Capturing with SVHS CVR causes more distortion?

[Spellbinder_Jack]

I did capture my tapes about 10 years ago with my regular VCR and PCI Canopus capture card. Now that i thought i might finally capture them properly with SVHS VCR, and i got my hands on Panasonic NV-FS200.

Capture card i'm using now is ATI HD Theater 750 USB on Windows 10. I did capture my Video8 tapes with it before. Software i'm using is iuVCR (I noticed it handles Sound&Video sync better than other software). I used AVS Video Recorder, but problem is still there. VirtualDub refuses to capture video for me, and i didn't find solution for it. I did turn on TBC. I did try capturing without it, but problem is still there.

VHS is labeled as PAL SECAM. I capture them with PAL_D preset, as other ones (including SECAMs) give black and white and distorted image.

Problem I have with this setup is that video i'm getting has some:

1) "Jumping" frames. Like frame that supposed to be earlier in video pops in. On some tapes it happened that i saw just color noise, then, when played that segment again i saw this "jumping frame", and third time i played this segment, it went all smooth. But on some tapes it happens persistently.

2) Horizontal distortions (jitter). Random horizontal lines, where pixels are shifted to the left or right a little. While they did present on some older captured files, they weren't that noticeable cause those captures were pretty blurry. Sometimes i couldn't see them at all on older captures, but on Panasonic they are pretty much visible and happen often.

3) Dropouts. They are horizontal too, look like white noise strips. It might be because i didn't clear video heads before capturing. They can occur, but other time i watch tape they are gone. But still they happen often. Sometimes they don't go and present at the same spot every time i watch it.

I did upload segment that i captured, same segment from previous capture and segment with TBC off (jumping frame still present, but few frames later).
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Am87w74ZKuE2jItv...RfS1w?e=AfafUX

So, my question is there a problem with VCR? Or my setup? Ways to fix these problems?

If no problem with VCR, i guess i can proceed with capturing, and clear it out later? As overall video looks sharper, and colors seem more natural.

Off topic: I noticed pink tint over sky in that segment. When deinterlaced it looks like pink flicker. Any way to filter it out?

[Bogilein]

What was the name of the canopus capture card?
You should try to use a panasonic dmr-es10 dvd recorder as tbc replacemnt to have a stable signal to the capture card.
If that doesn't help then try another vcr or use the canopus card. Not every vcr plays every tape well, and in your case the panasonic would be the wrong player.

[Spellbinder_Jack]

Well, i don't have access to that Canopus card right now, as well as the other VCR as they left in the other city. I did think about using another Panasonic with DVD as a pass by.. But that means more spending, more equipment As I understand DVD would help with "jumping frames" and other issues would remain. In this case maybe it's easier to cut out those frames in post.

[latreche34]

Your VCR could be aging and not delivering a clean timing signal therefore an external frame TBC is a must, the fact that it doesn't address the horizontal jitter even when the line TBC is on is a tell tale that it has problems, by the way I can't access your samples.

[Bogilein]

If you have read the forum here, you should know that there are only 2 ways to record analog material.

SVHS-VCR with TBC - external frame TBC - capture card

or

SVHS-VCR (TBC not necessary) - one of the recommended DVD-recorders as TBC replacement - capure card

and the only capture card I know that gives good results without external TBC is a Canopus/Edius NX capture card.

Therefore my question which model your Canopus card was.

I would definitely try the Panasonic DVD recorder in passthrough mode.

But you should not forget that the Panasonic FS200 is already 28 years old.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Your VCR could be aging and not delivering a clean timing signal therefore an external frame TBC is a must, the fact that it doesn't address the horizontal jitter even when the line TBC is on is a tell tale that it has problems, by the way I can't access your samples.

When I looked at the samples it was clearly correcting horizontal jitter well, but it seems to cause the capture card to lose track of the signal altogether occasionally instead. I think the solution is a TBC or DVD-recorder as mentioned.

I don't know what causes the dropouts to go both bright and dark. There is usually a trimpot on these that adjusts the level of the delayed signal used for dropout correction (and noise reduction) but I'm not sure if that being off would cause it to go in both directions. Something I have seen on at least 2 panasonics of this age is the brightness of the dropouts "lagging behind" a bit when going from a dark frame to a bright frame, maybe it's similar just more excessive in this case. I don't know if it's something inherent or if it's the result of bad components. In any case dropout correction is a bit mediocre on these older decks, so a tape with many large dropouts may work better on a newer VCR.

[Spellbinder_Jack]

Well, my main concern is the issue №2, cause a lot of those horizontal jitter/noise lines appear often, and it would be pain to clear it all in post. I wanted to figure out if it is a VCR problem or tape problem. So far it looks like it's VCR. I did test few more cassettes and did watch same segments few times and those horizontal occasional jitters did appear in the same place, but few seconds apart each time, sometimes going all smooth. If DVD recorder would help fight those then i gotta find one then.

[lordsmurf]

line TBC = fixes the visual image (stuff you see)
frame TBC = fixes the signal (stuff you don't see, but it still there)

You need both.

ES10/15 is not a TBC, crippled line TBC with mere non-TBC frame sync. It's TBC(ish), but not really by itself, until fortified by a DVK (weak frame TBC).

I didn't yet view the sample, but VCR alignment can also lead to jump frames, as the as tracking alignment is too close to the edge of being misaligned.

[latreche34]

Ok I was able to download your samples and the old capture is no good has flagging on top of the frame so I see your need to recapture. The sample without TBC has severe line jitter and I can see the line TBC fixed most of it. The frame jump is not VCR related although a better VCR can prevent it from happening, It's the capture card struggling to lock on the VBI signal, The ES15/10 could potentially eliminate it, the chroma though is not good, I don't know if it's VCR related or the tape or both, That requires another VCR to find out.

[Spellbinder_Jack]

Panasonics ES10/15 are possible to find, i did check it out. Also i saw example of how it works, and wasn't impressed much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsgmuQT4udE

I mean, yes it does correct jitter (as do my built in TBC), but occasional lines/streaks still appear in the video. Not sure it would help in my case. But might try it, as they are pretty cheap. I also noticed they tend to slightly change colors. I guess it's better to go with ES15.

As for full frame TBC they are way above my budget, though i found Kramer FC-400 for about 500$. Just i'm still not convinced they'll help to get rid of those horizontal lines, though might be helpful to correct occasional jitter.

[latreche34]

If the artifacts are baked in there is nothing you can do about it, TBC's (line or frame) are timing tinkerers they don't have and should not have any effect on the contents of a scan line/lines, They suppose to read the timing signals from a tape just like the capture card and if the tape is bad with weak timing signals they can try to fix them, Don't expect a TBC to make the picture pop because that's not its job and if it does it's defective.

[Spellbinder_Jack]

Okay, an update on a topic. I got a Canopus (Edius) NX card. Which i read has TBC'ish effect somewhat like Panasonic ES10/15. That card did help with "jumping frame" issue, though it didn't help to eliminate jitter. As for drop outs, they still happen from time to time. I turned TBC on FS200 on and off, didn't notice any difference.

I was advised to get either a new VCR, or try pass through DVD player to eliminate those jitter lines. Thus, I have following questions:

1. Would getting a DVD recorder help eliminate a jitter for my setup? If so, I'm leaning towards Toshiba RD-XS34, as it looked like it produces more clear image. But i would consider ES10/15 if there's a need for a stronger correction, just i can't determine if i need a stronger one. Can someone who used both help me on this topic?

Link to a captured video with jitter example: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Am87w74ZKuE2jJYs...CaeTw?e=Umfgje

2. If the above won't help, then i did browse available svhs VCRs in my area and found following:
-Panasonic NV-SV120 $
-Panasonic NV-SV121 $$
-Panasonic NV-HS800 $$
-Panasonic NV-HS-880 $
-Panasonic NV-HS1000 $$$
-Philips VR967 $

Of those listed above i lean towards Philips VR967. Because i read Panasonic NV-HS800 has same problems correcting dropouts.

[hodgey]

1. The ES10/15 (and at least for PAL, later panasonic models) can correct larger errors than NEC-based DVDrs like the toshiba, though PAL the panasonic tend to clip brights unless you manually reduce the video level before the video enters them. (I've seen one yt-comment that claimed this was fixed in some much later models, but I have not been able to confirm.)

I haven't used the xs34 in particular, but at least with the xs24, and with pioneer models that are based around similar ICs, they can have a bit more trouble when there is a lot of instability, like with say a camcorder tape recorded while driving in a car or boat or something, where you can get a bit of a wavy effect of the whole frame (the tbc in the HS1000 acts similarly, while the TBC in JVC decks tend to give vertical jitter instead). They are also a bit more prone to frame drops/inserts if there are issues at the top of the image. Both ought to help prevent the frames jumping out issue you had.

2. The NV-HS800 is the same as NV-HS1000 just without the TBC, so if you have long dropouts you may get white stripes from that one yeah.
The Philips model is one of their own design with their own mech, unlike their later SVHS decks which shared the internals with JVC decks. I don't know if these (presumably) philips-made vcrs had any NTSC variants, it seems most newer philips/magnavox vcrs sold in the US were funai vcrs (seems many 2000s philips PAL models are too tho, with some being JVC, and some combos being LG. They put the turbo drive badge on them regardless tho...). It actually uses the same luma video IC as the FS200 and HS800/HS1000, but I don't know if that means they handle dropouts in a similar manner as the internals are otherwise completely different.

The NV-SV120 and 121 are very late models, I think they are the same other than 121 having a TBC. Very little info on these otherwise.

I have a HS870, which has the same annoying thing with compensated dropouts as some JVC decks where the dropout-compensated lines veer off to one side (even when passed through and ES10) and look like they lack high-frequency details. Idk if they fixed this for the 880 which I think is the successor. (Note that these don't use the "digital process" digital video stuff that the 860/960 and 950 used.)
Interestingly side note TBC chip used in the 880 has "frame tbc" in the specs, but idk how it performs in practice.

toshiba TC90A88F used in nv-hs880.png

Ultimately dropouts are going to be noticeable in any case. Nearly all modern vcrs use the same method of masking them, inserting a video signal delayed by 1 line (the only exception I think are certain big bertha pro vcrs which could do some limited DOC by looking at previous frames). VCRs do differ a bit on how many lines they will replace before just outputting noise, and how well the compensated lines look.