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  #1  
01-04-2021, 09:04 PM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Happy New Year to all.

I'm working on on a capture of an old news story that was recorded to a home VCR from a news broadcast about fifteen years ago. Samples are enclosed (they came straight out of VirtualDub). My equipment is a JVC SR-V101US and a BVTBC10 external TBC from LS. My dilemma with this tape is as follows:
  • If line TBC is turned on (JVC deck), then the capture has what I understand is known as vertical image jitter.
  • If line TBC is turned off (JVC deck), there's no jitter, but the quality isn't as good.
Should I capture without line TBC or capture with line TBC and attempt to eliminate the jitter using software? I welcome your opinions and advice.


Attached Files
File Type: avi JAN21-Beachcomber-Sample-A-No-Line-TBR.avi (94.29 MB, 19 downloads)
File Type: avi JAN21-Beachcomber-Sample-B-With-Line-TBR.avi (93.47 MB, 14 downloads)
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  #2  
01-04-2021, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
If line TBC is turned on (JVC deck), then the capture has what I understand is known as vertical image jitter.
This happens with the timing if the tape is pretty badly damaged. Visually, it may seem "not that bad" without TBC, but it is damaged. Trying to correct the damage results in correction, or at least a correctino attempt, but it harms visuals even more. The signal has an expected number of horizontal lines, but for whatever reason the top line is missing. JVC doesn't fill-in this line, and it vertically "jitters" for that field.

Panasonic has a field TBC, essentially multi-line TBC, and is less prone to do this. But it's still not immune if the timing is really off/bad.

Quote:
If line TBC is turned off (JVC deck), there's no jitter, but the quality isn't as good.
That's an ugly signal. You can tell from all the jerky harsh side-to-side timing jitter/wiggles. Very damaged.

Quote:
Should I capture without line TBC or capture with line TBC and attempt to eliminate the jitter using software? I welcome your opinions and advice.
This is where ES10/15 shines. The line TBC is strong, to the degree of beating both JVc and Panasonic put together -- and yet, it's sadly crippled due to Macrovision detection (an artificial video error), which often kicks in on natural video errors. The crippled aspect usually just passes anti-copy (hole bored into TBC to allow it to pass), so you still need a frame TBC to chase it. And you do have that frame TBC, so not a worry here.

You need an ES10/15.

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  #3  
01-04-2021, 10:23 PM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Quote:
That's an ugly signal. You can tell from all the jerky harsh side-to-side timing jitter/wiggles. Very damaged.
Yes, it's a garbage recording, to be sure, but it's what I have The VCR that made it was a low-grade deck, I think either a Magnavox or something built into an Aiwa CRT set. My family never owned any good VCRs, so any broadcasts that we recorded in the eighties, nineties, or early 2000s are of poor quality. The first decent VCR I've ever owned is this JVC.

Quote:
This is where ES10/15 shines. The line TBC is strong, to the degree of beating both JVc and Panasonic put together -- and yet, it's sadly crippled due to Macrovision detection (an artificial video error), which often kicks in on natural video errors. The crippled aspect usually just passes anti-copy (hole bored into TBC to allow it to pass), so you still need a frame TBC to chase it. And you do have that frame TBC, so not a worry here.

You need an ES10/15.
Okay. There seems to be lots of those on eBay, and I presume trying my luck there won't be as risky as it would be for the other links in my chain.
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  #4  
01-04-2021, 10:29 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
If line TBC is turned on (JVC deck), then the capture has what I understand is known as vertical image jitter.
If you mean by jitter that frame jump every few seconds? Both samples have it, Remove the frame TBC momentarily and post a sample.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
If line TBC is turned off (JVC deck), there's no jitter, but the quality isn't as good.
That is because when you turn off line TBC, DNR is turned off as well so you get noise in the picture, JVC 3DNR technology is one of the best I've seen.

Last edited by latreche34; 01-04-2021 at 10:51 PM. Reason: typo
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  #5  
01-04-2021, 11:07 PM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Third sample attached with TBC initially off and then turned on during the taking of the sample.


Attached Files
File Type: avi JAN21-Beachcomber-Sample-C-Line-TBC-On-Off.avi (93.09 MB, 7 downloads)
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  #6  
01-05-2021, 11:09 AM
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ES10/15 can be safe to buy on eBay.

However, remember these were consumer items, equally used by smart people, and the bucktooth numbnuts neighbor that plays his music too loud at 2am.

Problems:

- You want DVD recorder, not ash tray. If not confirmed non-smoking, avoid. If answer is "I don't know", assume smoking, avoid. If seller sniffs it and "smells nothing", assume seller couldn't smell fart from a skunk, avoid. Trust me, I've been through that BS many times (not with ES10/15, or even video equipment, but other items). Learned my lesson, you learn from me. People get lung cancer (tar buildup, etc), but so do items.

- Pets are nice, but not near video electronics. If not pet-free home, assume it's full of dog/cat/whatever hair and dander. Again, been there, done that.

- Kids are dumb with electronics. You want to know how it was used, who used it. Otherwise it could be full of LEGOs, old PB&J sandwich, snot boogers, etc. In fact, assume that's the case, unless given info to the contrary.

eBay is a gamble. It's hard to screw up the ES10/15, but certainly not impossible. Do your research, ask questions, try to minimize your risk. Realize that most sellers lie and BS to sell stuff, so you need to watch for weasel statements. Anything improper, any uneasy feelings, no deal, move on, regardless of how tempting to price.

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  #7  
01-05-2021, 02:42 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
Third sample attached with TBC initially off and then turned on during the taking of the sample.
What's the purpose of this sample, you've already posted that, Try removing the frame TBC and see if that jump disappears.
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  #8  
01-05-2021, 02:48 PM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
ES10/15 can be safe to buy on eBay.

However, remember these were consumer items, equally used by smart people, and the bucktooth numbnuts neighbor that plays his music too loud at 2am.

Problems:

- You want DVD recorder, not ash tray. If not confirmed non-smoking, avoid. If answer is "I don't know", assume smoking, avoid. If seller sniffs it and "smells nothing", assume seller couldn't smell fart from a skunk, avoid. Trust me, I've been through that BS many times (not with ES10/15, or even video equipment, but other items). Learned my lesson, you learn from me. People get lung cancer (tar buildup, etc), but so do items.

- Pets are nice, but not near video electronics. If not pet-free home, assume it's full of dog/cat/whatever hair and dander. Again, been there, done that.

- Kids are dumb with electronics. You want to know how it was used, who used it. Otherwise it could be full of LEGOs, old PB&J sandwich, snot boogers, etc. In fact, assume that's the case, unless given info to the contrary.

eBay is a gamble. It's hard to screw up the ES10/15, but certainly not impossible. Do your research, ask questions, try to minimize your risk. Realize that most sellers lie and BS to sell stuff, so you need to watch for weasel statements. Anything improper, any uneasy feelings, no deal, move on, regardless of how tempting to price.
Thanks for all this advice, very helpful. I will only buy from a seller that offers returns, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
What's the purpose of this sample, you've already posted that, Try removing the frame TBC and see if that jump disappears.
Attached is a new sample with the frame TBC removed. Thanks for clarifying what you were asking about. Sample C does differ a little bit from A and B in that the sample starts out with line TBC off and then it's turned on. In this fourth sample, the BVTBC10 is not in the capture chain at all, it's just the JVC deck sending a signal to my All In Wonder capture card.


Attached Files
File Type: avi JAN21-Beachcomber-Sample-D-Line-NoFrameTBC-LineTBC-On-Off.avi (97.54 MB, 13 downloads)
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  #9  
01-05-2021, 07:37 PM
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Can I get the cheat sheet? Was that 4th new capture unchanged?

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  #10  
01-06-2021, 01:54 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
Attached is a new sample with the frame TBC removed. Thanks for clarifying what you were asking about. Sample C does differ a little bit from A and B in that the sample starts out with line TBC off and then it's turned on. In this fourth sample, the BVTBC10 is not in the capture chain at all, it's just the JVC deck sending a signal to my All In Wonder capture card.
This sample shows that nothing has changed, it also shows that the frame TBC was not doing anything so just leave it out for now to avoid an extra un-necessary ADC-DAC step, The VCR's line TBC is doing its job fixing wiggle and removing chroma and luma noise, It is not suppose to fix that frame jump. At this point I think the tape is recorded that way and I'm afraid that buying more gear won't help, Possibly the frame TBC is weak too, but you can always experiment to learn, We all do it.

I also noticed that the frame TBC is darkening the levels and smearing the chroma a little bit.

Last edited by latreche34; 01-06-2021 at 02:04 PM. Reason: Added info
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  #11  
01-06-2021, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
T it also shows that the frame TBC was not doing anything so just leave it out for now to avoid an extra un-necessary ADC-DAC step
That's a terrible assertion. The frame TBC in use here has extremely nice transparency, and it should look invisible. What it's doing is frame sync TBC'ing the signal, not line TBC corrections. A goal of a good TBC is transparency. That's a reason that so many TBCs suck, you can see noise or image harm.

Quote:
The VCR's line TBC is doing its job fixing wiggle and removing chroma and luma noise,
Not doing, but trying to do.

Quote:
It is not suppose to fix that frame jump.
The frame jump is a result of line count mismatch from bad in-frame timing. JVC TBCs are nice, but do get overrun with excessive errors of this exact nature. The ES10/15 is the fix here. This timing error is not too different from tearing, what the ES10/15 excels at.

Quote:
At this point I think the tape is recorded that way and I'm afraid that buying more gear won't help,
It is the tape/recording causing this, and the ES10/15 is likely the fix.

Quote:
Possibly the frame TBC is weak too,
No. In fact, this exact version of this model is extremely good. Not weak whatsoever.

Quote:
I also noticed that the frame TBC is darkening the levels and smearing the chroma a little bit.
Don't make the wrong assumption here. Capture cards can have values thrown off in the presence of timing errors. So a TBC'd signal can appear different (darker/lighter/etc), etc, more true to actual source. This exact TBC has an effective proc amp as well, so it can easily be altered. The TBC itself does not do any smearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachcomber
TBC
The comb filter is off. Turn it on. It will screw with the color values, but again proc amp. This is advanced usage of this device. The comb filter can get pissy in the presence of anti-copy, hence why I've turned if off by default. Before changing values, write down what they are now, seeing as I how calibrated everything. Before messing with other values, just try comb on/off to see what affect, if any, that it has here.

But ES10/15 probably still in your future. That's ugly source.

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  #12  
01-06-2021, 03:45 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
That's a terrible assertion. The frame TBC in use here has extremely nice transparency, and it should look invisible. What it's doing is frame sync TBC'ing the signal, not line TBC corrections. A goal of a good TBC is transparency. That's a reason that so many TBCs suck, you can see noise or image harm.
Unfortunately I did not see any transparency, Image is darker and colors are smeared, This is just my personal observation, the OP is free to use his gear in any way he wants.
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  #13  
01-06-2021, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Unfortunately I did not see any transparency, Image is darker and colors are smeared, This is just my personal observation, the OP is free to use his gear in any way he wants.
I had to calibrate down the TBC down to about 96 from 128, due to the way it works in combo with other filters. Different tapes may react different, so the proc amp can be adjusted as needed. But again, timing errors can induce value changes in the brightness level, as can interplay with the capture card.

I see zero chroma smearing. I just looked at the samples in 2x on my calibrated video system.

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  #14  
01-07-2021, 02:09 PM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Quote:
Can I get the cheat sheet? Was that 4th new capture unchanged?
A quick guide to the captures:

Has Frame TBC
  • Capture A was made without any line TBC on the JVC deck
  • Capture B was made *with* line TBC enabled on the JVC deck
  • Capture C was made with line TBC off initially and then turned on during the taking of the clip
No Frame TBC
  • Capture D was made with line TBC off initially and then turned on during the taking of the clip
Quote:
But ES10/15 probably still in your future. That's ugly source.
An ES15 should arrive today (found one on eBay that I hope will be decent -- even has its original remote, which indicates it may have been well cared for.) I'll post a new sample once I've been able to run the ugly source through it.

It's best to have line TBC off on the JVC deck to allow the ES15 to do its job, I understand.
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  #15  
01-11-2021, 07:20 PM
beachcomber beachcomber is offline
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Alrighty, well, the Panasonic ES15 showed up, I added it to the workflow, and... the frame jumps are as effectively neutralized as I could have hoped for. Thank you, LS! Here's Sample E.


Attached Files
File Type: avi JAN21-Beachcomber-Sample-E-Panasonic-ES15-Added.avi (98.78 MB, 4 downloads)
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  #16  
01-11-2021, 07:28 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Except now you have to choose between the line wiggle or the frame jump, What happens when you turn on the VCR's line TBC while the ES15 in line?
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  #17  
01-11-2021, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
Alrighty, well, the Panasonic ES15 showed up, I added it to the workflow, and... the frame jumps are as effectively neutralized as I could have hoped for. Thank you, LS! Here's Sample E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Except now you have to choose between the line wiggle or the frame jump, What happens when you turn on the VCR's line TBC while the ES15 in line?
That's not possible. The 1st line TBC owns the signal.
- JVC TBC on = ES10/15 TBC(ish) does nothing
- JVC TBC off = signal passed to ES10/15 for processing, signal TBC(ish)'d

The -ish is because it's a crippled TBC, thanks for anti-copy. You rarely see tearing/wiggle pass, but other issues can come up frame still required the actual frame TBC.

Anyway -- there's no wiggle there.
(Yes, yes, slight wiggle, TBC can never 100% perfectly pixel-lock. But this is better than the JVC was doing, and far better than sans-TBC.)

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