VCR with TBC cannot play LP mode recordings?

[araset]

Hi I have bought JVC 7611 and I am trying to play my recordings recordered on another vcrs. Unfortunately I can't play it properly. There are interferences on one tape bigger on another smaller. I tried with tbc on/off, manual tracking. There is no much difference in playing these cassetes then my previous combo Panasonic es35v. I have bought used JVC, it plays SP tapes properly. The situation is exacly the same like on the Panasonic combo. Thanks for any suggestions.

[lordsmurf]

LP mode is problematic, NTSC or PAL (or variant). For LP/EP(SLP) mode tapes, Panasonic must sometimes be used instead. There's a reason most of us own multiple VCRs or different makes (mostly JVC/Panasonic).

It may just be a bad tape.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by araset

Hi I have bought JVC 7611 and I am trying to play my recordings recordered on another vcrs. Unfortunately I can't play it properly. There are interferences on one tape bigger on another smaller. I tried with tbc on/off, manual tracking. There is no much difference in playing these cassetes then my previous combo Panasonic es35v. I have bought used JVC, it plays SP tapes properly. The situation is exacly the same like on the Panasonic combo. Thanks for any suggestions.

Can you upload some still or even better movie examples to help identify the problem?

[Eric-Jan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by araset

Hi I have bought JVC 7611 and I am trying to play my recordings recordered on another vcrs. Unfortunately I can't play it properly. There are interferences on one tape bigger on another smaller. I tried with tbc on/off, manual tracking. There is no much difference in playing these cassetes then my previous combo Panasonic es35v. I have bought used JVC, it plays SP tapes properly. The situation is exacly the same like on the Panasonic combo. Thanks for any suggestions.

If your (Panasonic) es35v (own one myself) can't do any better with LP recordings, other vcr/recorders can't do any better is my guess, i noticed with the LP recordings i have. it tries to compensates, (it adds/doubles extra lines to it, they say…) if the image jumps (up/down) during playback, this will also be visible in your capture, but no frames will be dropped during this,
the LP recording will look a bit grainy, but that's better then nothing at all, maybe it can be filtered out, i don't know that because i leave it like that, if the recording is LP, which is a lower resolution anyway.
The used vcr should be in good condition ofcourse, LP playback is difficult if it's not played back where it was recorded on, sometimes the tracking range will not be as extended, so it can't be corrected enough.
this is only by my experiences, this can be different with other people.
I own also some other vcr's even JVC's with also tbc, My es35v stays my main one, using component to convert with prosumer converter to convert to digital SDI which i record to SSD.

[lordsmurf]

The tracking range isn't really the issue, and "must play on machine recorded" is a myth (misalign easily done to match).

It's entirely the ability to the recorder to recognize LP. This wasn't a 100% fully standardized mode, too short lived, so playback can be hit-or-miss.

Those new DVD/VHS combo units never playback LP or even EP/SLP correctly, being low end EOL VHS deck mostly made for playback of retail tapes to a TV. Not to copy the tapes, etc, even if claimed on the box/manual.

[Eric-Jan]

btw… you did not mention your capture device, the es35v does a good job in making the video stable, JVC, even with tbc did not work for me,
you can also make different combinations in using which to use as player or passthrough ofcourse, whichever works best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The tracking range isn't really the issue, and "must play on machine recorded" is a myth (misalign easily done to match).

It's entirely the ability to the recorder to recognize LP. This wasn't a 100% fully standardized mode, too short lived, so playback can be hit-or-miss.

well… you're saying the same as i did, so there goes your myth.

[hodgey]

I've honestly never experienced a PAL LP tape that had some major variance in playing/not playing between different players (other than players that don't support LP at all.) like I hear people here talking about with SLP/EP NTSC tapes where some vcrs are able to do much better than others so I doubt just a different VCR will somehow help. I think the only failure like that I've seen was on a VHSC camcorder but not sure if that was a LP tape.

Hard to say what the problem is without seeing though. Maybe the recording vcr was misaligned or something?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

I've honestly never experienced a PAL LP tape that had some major variance in playing/not playing between different players (other than players that don't support LP at all.) like I hear people here talking about with SLP/EP NTSC tapes where some vcrs are able to do much better than others so I doubt just a different VCR will somehow help. I think the only failure like that I've seen was on a VHSC camcorder but not sure if that was a LP tape.

Hard to say what the problem is without seeing though. Maybe the recording vcr was misaligned or something?

I think part of the issue is we're each discussing LP a bit differently. LP isn't a simple issue of being a speed between SP (2-hour on T-120 NTSC and E-120 PAL tapes) and SLP/EP (6 hours).

For PAL, 6 hours was less commonly used (really not even available until the late 90s), and LP was more frequent. But still not common.

The main reason for VHS tape extended speeds was costs.
BASF is a European company, and (from what I've been told over the years, and read) VHS tapes were actually a bit cheaper in Europe at the time. PAL VCRs were SP-only for longer than NTSC, and it just became an ingrained habit to record everything SP.

Eventually PAL officially added LP, and NTSC added SLP (later named EP). Many PAL camcorders were still SP only.

But between SP only, and adding PAL LP and NTSC SLP, both PAL+NTSC LP modes were unofficially added. It was never official spec (never for NTSC, initially for PAL), thus implementation was all over the place. In many ways, NTSC LP (dual compromise) is actually worse than SLP/EP (single compromise), and early PAL LP is the same. LP can look SP-ish, but gets smeary/blurry more than SLP/EP.

There are some good comments in this thread (and a few bad)
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...over-the-years

So the head pickup of LP can be erratic. It fully depends on the recording device used. It may playback too fast, or too slow, and you have to realign to the speed of the tape. It can also pick up excessive noises, other errors.

The worst non-SP tapes I've ever dealt with were always PAL LP and PAL SLP/EP. As I often state, neither PAL nor NTSC was better, just different. Each had various strengths and weaknesses. For recording modes, PAL was just awful beyond SP.

I don't run into this issue much anymore, not like 10-20 years ago. I can only assume this is due to less conversions happening now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric-Jan

well… you're saying the same as i did, so there goes your myth.

Not quite. Misalignment drift tends to continue to drift. So going back to the recording VCR rarely does any good. You have to "break" the alignment, purposely misalign. That's not something I suggest others attempt, as it can result in a massively screwed up VCR that is difficult to properly realign again. We're generally not discussing a nominal realignment, but major. It's also easy to break stuff if you're a hamfisted brute.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

.. Hard to say what the problem is without seeing though. Maybe the recording vcr was misaligned or something?

Yes that's why I requested some picture samples. A misaligned camera also came to mind. Especially at LP tape speed.

[Eric-Jan]

Long Play was not that common on VHS in the Netherlands is my impression on that, we do have had good working E-240 VHS tapes, anything above that length, like E-300 was rare or of bad quality,
compatebility of Long Play between different VCR's was not ensured, that's why you should have the same recorded VCR to playback with is my point, i believe only Betamax made more use of Long Play use ? even pre-recorded tapes i heard..
and yes, a Panasonic VHS player, (combo?) will be best option to play LP recordings, although still problematic,
i do not know fore sure if i have the original vcr of my LP recordings, do multiple (rotating) heads have effect on playback quality of LP recordings ? if so, this could be an improvement then.

[araset]

Here is the link to the video of playing the lp recording.
https://upload.disroot.org/r/o5uTkhv...E9lwrxkXtA1/c=

[latreche34]

From the looks of it, the tape is recorded on a miss aligned VCR, You may have to find a candidate VCR to miss align for the purpose of capturing that tape.

[araset]

So I could use this tutorial for my JVC 7611?
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr...c-vhs-vcr.html

[lordsmurf]

Just be careful.

[hodgey]

I would really suggest doing it on a less expensive vcr rather than risk ruining that expensive JVC. You can pass the video via your ES35V for stabilization, it works basically like the oft-discussed DMR-ES15 it just has a built in VCR.

[araset]

Yes, You are right, I won't be doing it on my JVC. What about Panasonic nv sd427. It's much cheaper. Unfortunately I don't have es35v yet because I sold it to buy jvc. I have plenty of cassetes which was recordered on Panasonic vcr that seams to be misaligned so I think it's worth trying.

[hodgey]

That's decent option for this if you can get it for cheap and it's in working order. Same solid mechanism (K-mechanism) as the much fancier AG1980P, NV-HS1000 etc. It does not have hi-fi though so it won't play back the hi-fi track of the original recording VCR had that. Though be aware that the guides on this mechanism have an extra screw on them you have to loosen to lock/unlock the tape guides before adjusting them.

You can get a cheaper panasonic dvd-recorder for stabilization if you've sold the ES35V, was just a suggesting since I thought you still had that one but it doesn't have anything special over the ones without a built in VCR really and tend to be overpriced for what they are.

[araset]

I have found Panasonic nv sd450 which is ejecting tapes after inserting. Can it be repaired by unexperienced user and there are some tutorials or it can be something serious and it's not worth risking? Thanks.

[hodgey]

If it's not loading tapes properly it may be the common issue with the k mechanism (SD450 is also k mech) that the motor gear coupling splits. I have fixed this on a deck I have by epoxying it to the shaft and someone else here I managed to get it working with string and superglue instead. Whether it holds up long term idk but at least it's worked short term. I don't know if there are any tutorials/videos of fixing it with this method though there are some for taking the part out and replacing it so I guess that could be followed and instead of swapping you glue it. (Getting an actual replacements would not be worth it for a cheap vcr since the part is rare or have to be salvaged from another vcr but if you can fix it with epoxy or similar it's an option)

I've also experienced 2 decks with this mech the mech was just a bit sluggish and needed to be jobbed and loaded/unloaded a bunch of times before properly working. Whether any of this is the case with this one i can't guarantee ofc.

I guess it depends on how much they're asking for it and how adventurous you are.

[araset]

Ok so I will try to buy vcr with no deffects. I have found Panasonic nv gd40 in similar price to this super driver. Which one would be better/easier for my misalignment?