How to capture VHS generation loss? With no low frame rates?

[Glitchy Windows 3.1]

With a forum dedicated to achieving the highest quality of video from a VCR using a capture device, it may come up as weird that someone would want to intentionally degrade the video signal and try to capture it. Nevertheless, that is what I am trying to achieve which is trying to capture VHS generation loss (copying a VHS tape onto another VHS tape and repeating the process, here is a video on how it looks like for this who do not know what it is https://youtu.be/BoAHQM9coU8). Now to the equipment I use to do this is a

• Toshiba SD-V296
• Orion VR0220
• Pinnacle 510 USB (Pinnacle 510 8230-10028-61)
• Regular Windows 7 laptop

Upon using this equipment I was able to produce this (see attachment: Local on the 58) And as you might notice it drops in frame rate most of the time which is something I do not want and is not apparent in videos like these (https://youtu.be/TShEKABYBVg?t=284)

Now the uploader of that video mentions he uses

• Sony SLV-N81 VCR (recording and playback)
• Sony SLV-775HF VCR (playing for purposes of copying)
• Sony T120 Premium Grade High Durability tape (even number generations)
• TDK Premium Quality HS Tape (odd number generations)
• Canopus ADVC110 (digital to analog transfer)
• Dazzle DVC100 (HU3194, analog to digital transfer)

Now I suspect that some will say along the lines that the VCRs mentioned do not produce a good signal and it needs a Time Base Corrector in order to produce a better video signal. Or that just using a VCR and a capture card isn't going to magically output the best video signal. Which may be true, however, TBCs are expensive and if I get one will it:

Try to correct the horrible video signal produced by the copying process of a VHS tape onto another?
or
Will it leave the tracking errors as is and just make sure the video does not drop in frame rate from the TBC to the capturing device?

(Essentially I want to achieve leaving as much mess of tracking errors, if you will, whilst also not having low frame rates)

Another thing I would want to add is that the person who uses two Sony VCRs and does not appear to use a TBC nor could I find those VCRs having a built in TBC (I could be wrong on this). Is it that it just outputs a better signal compared to the Toshiba and Orion VCRs that I have? Or is the capturing device that he uses better than the Pinnacle 510 that I currently have?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

With a forum dedicated to achieving the highest quality of video from a VCR using a capture device, it may come up as weird that someone would want to intentionally degrade the video signal

Not really.

In order to do a good job of degrading, you need to understand the fundamentals of what causes noise. While most here will want to use that knowledge to correct the video, I see no reason why an artistic project using the same basic knowledge is any less valid.

I've simulated errors before, to illustrate issues. Same concept.

Quote:

Upon using this equipment I was able to produce this (see attachment: Local on the 58)

That looks terrible. Congrats.

And yet, I've seen similar nth gen tapes for decades. Unwatchable, cannot be restored.

Quote:

And as you might notice it drops in frame rate most of the time which is something I do not want

Strong frame TBC required, DataVideo suggested.

Frame sync TBCs correct the signal, not the visuals. What you're seeing is not something a TBC will fix. In fact, a TBC can make awful nth gen timing errors worse. Frame TBCs allow snow to be recorded with no dropped frames.

Certain errors cause skew and line loss on the first image lines of the image. TBCs sometimes rebuild those well enough that the mild jitter goes away. Line TBCs usually make those worse, get confused. Tearing is a pervasive error that can be fixed with field TBCs, or a strong line like ES10/15 (which is also crippled).

I think a true frame TBC will correct what you want, and NOT correct what you don't want.

I wish TBCs did more, and you want them to do less. Ironic. But we both know the limitations of the device, and use it as needed for our projects, different/opposite as they may be.

Quote:

Sony SLV-N81 VCR (recording and playback)
Sony SLV-775HF VCR (playing for purposes of copying)

There are worse VCRs, if he truly wants a crappy output.

Quote:

Sony T120 Premium Grade High Durability tape (even number generations)
TDK Premium Quality HS Tape (odd number generations)

Every time you reuse a tape, the signal is damaged. Flying erase heads make it less so, but still bad.

Quote:

Canopus ADVC110 (digital to analog transfer)
Dazzle DVC100 (HU3194, analog to digital transfer)

This has nothing to do with analog. It's a digital loss, Both are really crappy devices. The Dazzle has values, contrast, exposure, sharpness issues. The DV box ruins the color quality, with a loss of 50%. Much of his "loss" jas nothing to do with the tape, and everything to do with these cards.

[Glitchy Windows 3.1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

That looks terrible. Congrats.

Haha thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Strong frame TBC required, DataVideo suggested.

Frame sync TBCs correct the signal, not the visuals. What you're seeing is not something a TBC will fix. In fact, a TBC can make awful nth gen timing errors worse. Frame TBCs allow snow to be recorded with no dropped frames.

Ah yes, I heard about those, they are very expensive and it might take a year to even muster up that kind of money haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I think a true frame TBC will correct what you want, and NOT correct what you don't want.

I see, well it seems like im going to have to create a separate jar to put a few bucks every time I get paid to get eventually be able to have enough to buy one

Also I do not know if you are aware of this method (most likely are). But there are some people who instead of using a analog to digital capture device like a lot of people do here, they use a AV to HDMI converter and then a game capture card (captures of an hdmi signal essentially). A popular one I did notice was the Elgato capture card. Essentially its the same process but they convert it to hdmi before they capture it. (Like this fellow right here

However, it doesn't seem like it is a preferable method but I could be wrong.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitchy Windows 3.1

But there are some people who instead of using a analog to digital capture device like a lot of people do here, they use a AV to HDMI converter and then a game capture card (captures of an hdmi signal essentially).
(Like this fellow right here

That method is bunk. It does NOT whatsoever remove need for TBC, and merely bakes in problems. It's no better than an Easycap, or any other crummy method is Chinese knockoff products.