Quantcast AJA frame sync mini? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
01-20-2021, 09:21 AM
waloshin waloshin is offline
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Would a AJA frame sync mini between my Ag 1980p, or JVC 7600u help stablize the video like a TBC?

I will be using an AJA Kona LHI

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  #2  
01-20-2021, 10:02 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is online now
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I have no experience with it--I assume it would do its job in terms of frame sync, but it's not really designed for use with a VCR.
Its only input is SDI, so you would have to convert the analog output from the VCR to SDI before passing it through the FS Mini.
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  #3  
01-20-2021, 10:15 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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What it can do is synchronize an already digitized signal to another one for switching between them seamlessly, but that doesn't have a lot of use for capturing since the signal has already been digitized at that point. Any correction to the video is going to be up to whatever digitizes it from analog.
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  #4  
01-20-2021, 11:07 AM
waloshin waloshin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
What it can do is synchronize an already digitized signal to another one for switching between them seamlessly, but that doesn't have a lot of use for capturing since the signal has already been digitized at that point. Any correction to the video is going to be up to whatever digitizes it from analog.
So therefore, useless for digitizing VHS tapes?
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  #5  
01-20-2021, 11:09 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is online now
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Yes, useless. It's meant for digital signals, not analog.
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  #6  
01-20-2021, 01:21 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Which model, This one? It's a SDI to HDMI converter audio de-serializer. Aja have some analog to SDI digitizers that work well with your Aja Kona SDI interface but they are over $2000 new.
And no, a pro TBC does not work the way a consumer TBC works, at least in the last two decades when Betcama became popular, In the pro world the TBC and all other timing and processing are done after digitizing for accuracy and to prevent multiple A/D and D/A conversions and preserve the original quality. But since you have an SDI interface in your computer not just Aja makes such devices, S&W, Ensemble Designs, BlackMagic, GrassValley just to name few.
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  #7  
01-20-2021, 02:08 PM
waloshin waloshin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Which model, This one? It's a SDI to HDMI converter audio de-serializer. Aja have some analog to SDI digitizers that work well with your Aja Kona SDI interface but they are over $2000 new.
And no, a pro TBC does not work the way a consumer TBC works, at least in the last two decades when Betcama became popular, In the pro world the TBC and all other timing and processing are done after digitizing for accuracy and to prevent multiple A/D and D/A conversions and preserve the original quality. But since you have an SDI interface in your computer not just Aja makes such devices, S&W, Ensemble Designs, BlackMagic, GrassValley just to name few.
Any suggestions? Budget up to $1000 new or used.
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  #8  
01-20-2021, 02:59 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Well, I'm not sure about the price now but few years ago were sold for peanuts because people didn't know how to use them, Now they are hard to find and when found they usually go for big money, I don't know and didn't test all of them but just look for any analog to SDI TBC/digitizer. Models such as S&W TBS190AD, GrassValley CVR600AD, Ensemble Designs BrightEye 75 .... etc.
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  #9  
01-20-2021, 04:37 PM
waloshin waloshin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Well, I'm not sure about the price now but few years ago were sold for peanuts because people didn't know how to use them, Now they are hard to find and when found they usually go for big money, I don't know and didn't test all of them but just look for any analog to SDI TBC/digitizer. Models such as S&W TBS190AD, GrassValley CVR600AD, Ensemble Designs BrightEye 75 .... etc.
Appreciate your help.
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  #10  
01-20-2021, 06:23 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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FWIW: For an SDI input the Black Magic Design Analog-to-SDI mini converter can convert SD and HD analog video, (component, composite, and s-video & audio) to 10-bit SDI. Available for under $195.

I've done a few quick tests of one fed by SD color bars and the output and captured through a BMD Mini-Recorder into an NLE. The color bar levels are within 1 IRE and UV levels are within 2% of expected digital values.

However, be aware that it expects a solid, compliant signal. Blacks are clamped to digital black (16 or 64) at 0 or 7.5 IRE input (depending on setting) and whites over 100 IRE are limited to 100. Consumer format SD sources will most likely need line and frame TBC. With material that has crushed blacks and/or ultra whites proc amp correction will be required for best results.
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  #11  
01-20-2021, 08:52 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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It would not work, he needs a capture device with built in TBC/frame sync like the SDI boxes I mentioned above, That card is only good for analog HD.
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  #12  
01-21-2021, 05:52 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
... That card is only good for analog HD.

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/11424-aja-frame-sync.html#ixzz6kBJ2AUzc
If you are speaking about the BMD Analog to SDI Mini Converter, rest assure it supports NTSC and PAL SD as well as HD analog inputs.

But I agree, and as noted, it is not a TBC or frame sync, but does offer some basic level adjustment.
A separate TBC would be in order and arguably more flexible. Would that be easier to find within the stated budget?
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  #13  
01-21-2021, 06:10 AM
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SDI workflows are simply not meant for consumer sources, period, the end. It's a closed-loop system, and it impossible to address many/certain/all errors in consumer sources. You need an open-loop setup, which follows the normal recipe for quality conversion: VCR/camera with line TBC > frame TBC > quality capture card

TBCs were always in the $500+ range, with most being in the $1k+ range. There were some exceptions, 15-20 years ago, all plastic Cypress, for sub-$500. But that was then, not now. TBCs have become scarce, prices are back at MSRP or higher. For hobbyists and pros, suck it up, all hobbies have costs, all businesses required capex -- and this video gear is cheap compared to most hobbies/businesses. For casual users, buy it, use it, resell it.

FYI: One of the biggest problems with TBCs is now condition, not merely availability. In the past 2 years, we saw lots of dodgy "good model" TBCs being put on eBay (all "used" and "tested" and "working", all BS). Now we're seeing the results of that, with multiple "for parts" and "as is" and "untested" units (the same non-working junk being passed around). So buyer beware, select your TBC merchant carefully! I still have a few vetted TBCs on the marketplace, but I know it won't last.

I've sought "TBC alternatives" for years now (for myself, and for the rest of you), and have exhausted most potential leads. Most "alternatives" are disappointing, not really alternatives at all. At best, most are kinda-sorta (not really) TBC functionality, in very specific situations. Not general use like a good TBC. I've wasted a lot of money on disappointments.

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  #14  
01-21-2021, 08:45 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
SDI workflows are simply not meant for consumer sources, period, the end. It's a closed-loop system,

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/newr...#ixzz6kC34JWW7
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by closed loop in this case? (I understand closed loop in the context of feedback and control systems. I'm not sure what you mean in this video capture context.)

The SDI work flow might be:
VCR -> TBC -> PROC AMP -> SDI converter -> SDI capture card -> Capture software & PC
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  #15  
01-21-2021, 12:51 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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No, He means by closed loop applying the TBC after digitizing, While open loop applying TBC then convert back to analog and digitize again. I've been using this so called closed loop system for years now and concluded that it outperforms any consumer open loop workflow by a mile, But we don't have to agree on everything, One can experiment and find what's good for himself by himself.
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  #16  
01-21-2021, 01:30 PM
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SDI converters have their own TBC/etc in most cases. So you can't do VCR > TBC > SDI+TBC

Technically, I guess you can, but then you're paying extra for worthless features (ie, the SDI convert TBC will not do anything, as 2nd frame>frame or line>line TBC in a workflow is essentially inert). And then it defeats the purpose/argument for getting SDI converters at all (ie, reducing/removing A<>D conversions).

A standard SDI workflow is VCR/camera > SDI converter ... and done. For pro sources, that works well.

See the problem yet?

Consumer sources are volatile. I am never able to keep the same workflow from week to week. Some tapes hate certain VCRs, and certain VCRs hate certain TBCs or capture cards, etc. Sometimes tapes require disabling line TBCs, or removing removing the frame TBCs. Then there's optional proc amps, detailers, etc.

closed loop = cannot alter equipment/settings
Once the signal goes into the SDI converter, whatever happens happens. You're further limited on the ingest choices (formats, codecs). SDI converters are proprietary, you won't be using VirtualDub.

open loop = alter equipment/settings at a granular level
The signal can be addressed at each step along the workflow path. TBC (or not), proc amp (or not), capture card, and finally format/codec.

Both have their places in capture setups, but it depends on what you're capturing. Getting SDI converters for VHS sources is somewhat daft, wrong tool for the task. Sure, sometimes it works, but it won't be easily repeated. (And anybody who thinks "I'll be a sometimes" probably will not be. Everybody likes to thinks themselves an exception, but almost none are.)

I realize Blackmagic has non-TBC SDI converters, but then it's also Blackmagic. BM sucks at handling SD sources, especially consumer sources like VHS. That converters doesn't make much sense, as it's essentially an expensive proprietary capture card. I guess the only think going for it is that it works on most recent macOS?

Most VHS+DVD combo recorders are another example of closed-loop, as you cannot inject TBCs into the VHS>DVD workflow. You either have to use it as-is (take your chances), or not at all. And we all know how well that looks!

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01-21-2021, 04:52 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Thanks. I guess I was puzzled by the term "loop" which to me implies a feedback mechanism that compares input to output to generate an error correction signal. Example - a car's ignition and emissions controls.

To me the description given is more of a closed system (no adjustment possible) vs. an open system (internal system parameters and components can be altered by the user).

My comment on the BMD Analog to SDI was mentioned as a method to obtain a SDI signal to feed an existing SDI capture card. For those not familiar with it the Analog to SDI is not a card but an external signal converter box with component, composite, s-video, analog or AES/EBU audio inputs, and two SDI outputs.
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  #18  
01-21-2021, 09:41 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Thanks. I guess I was puzzled by the term "loop" which to me implies a feedback mechanism that compares input to output to generate an error correction signal. Example - a car's ignition and emissions controls.

To me the description given is more of a closed system (no adjustment possible) vs. an open system (internal system parameters and components can be altered by the user).

My comment on the BMD Analog to SDI was mentioned as a method to obtain a SDI signal to feed an existing SDI capture card. For those not familiar with it the Analog to SDI is not a card but an external signal converter box with component, composite, s-video, analog or AES/EBU audio inputs, and two SDI outputs.
No, SDI is not a conversion, it is the the digitization itself, An SDI capture device has the procamp, and all adjustments that a consumer TBC has in addition to the TBC/frame synch, Any adjustment can be turned off or on, TBC can be turned off or on from the control panel or a PC app, There is nothing closed about it except name calling. The only difference is a consumer TBC requires cables and does an additional conversion to analog and again to digital, An SDI capture device doesn't need to physically remove the cables to disable the TBC. You can only understand this workflow when you start using it otherwise it's all speculations and guessing.
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  #19  
01-22-2021, 10:41 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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[QUOTE=latreche34;74598]No, SDI is not a conversion, it is the the digitization itself, An SDI capture device has the procamp, and all adjustments that a consumer TBC has in addition to the TBC/frame synch, Any adjustment can be turned off or on, .../QUOTE]

To clarify: SDI is digital a signal protocol, the BMD Analog-to-SDI Mini Converter takes analog video and audio input signals and encodes them into a SDI data stream, which is digital. Ingesting the SDI stream into a file on PC requires a separate capture card and software.

The controls available to a user will depend on the device under consideration. In the case of the BMD Analog to SDI Mini Converter they are somewhat limited, will depend on the specific signal that is input; e.g., HD vs. SD, with DIP switch settings to configure it for component, composite or s-video, setup level (0 or 7.5 IRE), analog or AES/EBU audio, SMPTE or BETACAM levels, and output can be set to 3G level A or B. Some limited proc amp-like settings are accessible via USB connection - audio, Video, R-Y and B-Y gain. NTSC vs PAL and HD vs SD are automatic based on connected signal.

There is no mention of a TBC or frame buffer in the documentation or any user control to enable/disable it. However, the device contains a 128 MB DDR2 memory chip.

It is but a compact tool that may or may not work in a given situation depending on the quality of the input signals.
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  #20  
01-22-2021, 01:20 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
To clarify: SDI is digital a signal protocol, the BMD Analog-to-SDI Mini Converter takes analog video and audio input signals and encodes them into a SDI data stream, which is digital. Ingesting the SDI stream into a file on PC requires a separate capture card and software.
No, Analog to SDI is capturing, SDI to PC is transferring, For example you can't capture DV, you just transfer it, You need a firewire interface to put DV on the hard drive just like you need a SDI interface to put lossless digital AVI on the hard drive.

Analog to SDI cards/devices are not converters, they are analog capture cards/devices and SDI interfaces are not capture cards/devices despite being called such names by even the manufacturers themselves, so to summarize:
Analog to SDI --> Capture into lossless AVI
SDI-PCIe or SDI-USB3 --> SDI interface

The card you keep referring to is indeed an analog SDI capture card but it lacks TBC so it is not suitable for capturing VHS. Analog to SDI capture devices that have TBC are the ones I recommend.

For instance here is how the controls look like in the BE75 control menu, You can enable and disable any control without having to disconnect any cables:











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