capture using an external DV codec on a laptop or desktop with only a USB 2.0 port is quite valuable. Its very versatile.

The Pinnacle x64 device driver Installer is thoroughly messed up.. it really doesn't work on later Win7, Win 8.1 or Windows 10 systems.. it partially unpacks "some device drivers" and rolls back and tries to delete some.. it doesn't do a good job and thats why it works at all.. it leaves droppings all over the place.

I'm a bad guesser, but it looks to me like they changed the setup API when starting the 64 bit versions, and it got much worse in Windows 10.

The device drivers are signed.. and should work under Windows 10.. but the path to getting them installed seems difficult.

I've seem this before where you have to use the OS the device driver installer was written for 'first' to get the installers device drivers in the right place, and then upgrade the OS to bring along the legacy installed device drivers since there isn't a current installer that will work on the current version of the OS.

In theory you could write a new INF file to fix the problems.. but then the INF file would be modified and not agree with the .CAT file and signature for the device driver package.. so the new Windows OS would refuse to install it because it would detect tampering and assume Malware.

Microsoft have decided to "Never" allow turning off tamper protection when installing device drivers.. even for Driver Developers.. they have a special test mode, but the requirements for temporarily enabling it are very high and now cost real money.. so the only viable path.. is install in an older version of windows and upgrade.. upgrade.. upgrade and hope nothing breaks.. its the definition of a House of Cards.
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