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  #1  
02-23-2021, 12:44 AM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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although windows 10 is not ideal i've read that some have had success with it. this pc came with windows 10 so i figure i give that a try before going the windows xp route.

the ati 600 usb i got off ebay came with the original cd. i installed the windows vista drivers from there.

setup

panasonic dmr-es46v -> composite out -> ati 600 usb -> virtualdub -> avi

sample capture file is attached.

i was following this guide


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File Type: avi Output-9.avi (94.89 MB, 10 downloads)
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  #2  
02-23-2021, 07:59 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I'm unable to watch the video, but have you tried using the S-Video output? afaik that one goes through the internal digitizer which should help stabilize the video output. (the dvd-priority out composite output may do as well but not sure.)
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  #3  
02-23-2021, 08:03 AM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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unfortunately the dvd/vcr combo only has composite out for vhs. the s-video out is reserved for dvd.
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  #4  
02-23-2021, 08:20 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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I can't watch your video (using VLC) because you used the Huffyuv Multithreaded codec, which it does not support. Probably best to stick to regular Huffyuv for the broadest player compatibility.

Looks like you're not using a VCR with a TBC or an in-line frame TBC. Jitter is one of the things that TBCs fix. So you may want to pick up a Panasonic ES10/ES15 DVD recorder to pass the VCR's signal through en route to your ATI card. That will likely solve your jitter problem.

Last edited by bookemdano; 02-23-2021 at 08:34 AM.
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  #5  
02-23-2021, 08:36 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj View Post
unfortunately the dvd/vcr combo only has composite out for vhs. the s-video out is reserved for dvd.
Hm, the manual suggests it does at least, just that DVD-playback has priority on those outputs, but it could be wrong I suppose. Did you test it? If not, it's related to the mentioned Panasonic DMR-ES15, so it may work similarly and be able to fulfill a similar role to stabilize video from another vcr by passing it through it.
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  #6  
02-23-2021, 08:54 AM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Hm, the manual suggests it does at least, just that DVD-playback has priority on those outputs, but it could be wrong I suppose. Did you test it? If not, it's related to the mentioned Panasonic DMR-ES15, so it may work similarly and be able to fulfill a similar role to stabilize video from another vcr by passing it through it.
i tried s-video with the canopus advc 100 when i was going that route and it didn't work. only the composite out worked. i assumed it wouldn't work with the ati 600 usb but i'll give that a try.

read a post from lordsmurf that panasonic players are known to give problems without tbc. read another post from lordsmurf that the es10/15 are a so-so tbcs and might not fix the jitter problems. but the es10/15 route looks much cheaper than getting a true tbc like a datavideo tbc-1000.

i'll switch to regular huffyuv and try to get the s-video working and see if that helps.
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  #7  
02-23-2021, 02:54 PM
thomasmca123 thomasmca123 is offline
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Thanks for the replies. I am currently in the process of building a new PC, but that's dependant on me managing to get a graphics card in the current climate. I was planning on running Win10 on it, but perhaps opting for an older version e.g. Win8 might make a difference? Then I could always update later down the road. I've read that Win10 can be tempermental when it comes to video capture, so perhaps this would be my best option?

From what I've seen a TBC is relatively pricey so I'm hesitant to go down that road unless it's necessary. It looks like I could get an ES10 fairly cheap so I'd be more inclined to try that if I can't get things working on my new PC. How exactly would that work - could I just add it to the chain e.g. camcorder > composite > ES10 > S-Video + comp audio > capture card > PC?

Also, on that note, the camcorder supports S-Video, but I don't have an S-Video cable for it. In the first instance would trying S-Video from the camcorder to the capture card make a difference vs using composite video?
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  #8  
02-23-2021, 04:56 PM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasmca123 View Post
From what I've seen a TBC is relatively pricey so I'm hesitant to go down that road unless it's necessary. It looks like I could get an ES10 fairly cheap so I'd be more inclined to try that if I can't get things working on my new PC. How exactly would that work - could I just add it to the chain e.g. camcorder > composite > ES10 > S-Video + comp audio > capture card > PC?
this post from lordsmurf gives an overview the ES10 passthrough and this thread has some troubleshooting about the nuts and bolts of how to do the passthrough
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  #9  
02-23-2021, 05:02 PM
thomasmca123 thomasmca123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj View Post
this post from lordsmurf gives an overview the ES10 passthrough and this thread has some troubleshooting about the nuts and bolts of how to do the passthrough
Great, I'll look into this, thanks!
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  #10  
02-23-2021, 05:31 PM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Yes you should use S-Video wherever possible. Suitable cables can likely be found cheaply on ebay or amazon or maybe even places like flea markets or thrift stores.

I don't think there is any benefit of Windows 8 over Windows 10 for the purposes of capture. XP is best, followed by Windows 7. Since you're building a PC I assume it will be in a tower case. So it would be pretty trivial/cheap to pick up a second hard drive or SSD and dual boot Win7 (or Win XP if your motherboard supports it) just for capturing purposes.

Maybe your graphics card comment is in regards to wanting a high end one for gaming, which is understandable. But for doing video capture you can use a very basic GPU--there's no need for anything fancy.

TBCs are pricey indeed, and I think we're at the point where the additional quality they give over a Panasonic ES10/ES15 is hardly worth the cost. You can even look for an ES10/ES15 with a busted DVD drive, since you're only using it as a passthru to your capture card.
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  #11  
02-23-2021, 08:58 PM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post
I can't watch your video (using VLC) because you used the Huffyuv Multithreaded codec, which it does not support. Probably best to stick to regular Huffyuv for the broadest player compatibility.

Looks like you're not using a VCR with a TBC or an in-line frame TBC. Jitter is one of the things that TBCs fix. So you may want to pick up a Panasonic ES10/ES15 DVD recorder to pass the VCR's signal through en route to your ATI card. That will likely solve your jitter problem.
i can't figure out how to uninstall the huffyuv multithreaded codec. i tried the suggestions in this thread. i deleted the huffyuv file in c:\windows\system32. restarted. did the right-click install of the regular huffyuv but the multithreaded codec is the only one that shows up in virtualdub.

i tried disabling it with mmview but that didn't work either. i tried deleting virtual dub and extracting a fresh copy. that didn't work. it remembered all my settings. i didn't install ffdshow. seems like that adds unnecessary codecs.

i can't play the video in vlc either but i can play it in virtualdub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Hm, the manual suggests it does at least, just that DVD-playback has priority on those outputs, but it could be wrong I suppose. Did you test it? If not, it's related to the mentioned Panasonic DMR-ES15, so it may work similarly and be able to fulfill a similar role to stabilize video from another vcr by passing it through it.
s-video works! guess that was just an issue with the canopus advc 100. but it didn't fix my jitter problem. looks like i'll have to get some sort of tbc. s-video capture attached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post
TBCs are pricey indeed, and I think we're at the point where the additional quality they give over a Panasonic ES10/ES15 is hardly worth the cost. You can even look for an ES10/ES15 with a busted DVD drive, since you're only using it as a passthru to your capture card.
i interpreted lordsmurf's post as saying there's a considerable difference. but given the difference in price, i'll be trying the es10/15 passthru first before taking out a second morgage for that tbc.


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File Type: avi Output-10.avi (97.07 MB, 3 downloads)
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  #12  
02-23-2021, 09:44 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj View Post
although windows 10 is not ideal i've read that some have had success with it.
Correct. Problems, but workarounds. Usually. Maybe.

Quote:
sample capture file is attached.
Why are you using Huffyuv MT? I don't even have that installed anymore. Too many issues, didn't work for capture. (So can't see the sample.) AVI isn't needed here anyway. Compress H.264 or MPEG would suffice for this sort of sample.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post
Looks like you're not using a VCR with a TBC or an in-line frame TBC. Jitter is one of the things that TBCs fix. So you may want to pick up a Panasonic ES10/ES15 DVD recorder to pass the VCR's signal through en route to your ATI card. That will likely solve your jitter problem.
Minimum requirement here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj View Post
read a post from lordsmurf that panasonic players are known to give problems without tbc.
Huh? All VCRs output junk signals, inherent to the format, and need time base correction for capture. Not just Panasonic, but JVC and otherwise. All VCRs. Line TBC just corrects the visuals, frame TBC corrects the signal.

Quote:
read another post from lordsmurf that the es10/15 are a so-so tbcs and might not fix the jitter problems.
No. ES10/15 fixes visuals, as it has crippled+strong line TBC, and non-TBC frame sync. Sometimes that suffices, sometimes not, about 50/50. You do get the ES10/15 downsides, of posterization, agreesive NR even when "off' (more like hi/lo, not on/off), and standard Panasonic luma mucking (worse for PAL). It's not a TBC, not a TBC replacement. It's sort-of TBC(ish), but lack of frame TBC still ideally needs a weak frame like the DataVideo DVK after it in the workflow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasmca123 View Post
e.g. Win8 might make a difference?
Wi7 or WinXP.
8 is mostly 10, blah, problems, just not as bad as 10.

Quote:
I've read that Win10 can be tempermental
Like a teenage girl.

Quote:
It looks like I could get an ES10 fairly cheap
Tips:
- remote is required
- clean unit with alcohol when you get it, you'll be shocked at how nasty consumer items are, and the remote and power cord are always filthiest
- consumer gear was NOT cared for, prepare yourself for POS that may not work "tested" and "working" as described

Quote:
. camcorder > composite > ES10 > S-Video + comp audio > capture card > PC?
Essentially.
camera> ES10/15 > capture card
Route audio into ES10/15, there can be lag/delay/sync issues otherwise.
Switching composite<>s-video midstream is often bad, but try it.

Quote:
Also, on that note, the camcorder supports S-Video, but I don't have an S-Video cable for it.
Amazon, about $5.

Quote:
In the first instance would trying S-Video from the camcorder to the capture card make a difference vs using composite video?
Quality boost, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post
maybe even places like flea markets or thrift stores.
Not really. s-video cables are often thin, fail, can have noise issues. I throw away several s-video cables annually. Stuff like Monster is junk. The best cables I have were free with my DataVideo TBCs and JVC VCRs when new.

Quote:
TBCs are pricey indeed, and I think we're at the point where the additional quality they give over a Panasonic ES10/ES15 is hardly worth the cost.
No. ES10/15 is not a TBC, and has quality-hit drawbacks. Sometimes you can suffer through it as preference, sometimes the tape balks at it. The original intention of the ES10/15 was anti-tearing, ie the strong line TBC -- but it's crippled for anti-copy, which mimics natural errors, so fails at both. It was some years later that it became a poor man's TBC, but even then, not really. It wasn't until I found weak frames TBCs, where the ES10/15 acts a pre-processor, that we got to 99% TBC(ish). That works well, flawless, like a TBC, but still with quality hits.

Quote:
You can even look for an ES10/ES15 with a busted DVD drive
Not always. 000000 errors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj View Post
i can't figure out how to uninstall the huffyuv multithreaded codec
I don't remember how. Too long ago. I'm sure it's documented in the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegrassdj View Post
i interpreted lordsmurf's post as saying there's a considerable difference.
Correct.

Quote:
but given the difference in price, i'll be trying the es10/15 passthru first
Go for it. Look for improvements, observe negatives. May or may not work, not 99% effective alone as-is.

Quote:
before taking out a second morgage for that tbc.
Not that high ... yet.

I recently saw a "for parts of repair" TBC on eBay for $1k+ tax/shipping.
$1k.
For a broken unit, doesn't work. No returns, as-is.
And it sold.
WTF?

Just FYI, TBC-1000s can be lemons. That even includes the "tested" and "working" units. Half of those people don't even know what the letters "TBC" stand for. I'm not joking.

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  #13  
02-24-2021, 07:24 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Hm, I looked at the sample now, it's an very odd error, and it happens in the same way in both samples, even though in the latter one the internal digitizer seems to be stabilizing things otherwise. It's possible it's some software or driver issue as well. Did you try with a different codec?


Converted the samples to 4:2:2 h.264 in case anyone else knows what this sort of error is, it doesn't look like the type of effect you get when the capture card loses sync.


Attached Files
File Type: avi Output-10.avi (34.18 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: avi Output-9.avi (32.17 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #14  
02-24-2021, 07:54 AM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Hm, I looked at the sample now, it's an very odd error, and it happens in the same way in both samples, even though in the latter one the internal digitizer seems to be stabilizing things otherwise. It's possible it's some software or driver issue as well. Did you try with a different codec?


Converted the samples to 4:2:2 h.264 in case anyone else knows what this sort of error is, it doesn't look like the type of effect you get when the capture card loses sync.
i wasn't able to figure out how to remove the huffyuv multithreaded codec from virtualdub and replace it with the regular one. i think i'd have to figure out how to change the registry entries or something like that.

i'm going to install windows xp and start over with the regular huffyuv codec. hopefully that fixes errors. but it seems picking up a real tbc may be in my future. zoinks!

i discovered that most of the vhs tapes in my collection were played maybe once or twice, if at all and are relatively clean. i hoped because of that i wouldn't need a tbc.
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  #15  
02-24-2021, 08:11 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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If you have issues with huffyuv, you could also try with lagarith or utvideo instead.
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  #16  
02-26-2021, 02:31 AM
bluegrassdj bluegrassdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
If you have issues with huffyuv, you could also try with lagarith or utvideo instead.
still getting the jittery video with those codecs. thanks for the suggestion though.

it seems hp has removed the legacy boot mode that allows usb/cd installaion of windows xp. only the newer uefi is available.

i started a thread over at r/windowsxp and it looks like i'd have to do considerable work figuring out how to put in a bios that supports legacy boot in order to install the os.

i got this new machine because i figured a new machine would be really good hardware for the vhs captures. but i'm starting to think it might be better to just get a pc with windows xp already on it. the prices on ebay aren't so bad.


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File Type: avi Output-11-Lagarith.avi (43.26 MB, 0 downloads)
File Type: avi Output-12-UT-Video-YUV422-B-601-VCM.avi (43.34 MB, 0 downloads)
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