Quantcast Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k good? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
03-28-2021, 11:24 AM
Uraz88 Uraz88 is offline
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Hello
Just need a suggestion about the Blackmagic Intensity pro 4k capture card
Is good for transfer vhs to digital?
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  #2  
03-28-2021, 11:25 AM
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For SD videotapes, no.
For HD sources, probably.

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  #3  
03-28-2021, 11:30 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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If you use a DVD Recorder with HDMI out and the HDMI in (you'll need an HDMI splitter to remove the hdcp protection). Yes.
If you will use the anolg inputs (Composite, Y/C) No.
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  #4  
03-28-2021, 11:36 AM
Uraz88 Uraz88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you use a DVD Recorder with HDMI out and the HDMI in (you'll need an HDMI splitter to remove the hdcp protection). Yes.
If you will use the anolg inputs (Composite, Y/C) No.
I was going to use s-video anyway
Not good?
So maybe the best way is doing svhs—dvd recorder (es10)——Jvc dvd recorder for burn disc (dr-m10) totally in svideo
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  #5  
03-28-2021, 12:08 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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SVHSVCR-DVD recorder with HDMI out for example Panasonic EH-65/495......Sony/Pioneer.....(which one depends on your tapes)-HDMI out(you just grab the digital stream and saves you the digital to analog conversation for the outputs)-Blackmagic HDMI in as 720x576i uncompressed YUV2 File. Cut, edit & restore with Virtual Dub/Avisynth. Encode with Hybrid to mp4/mkv. Done.
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  #6  
03-28-2021, 12:14 PM
Uraz88 Uraz88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
SVHSVCR-DVD recorder with HDMI out for example Panasonic EH-65/495......Sony/Pioneer.....(which one depends on your tapes)-HDMI out(you just grab the digital stream and saves you the digital to analog conversation for the outputs)-Blackmagic HDMI in as 720x576i uncompressed YUV2 File. Cut, edit & restore with Virtual Dub/Avisynth. Encode with Hybrid to mp4/mkv. Done.
Ok thank you my friend
Soon i get the SVHS-DVD called Dmr-E75v
Maybe i can try this with the blackmagic intensity pro 4k using only svideo cable?or composite?
I tought the hdmi connection destroy or make worse the analog signal from vhs tapes thats why..
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  #7  
03-28-2021, 12:35 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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The Panasonic DMR-E75V is a VHS/DVD/HDD Recorder. It isn't a SVHS Drive.
I think the internal analog signal from the vhs tape is digitized in the recorder and the video output is then stable. The ES10 will then not be able to perform miracles. If you are lucky the e75v has the same performance as the es10 if not your errors are baked into the video and nothing helps.
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  #8  
03-28-2021, 12:44 PM
Uraz88 Uraz88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The Panasonic DMR-E75V is a VHS/DVD/HDD Recorder. It isn't a SVHS Drive.
I think the internal analog signal from the vhs tape is digitized in the recorder and the video output is then stable. The ES10 will then not be able to perform miracles. If you are lucky the e75v has the same performance as the es10 if not your errors are baked into the video and nothing helps.
Thanks
I got that e75v for a test and didn’t paid anything
About the svhs high end i was plan to get the panasonic Nv-Hs960
Looks interesting and good
I had the fs200 but i was totally disappointed and returned it
Playback quality was bad..as low resolution..maybe some bad capacitor etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you use a DVD Recorder with HDMI out and the HDMI in (you'll need an HDMI splitter to remove the hdcp protection). Yes.
If you will use the anolg inputs (Composite, Y/C) No.
Can you link me some example of a good HDMI SPLITTER that remove the hdcp protection?
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  #9  
03-29-2021, 01:48 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Why would you spend $300 on intensity that needs a $1600 TBC when you can get a USB capture device from the 2010's for around $30 and you can get away with just the line TBC inside the VCR or an external stabilizer such as a DVD recorder.

--edited--

First I though you were talking about the shuttle, then read the thread again where I see a card, Some VH members had good results with it, may require some stabilization though.
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  #10  
03-29-2021, 01:50 PM
Uraz88 Uraz88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Why would you spend $300 on intensity that needs a $1600 TBC when you can get a USB capture device from the 2010's for around $30 and you can get away with just the line TBC inside the VCR or an external stabilizer such as a DVD recorder.
is a joke? xD

buying a crap usb capture card of 30$?
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  #11  
03-29-2021, 01:54 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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No Pinnacle is not a joke, Those cannot be had new, only second hand. I edited my post anyway since I was talking about the shuttle. Still a USB capture device such as Pinnacle beats the crap out of that HD/4K card, They are made to stream HDMI, If you use the HDMI port you are doing the capturing inside the ADC of the DVD recorder, The card becomes just a digital interface, so save your money and buy an analog capture card/device.
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  #12  
03-29-2021, 02:03 PM
Uraz88 Uraz88 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
No Pinnacle is not a joke, Those cannot be had new, only second hand. I edited my post anyway since I was talking about the shuttle. Still a USB capture device such as Pinnacle beats the crap out of that HD/4K card, They are made to stream HDMI, If you use the HDMI port you are doing the capturing inside the ADC of the DVD recorder, The card becomes just a digital interface, so save your money and buy an analog capture card/device.
i will check it out thanks
what model is exactly of pinnacle?
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  #13  
03-29-2021, 02:21 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
If you use the HDMI port you are doing the capturing inside the ADC of the DVD recorder, The card becomes just a digital interface.
that means you recommend im not to use a dvd recorder now?
If he uses the analog outputs of the DVD recorder, the adc is also used internally. Then he needs an external tbc. Good luck finding one.
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  #14  
03-29-2021, 02:54 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
that means you recommend im not to use a dvd recorder now?
If he uses the analog outputs of the DVD recorder, the adc is also used internally. Then he needs an external tbc. Good luck finding one.
A DVD recorder as a passthrough and an analog capture card/device that doesn't bake in all the artifacts like the HDMI streaming card.
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  #15  
03-29-2021, 03:24 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Which streaming artifacts you're talking about? Can you show me a sample?
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  #16  
03-29-2021, 04:57 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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No I don't use such workflow, therefore I don't have a sample. Just browse this forum and VH forum for HDMI capture disappointment threads.
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  #17  
03-30-2021, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uraz88 View Post
Blackmagic Intensity pro 4k capture card
Is good for transfer vhs to digital?
No.

It drops frames, even with TBC, and doesn't report the drops. The unit if horrible at consumer source SD, it's a poor afterthought feature. Blackmagic techs confirmed this themselves in past years, pro sources were the expected ingest formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you use a DVD Recorder with HDMI out and the HDMI in (you'll need an HDMI splitter to remove the hdcp protection).
A DVD recorder is not an HD source, regardless of HDMI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uraz88 View Post
So maybe the best way is doing svhs—dvd recorder (es10)——Jvc dvd recorder for burn disc (dr-m10) totally in svideo
That is a decent setup.

Just realize the ES10 is not a TBC, does not replace a frame TBC. Depending on the S-VHS line TBC, the ES10 may be redundant here. However, problems are still likely, depending on source, because still no frame TBC. DVD recorders expected TV source, when using no TBCs, not VHS/videotape input. The JVC does have a frame sync on input, but it doesn't correct anything (ie, not frame sync TBC), merely bakes it in if errors present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
SVHSVCR-DVD recorder with HDMI out for example Panasonic EH-65/495......Sony/Pioneer.....(which one depends on your tapes)-HDMI out(you just grab the digital stream and saves you the digital to analog conversation for the outputs)-Blackmagic HDMI in as 720x576i uncompressed YUV2 File. Cut, edit & restore with Virtual Dub/Avisynth. Encode with Hybrid to mp4/mkv. Done.
You need to be careful with advice on HDMI or component usage. Almost all recorders process the video in undesired ways, be it deinterlace or scaling. This is especially an issue with NTSC units, though still present for PAL units. I've yet to come across an NTSC deck that didn't butcher the SD signal when it was run through component and HDMI. While I generally like clever "not as intended" uses of items, this one often disappoints, not viable.

For something like this, I think precise model numbers of ALL items in the workflow is required. Not general advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uraz88 View Post
Ok thank you my friend
Soon i get the SVHS-DVD called Dmr-E75v
Maybe i can try this with the blackmagic intensity pro 4k using only svideo cable?or composite?
I would advise against it.

Quote:
I tought the hdmi connection destroy or make worse the analog signal from vhs tapes thats why..
This is the problem, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The Panasonic DMR-E75V is a VHS/DVD/HDD Recorder. It isn't a SVHS Drive.
I think the internal analog signal from the vhs tape is digitized in the recorder and the video output is then stable.
This is the problems. Lots of DVD recorders, and combo VHS/DVD units, internally downgrade the signal quality. Not just running it over composite internally, but screwing with the image values (contrast, sharpness, color saturation, etc). The re-output signal is far removed from the actual quality founud on the source tape. It's molested.

Quote:
The ES10 will then not be able to perform miracles.
It won't be able to perform anything at all (visually) if another DVD recorder has run it through the non-TBC frame sync.

Quote:
If you are lucky the e75v has the same performance as the es10 if not your errors are baked into the video and nothing helps.
I'm not aware of that being the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Why would you spend $300 on intensity that needs a $1600 TBC when you can get a USB capture device from the 2010's for around $30 and you can get away with just the line TBC inside the VCR or an external stabilizer such as a DVD recorder.
These kinds of posts really irk me. (This rant isn't aimed at your personally.)

Why do you think I use frame TBCs then? For fun?
Because boring expensive heat-generating boxes on my desk isn't my idea of fun. It's a required tool for the task of converting video.

Nobody likes buying TBCs, but the same is true of lawnmowers or washing machines. Expensive, boring, loud. But those are essential tools for DIY tasks we want to do ourselves.

- If you don't want a TBC, pay somebody else to do your video conversion.
- No lawnmower, pay a lawn service.
- No washing machines, go to the laundromat (or pay a laundry service).

Having no TBC is like cutting the lawn with scissors, or washing your clothes in a bucket of water (then hang drying).

In terms of the $30 capture card ... if you get lucky. Most sub-$50 cards are outright crap. The better USB cards are usually in the $100-200 range. Sometimes you can find good prices in the sub-$100 range, usually for cards that had $100 MSRP years ago. Some have risen in value, some slightly sank (OS obsolosence).

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
No Pinnacle is not a joke, ... Still a USB capture device such as Pinnacle beats the crap out of that HD/4K card,
Yes, but ...
Pinnacle is just a brand. Pinnacle had many terrible cards. In fact, I'd say most were terrible cards. However, a few were quite decent. However again, Pinnacle had a bad habit of recycling model names and numbers, production changes (for longer life cards), revisions, and sub-revisions. So it's not as easy as buying random model name/number card. I often find myself cracking open cards to verify the internal chipsets.

Quote:
They are made to stream HDMI, If you use the HDMI port you are doing the capturing inside the ADC of the DVD recorder, The card becomes just a digital interface, so save your money and buy an analog capture card/device.
Yep!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Then he needs an external tbc. Good luck finding one.
I exhaustively hunt for TBCs, and provide those in the marketplace when available. Anybody that ever needs a TBC should check the marketplace, or PM me. It is getting harder to locate TBCs, but not yet impossible. (That will be sad day, if it ever comes to that, but I'm doing all I can to make sure that never happens.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
A DVD recorder as a passthrough and an analog capture card/device that doesn't bake in all the artifacts like the HDMI streaming card.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Which streaming artifacts you're talking about? Can you show me a sample?
Which recorder?
The most common are:
- aggressive NR that cannot be turned off (even if an "off" setting exists)
- messing with luma gain, an issue you've seen yourself
- posterization, aka color palette compression that results in banding (easiest to see in dark movies like 1989 Batman)

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
No I don't use such workflow, therefore I don't have a sample. Just browse this forum and VH forum for HDMI capture disappointment threads.
Disappoint threads. Good description.

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  #18  
03-30-2021, 10:40 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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I ran a number of tests on an Intensity Pro 4K (IP4K) a few years ago. These were tests of ability to capture output of signal generators and camcorder analog output streams of color bars (composite, s-video and component formats), as well as HDMI captures. I tried both NTSC SD and 1080i streams. (These were NOT from SD analog VHS/S-VHS/Video8,Hi-8 VCR analog output stream.) I also tested an original Intensity Pro (IP).

I used SMPTE color bars, and evaluated the captured files using the waveform and vector tools in Edius 8/9 Workgroup NLE.

In summary:
HDMI capture was fine as expected, provided copy protection was not an issue.
The composite and s-video captured file levels of both SD and HD were within 2 IRE or better of expected for all bars and areas.
The Component captures with the IP4K were totally unusable; the original IP was much better, but not as quite good as its s-video capture.

The problem is said to be in the firmware. I understand that BMD has no plans to fix it, although they released other firmware updates over the past ~6 years.

I do not used the IP4K for analog capture, I have used the original IP with success. I have not encountered an issue with dropped frames, but my source tapes are generally in good condition and were shot with a limited range of camcorders that were in good condition. YMMV. A separate issue may be whether or not you can use the Intensity Pro series to produce files in the codec with which you want to work.
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  #19  
04-04-2021, 05:03 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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I am really speechless and disappointed what here 2 of the advanced and actually accepted users give of themselves. Big words without sound knowledge. Just simple blah blah blah. I have heard, I have read. Much from the realm of legends and myths. None of you have tried it. As a self-proclaimed professional video forum, I would have liked to see that one makes the effort here once to test this and compare with their own capture. The result uploaded and pointed out the errors or weak points. But unfortunately there are no examples of the users experienced here. It's more I tell you or it's not good because I do not like the brand or this has also never brought out anything reasonable. You throw everything into a garbage can and claim that your own recommended hardware is the best without ever having tested another one yourself. Basically it's more of a moderated sales platform instead of a video forum.

Every week someone here opens a new post about capturing analog tapes and as always wants the best possible result. If the lord would recommend his toaster most people would believe that too. Most beginners don't know what to look for to detect errors and don't have the hardware to make and compare different captures. I have mentioned elsewhere that the advanced users use different ways. If you also read that a few dropped and inserted frames are accepted in the capture then maybe I am in the wrong video forum.

So and now to the Blackmagic Intensity (Shuttle). Have now once read through the contributions on Videohelp. It is always the same. Wrong application and capturing via the analog inputs. It should be known by now that the analog inputs of the Intensity are actually not suitable for direct recording from a video recorder. That's why the detour via HDMI. One taps the digital signal of the DVD recorder. If the ES10 had an HDMI output, you could also tap the digital stream here. The digital stream is picked up in 720x576i for PAL before it is converted back to analog for the analog outputs. There is no upscaling or downscaling or whatever as was claimed here and also shows the cluelessness. It is the same stream as the analog outputs only that one has just saved the conversion to analog. The whole thing is then stored uncompressed as YUV 4:2:2 avi. Most other HDMI boxes save in MP4. That is why they are not suitable as a capture solution.

Everyone who uses a DVD recorder as a TBC replacement, and there are many, should try this way if they have the possibility, even if it is presented differently here in the forum.
I can upload a few samples for the Lord and Mr. Latreche34 and they can then give their unbiased judgment before they just talk bad again without having tested it themselves.
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  #20  
04-04-2021, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
The result uploaded and pointed out the errors or weak points. But unfortunately there are no examples of the users experienced here. It's more I tell you or it's not good because
I don't have the time, between health, and trying to do actually do video. (Sometimes simply typing is a chore: Adventures in typing: lordsmurf unfiltered.) So I give the summary results. Many others, who do have the time, can corroborate my findings. And it's happened many, many times in the past decades. Decades, plural.

When my findings conflict with others, it's often because
(1) production changes,
(2) the other person has more limited usage than the wide array of sources I can beat down the card/VCR/etc with.
(3) my findings were wrong -- which doesn't happen often, because I'm detailed and meticulous, not rushed or knee-jerk

Quote:
without ever having tested another one yourself.
I've used far more devices than I discuss. In some cases, I'm not taking the time to detail the finer points of crap, because it's a waste of time. I want to discuss better gear.

Quote:
would recommend his toaster
But, but ... my toaster has a TBC! (A joke I often make, because "TBC" is such an abused term.)

Quote:
Most beginners don't know what to look for to detect errors and don't have the hardware to make and compare different captures.
Members are encouraged to upload samples clips when they're not sure.

Quote:
a few dropped and inserted frames are accepted in the capture
Sometimes it has to be. Even with TBC, dropped frames can happen on horrid tapes. But I specialize in signal restoration, and see some of the worst videos. Which is also why I can so easily see the breaking points of hardware. Some gear slices through bad video like butter, while others choke. When gear chokes, it's often brand-wide, because devices share chips. It's only when devices are outliers, as we have (for example) with some Pinnacle and Hauppauge USB capture cards.

Quote:
So and now to the Blackmagic Intensity (Shuttle).
That's why the detour via HDMI. One taps the digital signal of the DVD recorder.
The issue is the workflow, which is complicated by PAL/NTSC. There seem to be some viable paths with PAL equipment, but you're never actually laid those out, with specific models. With NTSC, DVD recorders tend to screw with the signal for HDMI/component output. Another complicated is internal processing, which is often shunted through composite internally, and has standard consumerist issues baked in (fake sharp, over-contrast, etc). You weren't the first to see a possible path forward here. I tried stuff like this over a decade ago, and it was a road to nowhere in my tests, with NTSC DVD recorders.

Quote:
Everyone who uses a DVD recorder as a TBC replacement, and there are many, should try this way if they have the possibility, even if it is presented differently here in the forum.
But again, a DVD recorder is not a TBC replacement, and has a fail rate. It's poor man's TBC attempt, referring to ES10/15 here, merging strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync. There are side effects to this, be it posterizatino/banding, typical Panasonic luma monkeying, etc.
- If the quality hit doesn't bother you, fine.
- If you want to run as many videos as you can this way, and outsource those % failed, fine.

The more ideal TBC(ish) is the ES10/15 + DataVideo DVK units (chroma keyer with weak frame TBC that needs line pre-processing). Or the TBC-5000, which is costly but similar. For whatever reason, DataVideo TBCs took a steep nosedive in quality with the "blue case" generation, touchy things. If the JVC line TBCs were stronger, DVK alone would be enough. The Panasonic field can be stronger, DVK has less fail rate alone, but still a rate. All sorts of errors happen, none of them pretty. But be very sure to use the right in/out, proper setup, and some need minor modifications to act as TBC alone.

Quote:
I can upload a few samples for the Lord and Mr. Latreche34 and they can then give their unbiased judgment
Please do.

You seem angry. Don't be. You make some good posts, stuff about PAL that I wasn't aware of.

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