Quantcast Feedback requested for initial 8mm tape capture! - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
11-08-2020, 10:43 AM
theugster theugster is offline
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Howdy all!

I've finally finished putting together my capture gear for 20+ 8mm/Hi8 tapes recorded on several Sony camcorders over the years.

My current setup is as follows:

Sony EV-C100 Hi8 deck --> DataVideo TBC-1000 --> ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 --> VirtualDub capture to HuffYUV

S-Video interconnects are used throughout. Due to a potential Virtualdub issue I haven't dug into (can't adjust audio input levels on the ATI card?!) I'm capturing audio directly from the Sony EV-C100 to a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card.

I've attached three samples, all from the same scene.

What I'm looking for is just some general answers to the following:
  • Is this a decent 'master' capture to work forward from in terms of correction/cleanup?
  • Are the top few skewed lines salvagable or is that (and the bottom few lines) just in need of a good crop?
  • Are there any drawbacks to continuing to capture audio direct from the deck to a separate sound card?

Thanks so much in advance!


Attached Files
File Type: zip Tape_02_01_Sample_01.zip (68.98 MB, 12 downloads)
File Type: zip Tape_02_01_Sample_02.zip (64.81 MB, 10 downloads)
File Type: zip Tape_02_01_Sample_03.zip (33.99 MB, 6 downloads)
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  #2  
11-08-2020, 12:31 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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No, The top lines problem should not exist, It's either the player line TBC is turned off, it doesn't have line TBC or the external TBC is causing it, Post a sample without external TBC.
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  #3  
11-08-2020, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theugster View Post
Is this a decent 'master' capture to work forward from in terms of correction/cleanup?
No. That tearing must be dealt with. That VCR is likely causing it.

Quote:
Are the top few skewed lines salvagable
That's tearing. An ES10/15 is required.
But I don't think it's the tapes here. I think the VCR is causing it. I don't like that deck. A better Hi8 camera with line TBC will probably do better at playback.

Quote:
or is that (and the bottom few lines) just in need of a good crop?
Not ideal. You're losing a lot of picture.

Quote:
Are there any drawbacks to continuing to capture audio direct from the deck to a separate sound card?
Possible sync loss. But with the right settings, shouldn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
No, The top lines problem should not exist, It's either the player line TBC is turned off, it doesn't have line TBC or the external TBC is causing it, Post a sample without external TBC.
The TBC-1000 is not causing this. That's tearing. ES10/15 required to fix. VCR likely to blame.

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  #4  
11-08-2020, 04:00 PM
traal traal is offline
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The third clip shows another kind of tearing when the camera pans.

The first and second clips show some horizontal banding in the blue balloon. I thought the TBC-1000 should fix it but I guess not.

The brightness and contrast levels weren't set properly for a good capture.
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  #5  
11-08-2020, 05:32 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: The EV-C100 is a basic Hi8/8mm VCR and does not have a line TBC.
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  #6  
11-08-2020, 09:41 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
FWIW: The EV-C100 is a basic Hi8/8mm VCR and does not have a line TBC.
Bingo! That's the problem, A Hi8 or D8 camcorder with built in line TBC is a must.
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  #7  
11-08-2020, 10:16 PM
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But just to re-emphasize, the VCR may actually be causing the tearing. The tapes may not have tearing present, and would play better even on another EV-C100 unit (but don't do that). The better the playback gear, the better the capture experience.

As always, Hi8 cameras are suggested for Hi8 or Video8 conversion.

A suggested Hi8 camera is wiser choice the ES10/15 here. That's my point.

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  #8  
11-09-2020, 11:08 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Hmm, I'm seeing some high-frequency noise on the capture, it looks similar to something I get with the TBC-3000.
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  #9  
11-09-2020, 06:54 PM
theugster theugster is offline
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First off, thanks so much for the feedback everyone. I really appreciate it! As you've probably guessed by now, these tapes are pretty important to me and I really want to make sure I get this right!

Based on feedback:
  • I've removed the EV-C100 from the equation and am using a CCD-TRV318 for testing now.
  • I tuned the contrast down and the brightness up to try to avoid over/underexposing any particular areas.
  • I also turned the sharpness all the way down as it appeared to just be sharpening noise!
With these changes, I've re-captured the test clip and have re-uploaded the same three clips for comparison. I may be off by a frame or two.

As an aside, this tape played flawlessly in the EV-C100. However, when I played just the few minutes of it in my TRV318 and tried to eject, a length of tape had spooled itself around the pinch roller. A very unwelcome experience but one I feel that I'm going to get used to. I'll likely have to make another thread about this but I'm just curious, should tapes from the late 80s/early-90s experience a regular level of being 'eaten' or is there additionally something wrong with my camcorder?

Thanks again everyone!


Attached Files
File Type: zip Tape_02_01_Sample_01_REDO.zip (52.16 MB, 6 downloads)
File Type: zip Tape_02_01_Sample_02_REDO.zip (53.34 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: zip Tape_02_01_Sample_03_REDO.zip (28.40 MB, 3 downloads)
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  #10  
11-09-2020, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theugster View Post
As an aside, this tape played flawlessly in the EV-C100. However, when I played just the few minutes of it in my TRV318 and tried to eject, a length of tape had spooled itself around the pinch roller. A very unwelcome experience but one I feel that I'm going to get used to. I'll likely have to make another thread about this but I'm just curious, should tapes from the late 80s/early-90s experience a regular level of being 'eaten' or is there additionally something wrong with my camcorder?!
That should not happen. Yes, something is wrong with the camera.

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  #11  
11-10-2020, 06:46 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
...should tapes from the late 80s/early-90s experience a regular level of being 'eaten' or is there additionally something wrong with my camcorder?

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/newr...#ixzz6dOXaCHh9
Old tapes in old gear are at a higher risk due to the results of aging/wear, especially the deterioration of rubber and plastic parts. Part failures are more likely. Storage conditions can have a major effect when, especially if subject to cycles of temperature and humidity. And heat such as often happens in attic storage is really bad for plastic and rubber. (Also a bad tape may have a problem in a good machine. Separation from the leader at the end of the tape not uncommon.)

However, old or new gear should not routinely eat tapes. If it does eat an otherwise good tape it likely needs repair/maintenance If in doubt, or if trying an unproven machine always test it with an unimportant tape first.

Simple sharpness controls typically work by emphasizing "edges" (rapid changes in video levels in the scan line) and random video noise looks like edges so it will become more apparent when 'sharpness" is increased. Home video, especially video shot under lower light levels, tends to have a lot of noise in it.
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  #12  
11-11-2020, 09:42 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I had a similar issue with a CCD-TRV218 (from same lineup, but PAL model with a bit less camera stuff). I think it was mainly when using ffwd/rwd in my case though, don't remember if it happened on playback as well. What fixed it was tightening one of the tape guides a tad, I believe it was the one closest to the pinch roller but I'm not 100% sure, it's tiny so you need to be careful if adjusting it. (It was not one of the ones that move up next to the video head drum when playing and have to do with tape alignment over the head, don't mess with those.)

Also worth noting that the CCD-TRV318 only has mono output. Stereo was a later addition to the 8mm video format, it was mostly found on higher end hi8 camcorders and the Hi8 VCRs, so if you have tapes recorded on a stereo-capable device you won't get the full stereo sound (though the stereo separation wasn't always great.)
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  #13  
11-17-2020, 03:55 PM
theugster theugster is offline
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Thanks again for all the feedback, everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Old tapes in old gear are at a higher risk due to the results of aging/wear, especially the deterioration of rubber and plastic parts. Part failures are more likely. Storage conditions can have a major effect when, especially if subject to cycles of temperature and humidity. And heat such as often happens in attic storage is really bad for plastic and rubber. (Also a bad tape may have a problem in a good machine. Separation from the leader at the end of the tape not uncommon.)

However, old or new gear should not routinely eat tapes. If it does eat an otherwise good tape it likely needs repair/maintenance If in doubt, or if trying an unproven machine always test it with an unimportant tape first.
This is great advice. I'm not 100% sure how much abuse this camera had, though I do know it was only responsible for recording about a half-dozen tapes in its lifetime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I had a similar issue with a CCD-TRV218 (from same lineup, but PAL model with a bit less camera stuff). I think it was mainly when using ffwd/rwd in my case though, don't remember if it happened on playback as well. What fixed it was tightening one of the tape guides a tad, I believe it was the one closest to the pinch roller but I'm not 100% sure, it's tiny so you need to be careful if adjusting it. (It was not one of the ones that move up next to the video head drum when playing and have to do with tape alignment over the head, don't mess with those.)

Also worth noting that the CCD-TRV318 only has mono output. Stereo was a later addition to the 8mm video format, it was mostly found on higher end hi8 camcorders and the Hi8 VCRs, so if you have tapes recorded on a stereo-capable device you won't get the full stereo sound (though the stereo separation wasn't always great.)
Again, great points. Did not know my camcorder was mono (that explains why none of my dozen or so TRRS to RCA cables provided a second audio channel!)

I may try to make adjustments, but at this point I'm open to just buying a replacement deck for this job.

My last request here is a review of the second set of samples I uploaded. I want to make sure that the rest of my gear is working the way it should in terms of the TBC and capture card. I did adjust levels a bit to flatten everything down, and with the camcorder capture, the tearing at the top of the image is all but gone.

Again, thanks so much for the feedback and patience!
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  #14  
11-17-2020, 06:37 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW, 8mm/Hi8 audio was recorded as AFM HiFI (sort of) much bett4er than VHS linear track. It is comprised of a mono L+R signal, and if stereo a L-R signal that when added to the mono signal gave left and when subtracted gave right. All Video8 players can do the L+R track, but only stereo units will detect the L-R and give stereo output.

Stereo separation was driven by the microphone pattern and placement. In-camera stereo mics varied in quality and typically provided a restrained stereo image. but still could give an ambient presence/flavor to the sound.

The 8mm tape helical scan is crowded. It contains space for video and AFM audio, time/data code, and PCM audio (detected and used only by select high end gear).
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  #15  
11-22-2020, 11:55 AM
theugster theugster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traal View Post
The third clip shows another kind of tearing when the camera pans.

The first and second clips show some horizontal banding in the blue balloon. I thought the TBC-1000 should fix it but I guess not.

The brightness and contrast levels weren't set properly for a good capture.
Would you mind having a look at the new samples and let me know if the situation has improved in terms of the brightness/contrast? I'm thinking I need to grab a blank tape and do some sort of calibration on the Virtualdub side before continuing if my levels are still off... Thanks for the feedback!
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  #16  
11-22-2020, 10:09 PM
traal traal is offline
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The first two look great but the red channel is clipped on the right in the third one. However, I'm not certain whether that's a problem.
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