TBC and card setup that runs on Mac?

[Runrunsparrow]

Hello friends,

I've recently initiated the conversion of my basement sound studio into a digitalization service. This will hopefully become my main income over time, and I aim to do it right and professionally from the start. This far I've invested in two Pana 7500, a Digibeta is inbound, looking around for Hi8 players.

My plan has been to get a decent TCB that takes S-VIDEO, wire the component output through the Digibeta using it as a A/D-C and then take the SDI into a video card.

° Now, first the TBC. Yesterday I phoned one of the Grand Old Guys in this business in the small country I live in. He was kind and frank at the same time. "Unless you get yourself a Snell & Wilcox 24 HD, you're going to end up ripping yourself your hair of while trying to digitize VHS and Hi8". I appreciate his candidness, but I would like to check this statement with you cunning guys. I haven't found any S&W 24 modell with the extension "HD", however the 24D. https://www.bsbroadcast.com/snell-wi...s-tbs-24d.html Is this the TBC to-go-to in order to minimize (however not eliminating, I guess) sync and timing problems?

° Next issue, capture card. I would very much do this on Mac, since that's what I've been using since my father brought one home in 1987. Would this just be stupid, risking missing out a bunch of PC-only software. I would like the card to be able to save the video in both consumer formats like mp4/h264, but as importantly also professional formats like Apple Prores or some of the pro MPEG ones since I'll be aiming at both B2C and B2B.

°Also the 4444 or 4:4:2 issue. I believe all pro customers will ask for 4444 sampling for Beta SX/SP-digitalization. However, would the S&W 24 D's sampling and processing in "only" 4:2:2 before outputing the signal to the analogue outputs again make 4444 sampling meaningless?

°Finally, are there any decent TBC:s that can output SDI? I mean, while already having converted an analogue input for digital processing, why only offer the option of component output?

Thanks in advance for any input

[hodgey]

The AG7500 is SP only, so you may want some other VCRs for that. Also be aware that the TBC on those is an optional add-in, so they're not guaranteed to have it.

It looks like the S&W 24D model has SDI out judging by your link? I can't speak of how well they work though, but I think there may have been someone on these forums that have played around with them, same with SDI capture on MacOS.

4:2:2 is generally fine for VHS and other formats with a similar approach to color encoding like 8mm, U-matic and betamax (betacam is different). For VHS the color signal is crunched down between a 5th and 7th of the original analog broadcast SD bandwidth (depending on TV standard). Even hi-band u-matic crunched it down by more than a third. Given that the color resolution is so low 4:2:2, aka half horizontal resolution is not really an issue, 4:4:4 would be overkill. On analog betacam tapes the color resolution is much higher due to how the format works so there 4:4:4 may have a use.

[lordsmurf]

This isn't a setup that I'd attempt whatsoever.

Trying SDI, 4:4:4, etc -- you're trying to overdo quality. And ironically, you'll underdo quality as a result.

This is the ideal analog workflow = VCR/camera > TBC > capture card
Not just any devices, but specific models.

- AG7500 not a good unit.
- Snell & Willcox are surely fine tools, just not optimal for this task. It's broadcaster gear, consumer formats are not a broadcast format.
- Some folks like SDI for VHS (extreme minority, very few users), but it creates a closed-loop system (integrated capture+TBC) that can be a problem for consumer formats like VHS or Hi8. Again, "TBC > capture", meaning separate items.

Quote:

"Unless you get yourself a Snell & Wilcox 24 HD, you're going to end up ripping yourself your hair of while trying to digitize VHS and Hi8".

False.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runrunsparrow

Hello friends,

I've recently initiated the conversion of my basement sound studio into a digitalization service. This will hopefully become my main income over time, and I aim to do it right and professionally from the start. This far I've invested in two Pana 7500, a Digibeta is inbound, looking around for Hi8 players.

For a business you need a variation of Panasonic and JVC S-VHS with line TBC, Avoid Hi8 players, get Hi8 camcorders with line TBC and S-Video out.

Quote:

My plan has been to get a decent TCB that takes S-VIDEO, wire the component output through the Digibeta using it as a A/D-C and then take the SDI into a video card.

Now, first the TBC. Yesterday I phoned one of the Grand Old Guys in this business in the small country I live in. He was kind and frank at the same time. "Unless you get yourself a Snell & Wilcox 24 HD, you're going to end up ripping yourself your hair of while trying to digitize VHS and Hi8". I appreciate his candidness, but I would like to check this statement with you cunning guys. I haven't found any S&W 24 modell with the extension "HD", however the 24D. https://www.bsbroadcast.com/snell-wi...s-tbs-24d.html Is this the TBC to-go-to in order to minimize (however not eliminating, I guess) sync and timing problems?

You are approaching this the wrong way and your friend is right to a certain extent, First you don't need a digibeta deck for just digitizing unless you need to capture actual Betacam tapes, All what you need is a S-Video/Component to SDI digitizer to be used as a capture device not as an external TBC.

A lot of people used these devices for just TBC and they got terrible results because they are not designed to work that way, They are built in TBC+Frame synchronizer(stabilizer)+serializer(SDI), if used as an external TBC only by using the analog outputs (which by the way are designed for an external monitor only that doesn't need a stable signal not for capturing) you throw away the stabilization part of it, So get yourself a device or a PCIe card or even a full rack mount one and use it fully from the analog input to SDI output, it saves you a lot of wiring, external TBC's, capture cards...

Quote:

Next issue, capture card. I would very much do this on Mac, since that's what I've been using since my father brought one home in 1987. Would this just be stupid, risking missing out a bunch of PC-only software. I would like the card to be able to save the video in both consumer formats like mp4/h264, but as importantly also professional formats like Apple Prores or some of the pro MPEG ones since I'll be aiming at both B2C and B2B.

Don't even think about Mac when it comes to this stuff, PC Win 7, period.

Quote:

Also the 4444 or 4:4:2 issue. I believe all pro customers will ask for 4444 sampling for Beta SX/SP-digitalization. However, would the S&W 24 D's sampling and processing in "only" 4:2:2 before outputing the signal to the analogue outputs again make 4444 sampling meaningless?

Yes 4:4:4 sampling is meaningless for SD, and 4444 is even more meaningless.

Quote:

Finally, are there any decent TBC:s that can output SDI? I mean, while already having converted an analogue input for digital processing, why only offer the option of component output?

Yes check my above response and your friend's suggestion but for dizitizing not external TBC (that's why I said your friend is right to a certain extent).

And finally for SDI to computer, there are SDI-USB3 adapters which are expensive, but SDI PCIe cards are dirt cheap.

[Runrunsparrow]

Thank you all very much for your kind help and answers. I just bought a Premium subscription - totally worth the help I've been getting so far and for sure useful futurewhise.

OK, Windows it is. What about a DeckLink Duo 2 Mini? I would like to be able to run at least 2 captures simultaniously and this one does four.

Quote:

You are approaching this the wrong way and your friend is right to a certain extent, First you don't need a digibeta deck for just digitizing unless you need to capture actual Betacam tapes, All what you need is a S-Video/Component to SDI digitizer to be used as a capture device not as an external TBC.

A lot of people used these devices for just TBC and they got terrible results because they are not designed to work that way, They are built in TBC+Frame synchronizer(stabilizer)+serializer(SDI), if used as an external TBC only by using the analog outputs (which by the way are designed for an external monitor only that doesn't need a stable signal not for capturing) you throw away the stabilization part of it, So get yourself a device or a PCIe card or even a full rack mount one and use it fully from the analog input to SDI output, it saves you a lot of wiring, external TBC's, capture cards...

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...#ixzz6hpES4zRS

The reason I would be using a Digibeta for S-video to SDI-conversion is because I've got one. I've also got a Sony DV-player with build in TBC and s-video input. What about the TBC:s in these machines: are they line or frame based? But regarding your comment, it doesn't seem like a good idea anyway. So what do you suggest I throw in between the S-video output and the capture card SDI input?

Quote:

For a business you need a variation of Panasonic and JVC S-VHS with line TBC, Avoid Hi8 players, get Hi8 camcorders with line TBC and S-Video out.

It’s interesting to read that Hi8-camcorders would be superior to dedicated players. A good thing though since I can get working 5 second hand Hi8 camcorders for the price of one secon hand (pro) player. Looking around at competitor’s websites, many of them claim that not using dedicated players is amateurish and not serious.

About the Pana 7500 and 7510’s that I mentioned: they’re mostly eye candy in my studio to impress the clients. I’ve also got a JVC HR-S5800EH that plays my family’s old VHS tapes really well. Haven’t been able to find much about it online, like if it has any built in TBC and wether it’s a line or frame type?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runrunsparrow

I just bought a Premium subscription

Thanks.

Quote:

I would like to be able to run at least 2 captures simultaniously

Simultaneous capturing rarely works as well as you think.

Quote:

Sony DV-player with build in TBC and s-video input. What about the TBC:s in these machines: are they line or frame based?

Line, maybe field (multi line).
I'm not aware of any VCR (VTR,VCP) ever having a frame TBC.

Quote:

(pro) player. Looking around at competitor’s websites, many of them claim that not using dedicated players is amateurish and not serious.

This always amuses me. Most people think the term "Pro" in the name makes it professional, they're gullible to marketing. Inversely, some think lack of the term "Pro" means it's not. But professionals determine what gear is used professionally, not companies. Yes, they generally agree (the companies provide products that pros demand/want), but it's not always the case. Sometimes "amateur" stuff is better than the "pro" stuff. For example, photography has a lot of "pro" accessories that are bested by simple household items. The actual professionals are not idiots, and not wasting their money on that "pro" crap. And yet the "pro" item sells to the wanna-be professionals.

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About the Pana 7500 and 7510’s that I mentioned: they’re mostly eye candy in my studio to impress the clients.

Big and bulky, ie something that looks ancient, can also have the opposite effect.

Quote:

I’ve also got a JVC HR-S5800EH that plays my family’s old VHS tapes really well. Haven’t been able to find much about it online, like if it has any built in TBC and wether it’s a line or frame type?

It does not. It'd be obvious (in the menu, in the manual) if it did.

[latreche34]

To expend on what LS said and make your subscription worth I'm adding more infos:

- You can run two captures at the same time but you risk dropping frames, You can have two PC's running two VCR's.

- The reason why a betacam deck won't do you any good is because it doesn't have frame TBC, so you would be forced to convert the SDI out to analog again to use a consumer TBC, But for Betacam tapes it should work fine without anything in the chain, just hookup the SDI cable from the the deck to Decklink duo on the desktop.

- When it comes to playing back tapes with extracting the signal on tape in mind, the term pro player no longer applies, Pro players had editing functions and playback features that is needed for a broadcast studio production, none of that is needed when it comes to playing back tapes, as a matter fact all processing should be turned off except (TBC/DNR) during capturing, All what's needed from the player is to have line TBC and Y/C out (S-Video).

- Sony DV player is only good for transferring DV/miniDV tapes.

- For analog tapes you can either go S-Video -> frame TBC -> Capture card (USB or PCI) -> PC, Lordsmurf has all this gear for sale.
Or: S-Video -> S&W digitizer -> Decklink Duo -> PC, It's your call, but if you can find a cheap S&W and a Decklink PCI card you can have both workflows like I do on two computers.

[NJRoadfan]

Regarding Hi-8 decks. The reason camcorders are recommended is that they are much newer and more readily available vs. the home VCRs. That and the newer Sony camcorders have built-in TBC/DNR circuits. Hi-8 VCRs are fairly uncommon since it was only really Sony that made them in the early-90s and the few that are out there pretty much need all the surface mount capacitors replaced.

Sony's replacement for the dedicated Hi-8 decks was their "Video Walkman" series, which are literally the guts of a Sony HandyCam minus the camera. They have the same TBC/DNR system as the camcorders along with the same I/O. The only thing they can't handle are PCM digital audio tracks, which you aren't going to encounter on a home user's tapes. Only Sony's early to mid-90s professional Hi-8 cameras (the ones targeted to actual pros) could record PCM audio tracks.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Or: S-Video -> S&W digitizer -> Decklink Duo -> PC, It's your call, but if you can find a cheap S&W and a Decklink PCI card you can have both workflows like I do on two computers.

@Runrunsparrow, to expand on the above...

Keep in mind, this is what's known as a "closed loop" type of system. Once the signal is ingested, whatever happens, happens. There is no option for further signal processing outside the ingest device.

So your ingest source MUST be high quality (which most consumer formats are not). It's not too different from high-end ($1k+ new) JVC S-VHS>DVD decks, where the intention of those was to concurrently dub VHS+DVD from camera source, or (attempt to) convert VHS/S-VHS masters (ie, not made on VCRs, but cameras) to DVD. Now, I have some S-VHS SP tapes, off-air recording of cartoons (about 800 tapes!), where I use this. There is a fail rate, because it is just VHS. But I can chew through most of them just fine.

Hi8 is usually visually good, but it likes to drop frames even more than VHS. The output isn't clocked consistently.

Realize that the external TBCs (from Cypress, DataVideo, as intemded for consumer sources) are locked to 4:2:2. So colorspace can be a BetacamSP consideration.

I would never rely solely on a closed-loop setup. But these have advantages (usually convenience more than quality), and have a place in a conversion studio (large or small).

BetacamSP should have better timing and tolerances, both because of the tape itself, recording deck/camera quality, and simply the format itself. So closed-loop processing surely works on it. My interaction with the format has been minor over the years, but always a quality one.

In other words, you're not going to find a single solution for all sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

Regarding Hi-8 decks. The reason camcorders are recommended is that they are much newer and more readily available vs. the home VCRs. That and the newer Sony camcorders have built-in TBC/DNR circuits. Hi-8 VCRs are fairly uncommon since it was only really Sony that made them in the early-90s and the few that are out there pretty much need all the surface mount capacitors replaced.

Sony's replacement for the dedicated Hi-8 decks was their "Video Walkman" series, which are literally the guts of a Sony HandyCam minus the camera. They have the same TBC/DNR system as the camcorders along with the same I/O. The only thing they can't handle are PCM digital audio tracks, which you aren't going to encounter on a home user's tapes. Only Sony's early to mid-90s professional Hi-8 cameras (the ones targeted to actual pros) could record PCM audio tracks.

This is a really, really good post. I need to use this in the Hi8 guides I'm working on.

[Runrunsparrow]

Iy just struck me that I have a Panasonic WJ-MX12 mixer that came with the recorders that I bought. That one must have some kind of stabilizer/frame store built into it, in order to handle two sources that are not synced. Perhaps it could be of some use as a TBC in between the VCR and capture card?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runrunsparrow

Iy just struck me that I have a Panasonic WJ-MX12 mixer that came with the recorders that I bought. That one must have some kind of stabilizer/frame store built into it, in order to handle two sources that are not synced. Perhaps it could be of some use as a TBC in between the VCR and capture card?

Mixers generally have weak TBC, if any at all. It can work on non-consumers sources (as that's what it was designed for), but VHS and Hi8/Video8 are far less likely.

Since you already have it, you can surely try it.

[hodgey]

They do have a TBC/Frame synchronizer to be able to do effects between multiple video sources (2 in the case of this one). The manual shows VHS/S-VHS VTRs in the setup example connected directly, so I guess it's at least built to handle some instability. You may have to play around with the genlock/sync options on it. It is pretty old (at least as old as 1992, maybe older), so depending on how much it was used, you could encounter issues with aging capacitors and other electronic components.

I have also seen some talk about some of these older mixers maybe using 4:1:1 chroma subsampling, though the specs don't mention anything about it.

I have a WJ-AVE5 (around the same Age I think) and a newer AVE55 here, at first glance when I tested them they seemed like they were capable of a bit (the latter seemed to stabilize a tad better horizontally, but it has some capacitor issues), certainly way better than direct to capture card. Though, I haven't really gotten around to torture testing them on very bad tapes. If they have some use that would be nice, as there are a lot of them floating around n the used market. They seem to have found a niche with people them using them for cirtuit bending (aka horribly breaking them) to create weird video effects

[lordsmurf]

1992? 4:1:1?
Ugh. No.

[Runrunsparrow]

A little trial and error with what you’ve got is a good for learning what you need …

Any of my two players (Pana 7500 & JVC HR-S5800EH directly into my Black M Intensity shuttle USB3 (Mac) made about 10 seconds till the first dropout.

But JVC through MX12 into Intenso: chugged trough 95 minutes of home video from 1987! The only dropout happened when the family video rhapsody ended and the pre recorded tv-show that was on the rest of the tape took over. Not bad for a start scrounging up what I have laying around. And the frame store in the MX12 seems to do a really decent job.

However the image could look better. Most of all there’s some visible flagging at image top coming and going. And some lines look ”dirty” or distrurbed intermitently. And of course there’s that overall VHS crapines that you really want to ged rid of. And that, as I experience it, look worse on the computer screen (even in a small window) compared to the nice and sharp little F&V F3 that I run from the MX12 preview output.

So:

° What should I put in between as a line tbc? Or better try to find a machine with one built in? And even though the MX12 does a decent stabilization job, there ideally would be zero dropouts during a tape transfer.

° Also ideally, I would like the option to adjust some parameters while still in the analogue domain. Like gamma, black and white level or so. Some of the capturing softwares like Empia have a quite nice graphical interface to adjust many of those things, but I suppose these changes are applied after digital conversion and not on the capture card analogue side of the conversion.

° What is there to buy? Is the AVT-8710 for $ 1 200 REALLY the the thing that does the trick? Looks like it was $2 000 of the Wallmart shelf 10 yrs ago, and the outside of it seems very Strait Outa Shenzhen to me. Shouldn’t there be any VCR-DVD combos that actually contain the same circuits, or att least circuits that perform as well?

Pardon me for maybe questioning a bit what you already know and have said, surely from trial and error and lots of reading. It’s not out of disrespect or disbelief of any of you or your answers. It’s to be able for me to learn why certain gear is needed and necessary that I ask these, as they might seem, critical questions. I don’t want to run along and buy gear for several thousands of dollars without knowing exactly why I need to. I am very happy for you support and answers.

[lordsmurf]

"flagging" = tearing, ES10/15 needed on those. Then hand off signal to external TBC, then capture card.

VCR > ES10/15 > TBC > capture

Note that tearing can also be caused by VCR, either a bad model or bad deck.
A line TBC S-VHS model likely correct tearing, and with out ES10/15 side effect (posterization, NR, luma hotness).

The best TBCs have proc amp. And analog domain corrections ideal, follow up with software corrections. Don't make mistakes of thinking everything can be solved in software, because sometimes it cannot.

AVT-8710 was never sold at Walmart -- but B&H, Adorama, Markertek, etc. It is a good TBC, one of the better models, but some are better yet (example = TBC-3000, but only certain modeel generations of 3000, some gens are worse).

Line TBC corrects image, frame TBC correct signals, then only does tape look and act as best as possible for digital ingest. VHS was a chaos format, and you didn't know it was chairs when viewing on CRT TV from VCR. But digital revealed all warts, and you must deal with those to make a quality conversion (or any conversion).

As I often mention, I don't enjoy spending money. But this is my hobby AND (has been) a career. These are the tools I needed, so I bought. Video gear is actually a really cheap hobby or career, compared to others. Tools for photography are more, hobbies like cars or even action figures are much higher costs. Even coin collecting isn't cheap unless you're just after circulated pennies!

[Runrunsparrow]

I would like to add an edit to my last post: I've now read the first article on this page (which I should have from the beginning, but Google made me stumble directly into the forum part). I will never question the need for a good TBC from now on.

Also, I must say I'm a bit flabbergasted over the helpfulness available in here. I really appreciate the patience you've got with us newbies.

Quote:

As I often mention, I don't enjoy spending money. But this is my hobby AND (has been) a career. These are the tools I needed, so I bought. Video gear is actually a really cheap hobby or career, compared to others. Tools for photography are more, hobbies like cars or even action figures are much higher costs. Even coin collecting isn't cheap unless you're just after circulated pennies!

I agree, if this would have been one of my hobbies, like boating, those investments wouldn't look to big. However, I'm trying to set up a small business that I can run from home (because of health issues I can't work in the field anymore). But considering the price level many of the competitors here in Scandinavia have chosen, it will take a very long time to start making money after a €10 000 investment. According to my calculations I would need to have three chains running simultaniously in order to even come close to the fee I could charge as a freelancing photographer and sound engineer. But that's a completely different discussion than the title of this thread

By the way, does the Datavideo TBC-3000 have a ProcAmp?

[lordsmurf]

Yes, 3000 has proc amp.

€10k is a bit high. The TBC is always the largest chunk of a workflow, with VCR next (sometimes less than half the cost), and capture cards are cheap now (most are well under $200). Even most of my best VCR>TBC>card A+ gear workflows have sold for under $3k shipped. A setup with multiple decks is about $5k. You'll find that some of those "competitors" are just noise, not competing on quality. They'll overwork themselves AND for a minimum wage, by charging unrealistic cheap prices. Eventually, they'll burn out, the operation closes.

Did you ever read this?: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/editorials...g-workflow.htm

[cbehr91]

Yes yes on Hi8 cameras vs. decks. I've digitized several hundred Hi8 masters from a documentary videographer from the 1991-98 timeframe with TRV740 or TRV85 cameras. Some tapes were encoded with PCM audio that I was forced to use an EV-S7000 to digitize, a deck known to have chroma issues. The difference between the two was enough that I captured the video with the camera, then the audio with the deck, and synched them together in editing.

I can attest that Hi8 is a very dropout-heavy format even on tapes recorded from an ENG style camera on Maxell BQ tapes ("Broadcast Quality"). A frame sync or better yet a frame TBC is required, not suggested.

Regarding BetaSP. At work a dub station was set up (not by me) with a custom-built PC and a BlackMagic UltraStudio Mini. I captured BetaSP via Component (just straight from the deck...don't recall the model number off-hand), and didn't have dropped frames, etc., but YMMV. I'm not a fan of BM gear either, but I didn't buy it.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbehr91

Regarding BetaSP. At work a dub station was set up (not by me) with a custom-built PC and a BlackMagic UltraStudio Mini. I captured BetaSP via Component (just straight from the deck...don't recall the model number off-hand), and didn't have dropped frames, etc., but YMMV. I'm not a fan of BM gear either, but I didn't buy it.

A lot of people freak out when they hear the word BlackMagic, Digital SDI cards are not capture cards they just route the AVI digital stream from point A to point B such as SDI-USB3, SDI-PCIe, SDI-ExpressCard.

Analog capture cards on the other hand range from really bad to acceptable usually PCIe being on the acceptable side and USB analog devices are on the bad side (such as the intensity shuttle), But they all work well in the presence of a frame TBC. I don't own a BM analog capture card just based on what I read on the forums but if I have to choose between a BM analog capture card and an easycrap I will go for BM before I even blink my eye.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbehr91

Regarding BetaSP. At work a dub station was set up (not by me) with a custom-built PC and a BlackMagic UltraStudio Mini. I captured BetaSP via Component (just straight from the deck...don't recall the model number off-hand), and didn't have dropped frames, etc., but YMMV. I'm not a fan of BM gear either, but I didn't buy it.

A number of the BetaSP decks contain a built-in TBC (which was possibly full-frame) so maybe that was what was used in your case, which would probably be nice and stable and avoid frame drops and such even with the blackmagic cards. What they can't handle is composite or s-video directly from a VCR, they seem to be set up in a manner that just blacks out frames if they're not perfectly in time for whatever reason.

I use a blackmagic card myself to capture from the HDMI output of a DVR, and the card itself doesn't drop any frames when doing that (though the DVR, or for that matter a TBC can still decide do drop frames).