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  #21  
08-11-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
So what alternative is left? A weak DVK?
The weak DVK chases the ES10/15 to provide frame correction. The DVK alone chokes on consumer tapes, and was designed for studio work (mixed digital+analog camera work). The ES10/15 alone lacks frame corrections, and the ES10/15 output is still often too unstable and signal-noisy for stable quality capturing. This is easy to see with something like BM cards, which still inject black/null frames, even with ES10/15.

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AVT-8710? I see you still recommend it these days for reasons I don't understand. It is absolute garbage, not only does it introduce freezing and ghosting on even good sources
You're confusing the black AVT-8710, which has the freezing issues you're describing, and has never been recommended, with the green AVT-8710, which has none of those problems.

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but also completely alters color via proc amp that cannot be disabled.
Not correct. AVT-8710 proc amp is essentially unity when not altered. Now then, the AVT-8710 and TBC-1000 can both interpret input values differently. Anything that processed video can, and will, do that to some %. But it's the TBC-1000 that has more variations, not the AVT-8710.

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I have owned both the AVT and the Cypress variant and they perform just the same.
AVT is rebadged Cypress, you used the same TBC twice.

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Perhaps early 2000s models did have a good chip,
Correct, circa 2003-2008. There was a break of 1-2 years, and everything manufactured in the 2010s had flawed chipsets.

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It is a quite a shame that ES10, one of the best pieces of hardware for analog capture is entirely dismissed on here as "crippled" when both axes of TBC outperform the majority of options.
It is crippled, due to forced Macrovision detection. Anti-copy is just an artificial video error, and natural errors can look the same. Thus it chokes on "Macrovision" where none exists. There's not a visible on-screen message that says "MACROVISION DETECTED, WEE WAH WEE WAH, THE VIDEO POLICE HAVE BEEN DISPATCHED TO YOUR LOCATION!" No, what happens most often is you get nasty luma errors. This is really easy to see with JVC NTSC S-VHS VCRs, with the blue screen menu turned on. Every single time, the AGC kicks in on the non-true-NTSC menu, and you get this flash as it cycles low to high luma.

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It's ironic you recommend JVC VCRs for their line TBC - which does have truly destructive NR that can't be disabled - but yet ES10 is too much somehow.
The ES10/15 NR is far stronger than the JVC, which is both good and bad. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. When you have tearing, it's awesome, a magic fix. When you source is master VHS without issues, it makes quality worse.

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It's not a matter of entitlement, it is simply that I have seen you make these claims for about 10 years now but never seen you actually back them up with hard evidence. Even when others do the proper testing and show it is not the case. ES10 was extensively tested on German doom9 forum and this would have certainly been a topic of interest if it was such an issue.
No, it's entitlement. "I demand you prove ___."

Again, I give findings, not raw data, because I don't always have the time to take screen caps and clips. I'm actually using my gear, not sitting around testing it. I'm not one of those people that stares at test patterns all day. I do, however, try to give enough written info so you can recreate the scenarios. And many people have done just that, seen the same issues.

I've yet to see a test that lacked variables. Posterization, for example, varies greatly on sources, from almost imperceptible (unless you're looking for it), to unacceptable artifacts. What I've always seen is people try to use test patterns, retail tapes, etc, and that's neither typical source, nor a useful real-world test.

German Doom9 doesn't use NTSC equipment, where it's easier to see than PAL.

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but rather that some degree of NR is typically inherent to line TBCs in general.
Correct.

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Some aspects of the image are indeed altered, namely hiding tape degradation in the form of streaks / comets etc.
The ES10? The DOC isn't really any different than JVC with-TBC models here. Both are fine.

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Well in terms of "budget limits" I think that anyone who is simply looking to stabilize their own collection of home videos would have to be either wealthy or insane to spend thousands of dollars on a full frame TBC these days.
Buy it, use it, resell it.

I think people that spend $1000 for a video game console (with controllers, handful of games) are bonkers. What a complete waste of time and money. But you know what? They buy it. And you know what else? Many people buy games with the same idea: buy it, use/enjoy it, resell it.

Quality video gear is an asset that holds value, and quite a few people understand this. Cars are the same way, and lots of people sold their used cars in 2020-2021 for a profit. I have actions figures on my desk that have no use, other that look pretty, and these have appreciated more than TBCs.

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Even IF the ES10 did have all the issues you claim, it would still be the infinitely more sensible option.
In some scenarios, I agree. Not all, and not even a majority. But some, yes, absolutely. I one-on-one advise folks of this very think frequently, but it's based on their exact needs, not just random generic advice.

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That is the problem right there however. There are no other good TBCs for a) any reasonable price or b) appropriate for anyone who isn't a video professional.
I disagree. You bought a TBC-1000, and still have it. You're either a serious hobbyist or a pro. If not, then keeping a TBC-1000 is ridiculous. Sell it, let somebody else have use of it, and get another TBC back into circulation. That person can buy it, use it, then resell it.

Do you still have every car you ever owned parked in your driveway?

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I bought it from Videoguys Australia in 2012. I remember I had actually ordered the TBC-100 PCI card from them but they sent me the TBC-1000 instead. I did not complain
Ah, that explains it. The PCI card was cheaper that the TBC-1000. And far cheaper, for a short time, when it was being discontinued, for about half price ($150 USD = half price). B&H didn't have any to clearance out, but a few shady NY dealers did, and I avoided those.

I still have ads somewhere, I saved video gear ads from the late 90s and early 2000s for trivia, I knew I'd want to see those numbers someday.

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  #22  
08-11-2021, 06:59 PM
ENunn ENunn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Buy it, use it, resell it.
I agree with this sentiment, but the only issue I have with it is this: the main hurdle to most people (including me) is buying it. If I had $2k in my pocket I'd snatch one up in an instant from you, plus both my kidneys, but alas. If someone made an alternative that that was just as good as a DataVideo or better that doesn't have the ugly side effects the ES15 has at a lower cost *cough* Mike Chi *cough*, I'd snatch it up. Unfortunately I think that market has had its time. I know it's still readily available, but the cost is a hurdle. But you know I'm still gonna buy one once I'm able to

For my case, my tape collection is ever growing, so reselling it isn't on the table for me.

Anyways, do you got an explanation for the weird lines when I have the VCR's TBC off while having the picture set to NORM? It reminds me of RF interference, but that doesn't make a lot of sense because I don't get the issue when I have it on EDIT mode, and with the TBC on, image is nice and clean.
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  #23  
08-11-2021, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENunn View Post
the main hurdle to most people
I've found this to not be the case. The hurdle is willingness to part with the funds, due to not understanding valuations of hardware. Too many people still think Walmart VCR pricing from the 1990s is the benchmark for valuations. The same person generally has no problem dropping $$$$ on something that has no ROI (emotional ROI, in terms of converting family memories).

I'm nonstop amazed at the prices of action figures. Browse BBTS: https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/
For example, this week's newest preorder is a 6" action figure based on a 1990s Sega game, for the low-low price of only $125 (plus tax, plus $4 flat shipping). Seriously, WTF? If you followed toy groups on Facebook, or genre forums (example: TFW2005 for Transformers, where I'm a member), you'd see how most people have the entire figure lines. And many get not just one figure, but "one to open, one to keep MIB/MOC" (which I find nuts). We're talking massive spending on action figures.

Stock trading sites are no different. I can afford to grab 25 shares of this, 10 shares of that. But some people have enough cash to get 100 or even 500 shares in a single buy. They're flush with cash.

Yes, I know people that don't even have two nickels to rub together. But I know equally as many, probably more, that have money. I know a school teacher that drives a Corvette. And nearby rednecks have yards full of "toys" (motorcycles, golf carts, tractors, etc) and $50k+ pickup trucks.

Every weekend, I watch the tractor auctions on RFDTV, with a family member (he enjoys it, and I enjoy spending time with him). Those people often own barns full of tractors, on a large piece of property, and it's unfathomable how much money some people must have.

Anyway, I just do not think what you're saying is accurate, at least for the primary demographic that is willing to DIY video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENunn View Post
Anyways, do you got an explanation for the weird lines
Not at this time, no.

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  #24  
08-12-2021, 01:02 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENunn View Post
Anyways, do you got an explanation for the weird lines when I have the VCR's TBC off while having the picture set to NORM? It reminds me of RF interference, but that doesn't make a lot of sense because I don't get the issue when I have it on EDIT mode, and with the TBC on, image is nice and clean.
Can you post a short sample or at least a frame showing the weird lines?
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  #25  
08-12-2021, 01:42 AM
ENunn ENunn is offline
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Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Can you post a short sample or at least a frame showing the weird lines?
I have a screenshot here and a video example here.
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  #26  
08-12-2021, 09:52 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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So much to answer here. I will have to split this post up as there is a lot to cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The weak DVK chases the ES10/15 to provide frame correction. The DVK alone chokes on consumer tapes, and was designed for studio work (mixed digital+analog camera work). The ES10/15 alone lacks frame corrections, and the ES10/15 output is still often too unstable and signal-noisy for stable quality capturing. This is easy to see with something like BM cards, which still inject black/null frames, even with ES10/15.
Have you personally tried a BM card? The ES10's frame sync is absolutely stable enough for it. Using the analog inputs on BM is not ideal however, the optimal way to capture with BM is via the HDMI method. ES10 > 2nd Gen Panasonic DVR with HDMI out. The BM s/w must also be used as capturing through eg. Virtualdub causes issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You're confusing the black AVT-8710, which has the freezing issues you're describing, and has never been recommended, with the green AVT-8710, which has none of those problems.
So about the AVT-8710. Yes I did buy Cypress with the knowledge of it being a rebadged AVT, I wanted to test if they were indeed the same under the hood. The green model is almost unobtainable and as with Datavideo units, the price has also significantly increased. Even the green + black model is selling for at least 1K lately. I have also read reports of issues even with the coveted green model but as I've never owned one, I can't confirm them myself. In any case, I don't trust this TBC in general and certainly not at the new going rate.

Re: the proc amp, I agree that it may not the be the thing at fault here but the point remains - levels and colour are completely mishandled by the units that I've tried. Irrespective of tapes, the adjustments made by the TBC are always definitively wrong. I am not merely judging by eye, the waveforms speak for themselves. Even if freezing / ghosting is not a factor on your AVT, I would be equally concerned about its handling of levels too.

Back to the ES10 -
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It is crippled, due to forced Macrovision detection. Anti-copy is just an artificial video error, and natural errors can look the same. Thus it chokes on "Macrovision" where none exists.
Yes it does adhere to copy protection but with the HDMI method it is simply bypassed - unless there are MV-based issues / luma errors in the video as you describe. I've personally not dealt with them, I've only captured a small number of retail tapes and my personal ones have never triggered any false MV errors either. I think context is important here too. Most are simply just looking to archive their own footage rather than a library of retail tapes, and I would honestly be surprised if every 2nd home video was triggering such errors. The AIW cards that you typically recommend are also known for their vulnerability to this specific issue, so that may be a factor if you encounter it on a regular basis.

End of the day, it is a difference of spending hundreds vs thousands of dollars for a "what if" scenario. If some tapes are truly so worn out that they make any consumer A/D converter go haywire then they can simply be set aside and left to a professional service to digitize. Much more sensible option than spending an exorbitant amount of money "just in case" on external TBCs that are sold at 5x the price (at least) of what they were brand new.

Side note: Whenever I refer to the ES10 I also refer to the entire line of 1st gen Panasonic DVRs. The TBC is not unique to simply this model, but also belongs to DMR-HS2, DMR-Exx, DMR-EH52 / EH50 / EH60. 1st gen has the strongest performance but 2nd gen is also adequate for decent condition tapes with the benefit of only one A/D conversion in the HDMI workflow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENunn View Post
If someone made an alternative that that was just as good as a DataVideo or better that doesn't have the ugly side effects the ES15 has at a lower cost *cough* Mike Chi *cough*, I'd snatch it up.
Are you absolutely certain you have actually turned off the AV-In NR? It is located in Display options, a different menu to the Setup options. If that is indeed the case then please upload a sample of these "ugly side effects" if you can.

Last edited by Jarvis; 08-12-2021 at 10:04 AM.
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  #27  
08-12-2021, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
The ES10's frame sync is absolutely stable enough
ES10 > 2nd Gen Panasonic DVR with HDMI out.
No. But that DVR may be doing something as well, similar to a DVK setup. Interesting.

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I have also read reports of issues even with the coveted green model but as I've never owned one, I can't confirm them myself.
The AVT-8710 isn't perfect. It has a plastic case, no heat sinks on the chips, and no power switch. Yanking power is bad, so use a power strip as the on/off (aka "surge protector", though it's misnomer, it protects nothing). Add heatsinks, if you want, but that usually means you have to alter the case. And the plastic case reflects heat back at the board, and doesn't escape.

I've said this for at least 15 years now. The AVT-8710 can overheat is used too long. Never use it for more than 6 hours, and let it cool down for at least 30 minutes between uses.

AVT-8710 problems are cumulative. Many units now exhibit what I refer to as "attitude problems". The output can be garbled. In the worst cases, then unit refuses to even power on. It takes patience to retry unit startup, with breaks between startups. Then use it for 6 hours. And then I suggest you call it quits for the day, not push it. The mild currently-typical issues just take a few attempts.

I've lost AVT-8710s myself from this. I'd baby the units for years, and then accidentally leave it on overnight. One mistake is all it took.

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levels and colour are completely mishandled by the units that I've tried.
The DataVideo units behave far worse, far more often. So I have to wonder if you're basing this on a comparative analysis.

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Even if freezing / ghosting is not a factor on your AVT, I would be equally concerned about its handling of levels too.
That's a worry for anything that processes the signal. TBCs, DVD recorders -- even proc amps. The ES10/15 is no darling, and Panasonic is infamous for screwing with luma and IRE values. Too green, too dark, too wash out, etc.

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Yes it does adhere to copy protection but with the HDMI method it is simply bypassed - unless there are MV-based issues / luma errors in the video as you describe. I've personally not dealt with them,
HDMI does nothing here, and errors will still be created and passed. It's just baked in by the HDMI stage. False positive anti-copy (aka natural error), or actual anti-copy (be it Macrovision or others). The AGC issues are the most common issue, and the hardware in a workflow determines exactly how it presents (often violent, or just obnoxious).

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I've only captured a small number of retail tapes and my personal ones have never triggered any false MV errors either.
Not all retail tapes have MV specifically.

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I think context is important here too. Most are simply ally just looking to archive their own footage rather than a library of retail tapes, and I would honestly be surprised if every 2nd home video was triggering such errors. The AIW cards that you typically recommend are also known for their vulnerability to this specific issue, so that may be a factor if you encounter it on a regular basis.
It's present on all cards. Some cards that "ignore" anti-copy (example, Tevion "clone" ATI 600 USB) still have to content with video errors that actually interfere with the transfer. Other cards (example, AD based Pinnacles) have almost no false positive anti-copy, even ignore some legit anti-copy, and are even resilient to some issues (as the chips were apparently instructed to expect such sources issues) -- but it's still far from infallible, which issues when attempting to go sans-TBC, or even just with a minimalist ES10/15.

I think part of your issue is just not having enough experience with a wide array of tapes. How many tapes have you converted to date?

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If some tapes are truly so worn out
It has nothing to do with "worn out". That's a newbie misconception. Yes, nth gen does obviously have more issues. But the root cause is signal quality, tape quality, workflow hardware quality (and lack of conflicts). I could dunk a tape in a vat of chicken noodle soup, have it professionally cleaned, and it may look fine. I could also have a physically/exterior perfect-looking tape, and it just refuses to transfer well, because the signal is shit (and yet may "look fine" on a CRT).

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Much more sensible option than spending an exorbitant amount of money "just in case" on external TBCs that are sold at 5x the price (at least) of what they were brand new.
It's not "just in case".

And you're still not understanding valuations (coupled with inflation). I can no longer buy a cheeseburger for 49 cents ($0.49), but you don't see me opting to starve rather than pay $1.99 in today's prices. It's not "old tech" (worthless tech), but legacy (still needed, no longer made). Legacy has value. This was true long before TBCs, and f/2.8 (or lower) lenses is a good example of it. There are lens made in decades past that cost way more than MSRP, and nothing comparable new exists. It's not just pros buying those, but hobbyists, and even photo students.

Quote:
Side note: Whenever I refer to the ES10 I also refer to the entire line of 1st gen Panasonic DVRs. The TBC is not unique to simply this model, but also belongs to .. DMR-Exx
but 2nd gen is also adequate
No. The ES10/15 is the only ES that works. The ES20/25 have a so-called "line TBC" that is as weak and pathetic as the Canopus ADVC-300, almost non-existent. ES10, ES15, or bust.

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  #28  
08-12-2021, 10:52 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
No. The ES10/15 is the only ES that works. The ES20/25 have a so-called "line TBC" that is as weak and pathetic as the Canopus ADVC-300, almost non-existent. ES10, ES15, or bust.
This has been extensively tested on Gleitz forum. All 1st Gen Panasonic DVRs contain the same ADC. ES15 is part of the 2nd gen which has weaker (but still effective) TBC. The ADC has also been tested at the signal level to ensure it adheres to strict specifications, in comparison to most other consumer-grade capture devices which do not.

Last edited by Jarvis; 08-12-2021 at 11:07 AM.
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  #29  
08-12-2021, 02:43 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Jarvis is talking about the PAL models and Lordsmurf is talking about the NTSC models, so there may be some differences.

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Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
Have you personally tried a BM card? The ES10's frame sync is absolutely stable enough for it.
Lordsmurf skipped answering the question.

In my testing, NTSC Panasonic DMR-ES15 and DMR-ES25 both completely eliminate all Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K black flashes and frame drops/inserts, even with my worst Nth-gen tape or other garbage like tuner static, unrecorded tape, etc.

I never ended up posting my results because all evidence is dismissed/ignored, but since I have nothing better to do at the moment, here's a screenshot. Sound card used as poor man's 2-channel oscilloscope; sufficient for my purpose.

Left channel = direct signal (blank portion of tape)
Right channel = same signal passed through DMR; consistent VSync is added (frame sync)

DMR-ES15 blank tape framing.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
No. The ES10/15 is the only ES that works. The ES20/25 have a so-called "line TBC" that is as weak and pathetic as the Canopus ADVC-300, almost non-existent. ES10, ES15, or bust.
Just a couple previous examples, again, demonstrating that my DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25, and DMR-E20 all function for me as line TBC. (I've never tried the DMR-ES20, but all evidence and experience I've seen does indicate that it's internally different and has nothing we'd call line TBC.)

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e7#post2341969
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-I-hate-DNR%29
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...deo-samples%29


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  #30  
08-12-2021, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
my DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25, and DMR-E20 all function for me as line TBC. (I've never tried the DMR-ES20, but all evidence and experience I've seen does indicate that it's internally different and has nothing we'd call line TBC.)

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e7#post2341969
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-I-hate-DNR%29
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...deo-samples%29
All I can say to that is either:

(a) that you must not have had very varied testing criteria. I found the ES20 and ES25 were both very weak, and often did little to nothing on very basic line timing (wiggle) issues, worse than any JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR, which is the standard. It was a far cry from ES10 or ES15, which is itself stronger than the JVC/Panasonic decks (which is both good and bad).

(b) that there are at least two versions of the ES25. That's also plausible, it happens.

Understand I wish this were not the case. But it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Lordsmurf skipped answering the question.
Some topics have been discussed already, I don't feel the need to address it again.

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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Sound card used as poor man's 2-channel oscilloscope;
Neat! Details?

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  #31  
08-12-2021, 03:58 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Originally Posted by ENunn View Post
I have a screenshot here and a video example here.
Again, I still don't see what is the issue, That's normal VHS artifacts, it is part of the tape. Different analog workflows never produce identical results pixel by pixel, Only digital sources can achieve that level of consistency.
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  #32  
08-12-2021, 04:41 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
This has been extensively tested on Gleitz forum. All 1st Gen Panasonic DVRs contain the same ADC. ES15 is part of the 2nd gen which has weaker (but still effective) TBC. The ADC has also been tested at the signal level to ensure it adheres to strict specifications, in comparison to most other consumer-grade capture devices which do not.
I know a few models including the ES20 used a LSI DoMiNo system/mpeg chip rather than a panasonic one, see e.g this doc, I don't know if that has something to do with that specific model having been observed to behave differently? They all seem to be using panasonic chips otherwise, including for A/D. There is scant with detail about those ICs though, and the service manuals don't even include the schematics for the digital boards. I've only seen a datasheet for one panasonic video IC, which does note line-TBC stuff, but it has a different name to any of the ones I've seen actually used. The pre-2005/06 models like the E50 seem to be constructed quite differently and has a different menu setup but idk if they used similar chips.

Also not all models were released everywhere, like there is an ES16 that seems to be a Canada-only model that's almost the same as the ES15. I think the ES25 is similar to the ES15, but with HDMI, and may be North-America only. I don't know for certain if they had models that used significantly different hardware with the same name. ES referred to HDD-less models EH to ones with HDDs as far as I know, later they used EZ and EX for models with digital tuners. The second number seems to generally indicate what generation they are from.

As Ive noted before, I've also never seen the ones I've used output anything that wasn't a stable signal, though they do turn off the analog outputs after a few seconds if they think there is nothing being input. This does NOT happen on unrecorded sections of a tape, but it can happen if a tape has been "erased" by recording to it with no signal input (provided the VCR doesn't blue screen on it, and may possibly not happen if the VCR has a TBC active) which isn't very common but I've seen it a few times. Never seen models from other brands that do this so I don't know why Panasonic decided to set them up like this. This isn't an issue if using the HDMI out on a newer model though.

On the PAL Lion king tapes I have the EH57 at least gives constantly fluctuating brightness levels even if connected over HDMI (I think the ES10 does similar but not sure.) Macrovision isn't as common on PAL tapes as NTSC ones though, haven't done a lot of testing on other devices with it though.

Main issue with the PAL ones as noted before and on the German forums is that they tend to clip whites, which can be worked around.

EDIT: ANyway I think it would be better to have this discussion in another thread.

Last edited by hodgey; 08-12-2021 at 04:52 PM.
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08-12-2021, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Again, I still don't see what is the issue, That's normal VHS artifacts, it is part of the tape. Different analog workflows never produce identical results pixel by pixel, Only digital sources can achieve that level of consistency.
Compare EDIT to NORM. NORM has the artifacts. EDIT doesn't. This doesn't happen when I have the TBC on, only when its off (which I need for some tapes). I've had the same results on every tape with NORM. EDIT is perfectly fine.
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  #34  
08-12-2021, 11:20 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Ok then use EDIT, that's what you suppose to use for capturing anyway.
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  #35  
08-13-2021, 10:42 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
AVT-8710 problems are cumulative. Many units now exhibit what I refer to as "attitude problems". The output can be garbled. In the worst cases, then unit refuses to even power on. It takes patience to retry unit startup, with breaks between startups. Then use it for 6 hours. And then I suggest you call it quits for the day, not push it. The mild currently-typical issues just take a few attempts.
If I knew nothing about the AVT-8710, reading this alone would be enough to discourage me from buying one. And this is supposed to be the good model? Randomly providing garbled output and even refusing to power on? Clearly not a well-engineered piece of hardware. If it was readily available and sold cheap then maybe it would be acceptable to deal with such issues, but as neither is the case then I cannot imagine why anyone continues recommending it.

In comparison, the Datavideo TBC I own provides consistent performance and the unit has never exhibited the kind of behaviour you describe with the AVTs. It does a good job of handling levels and is fairly transparent to the signal. While I can provide comparison samples, I can't prove how stable the unit has been over the years so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
HDMI does nothing here, and errors will still be created and passed. It's just baked in by the HDMI stage.
Yes that is unfortunately the case if luma errors / fluctuating brightness are embedded in the signal from the ES10. For the average person looking to digitize their home videos, it might be wiser to check if any of them even exhibit such issues before pre-emptively forking out 1-2K on an external TBC option. Wiser still to simply send those particular tapes to a reputable service to digitize as I mentioned. But I admit, it is a problem and high time to investigate more reasonably priced and more available alternatives.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It has nothing to do with "worn out". That's a newbie misconception.
Sure. Some tapes may just be inherently bad, but more often they have simply been neglected / mishandled. For example, I am certain that some of the more problematic footage I've dealt with is due to my father leaving boxes of VHS-C tapes in the garage for over a decade of hot summers

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
And you're still not understanding valuations (coupled with inflation). I can no longer buy a cheeseburger for 49 cents ($0.49), but you don't see me opting to starve rather than pay $1.99 in today's prices.
This has nothing to do with you advising total beginners to needlessly spend thousands of dollars on h/w. There is no guarantee of getting money back on resale either. I have spent more than I'm willing to admit on high end VCRs that I can now only sell "for parts" because nobody local can fix them. Alternatively, I can pay high shipping fees for someone that can and I would still probably sell them at a loss regardless.

End of the day, you just make it seem like your workflow is the only option, even when other viable methods are provided yet you choose not to even acknowledge them. To see that reputable members like msgohan consider themselves dismissed on here is also concerning. You found your ideal setup and that's totally fine, the problem only arises when you act like all other methods are strictly inferior - even when you have never tried them yourself.

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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Main issue with the PAL ones as noted before and on the German forums is that they tend to clip whites, which can be worked around.
There are certainly ways around it. For some tapes, I pass video through a volume controller which is repurposed as a voltage regulator to bring levels back in range. This is due to them being recorded on a tube camera where the levels far exceed spec. The downside is that this method is composite-only but aside from that it works very well, negating the need for a dedicated proc amp. The volume controller is a passive device and thus adds no extra noise to the signal.

This will be my last post in the thread as I agree the discussion is better continued elsewhere.
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  #36  
08-13-2021, 01:20 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
If I knew nothing about the AVT-8710, reading this alone would be enough to discourage me from buying one. And this is supposed to be the good model? Randomly providing garbled output and even refusing to power on? Clearly not a well-engineered piece of hardware.
There's no "clearly" here. TBCs were never intended to last multiple decades, and same goes for VCRs.

For example, the TBC-1000 is no darling, and has had excessive caps issues since 2019. We're all now learning that some units have begun to age as badly as AG-1980P decks. You also need to understand that there is no single TBC-1000, but at least 6 different revisions sharing that model number, which comparable (but not identical) parts.

Quote:
In comparison, the Datavideo TBC I own provides consistent performance and the unit has never exhibited the kind of behaviour you describe with the AVTs. It does a good job of handling levels and is fairly transparent to the signal. While I can provide comparison samples, I can't prove how stable the unit has been over the years so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
... for now. While I don't like your false assertions, I do hope that you never see those problems. I just wish you'd understand that not every TBC-1000 is acting the same, and that no amount of babying will spare it from bad caps, because those age regardless of usage, storage, etc. Obviously storing it outside with a lawnmower would hasten issues, but storing it in an office cupboard isn't bulletproof to ensuring longevity.

Quote:
Wiser still to simply send those particular tapes to a reputable service
This can be a problem. Lots of "professional" services are using the same low-end gear that you would, or worse. This is also a main reason people want to DIY, and willing to invest in the good gear (so the project is one-and-done), then resell when done.

Quote:
For example, I am certain that some of the more problematic footage I've dealt with is due to my father leaving boxes of VHS-C tapes in the garage for over a decade of hot summers
Eh. Maybe, maybe not. The typical bad storage more often affects physical condition, not signal condition. Heat can harm tape, and cause timing issues. But more often, that is a source of dirt, dust, mold, which ruins VCRs if not cleaned before running the tapes. I've had to turn down lots of projects where the tapes was too unclean to process, even in our "dirty deck" (VCR used ONLY for processing marginally clean tapes).

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There is no guarantee of getting money back on resale
There's also no guarantee that a frozen poop bomb from an airplane won't fall on your house, and squash both you and the TBC. Nothing is guaranteed, aside from death and taxes. But there are odds, and odds are good resale value from quality gear is very high. Also, part of the onus is on you. If you drag your feet, and don't complete the project for 5-10 years, well then you'll accept whatever the market valuation is at that time (higher or lower). If you complete it in months or even a year, odds are good that you'll capture that 75% to 126% resale value (slight loss, maybe even slight gain). I've never seen anything entirely bottom out as worthless, when it comes to this specific gear.

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either. I have spent more than I'm willing to admit on high end VCRs that I can now only sell "for parts" because nobody local can fix them. Alternatively, I can pay high shipping fees for someone that can and I would still probably sell them at a loss regardless.
That has nothing to do with resale. That's repair.

Quote:
End of the day, you just make it seem like your workflow is the only option,
The basic workflow is required (VCR > TBC > capture device).
- Invest in a good VCR, that's where quality starts (or stops).
- Some form of TBC is required, and the ES10/15 is a line TBC with non-TBC frame sync, not really a TBC at all, very minimally meets the definition of "TBC" in the context, and with multiple issues (not just artifacts, but reliability).
- Obviously a capture card, DVD recorder, capture box, etc. Again, don't go cheap, or you'll get 1990s junk (Canopus ADVC boxes), or cheap Chinese USB or HDMI junk, all of which will butcher the video quality.

I always find it amusing that people think that I suggest my workflow.

That entails about 4x decks (at least 1 AG-1980P and 2x JVCs, a DVD recorder, multiple capture cards, multiple TBCs (at least 1 DataVideo and 1 Cypress), audio mixers, two different types of proc amp (1 RGB, 1 YUV), a detailer -- and yes, ES10 or ES15.

No, I'm merely suggesting a basic good workflow. Nothing "fancy" or "pro" by any means. Basic.

Now if you want to cut corners, I'll talk about ES10/15 or better yet ES10/15 paired with DVK/5000. We can discuss other non-suggested capture cards. Same for non-TBC VCRs, and JVC still suggested.

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even when other viable methods are provided yet you choose not to even acknowledge them.
Some "viable" methods are not really viable at all.

Quote:
To see that reputable members like msgohan consider themselves dismissed on here is also concerning.
Dismissed? No.
Disagree with? Yes, sometimes. But usually not.

Quote:
You found your ideal setup and that's totally fine, the problem only arises when you act like all other methods are strictly inferior - even when you have never tried them yourself.
Logical fallacy.

I don't need to try every method myself. Just as I also don't need to stick my dick in an electric socket ("try it myself!") to know it won't have a good outcome. There is plenty of extant data that shows what will happen.

Now then, that said, I have tried (or reviewed) about 100 capture cards, maybe 60 DVDs, at least 100 VCRs, almost every single TBC (or TBC-like device) known to exist, in the past 2 decades. So spare me the "you never try it yourself" bit. But I just cannot spend the time to "try" everything due to online trolling daring me to "try it myself" (which, FYI, almost never deviates from the expected outcome, and the problem vectors are easy to recreate).

Quote:
This will be my last post in the thread as I agree the discussion is better continued elsewhere.
Our conversation here was slightly off-topic, but then again the post has meandered some from the original post, and everything we've discussed did have topical overlap.

The bottom line is this...

Your main disagreement is simply about price. You want to find cheaper alternatives, and those do exist. That's fine, I make those suggestions as well.

However, you have to understand that cutting corners always reduces overall compatibility, often quality.

Not everybody pinches pennies. Some folks want to invest in a foolproof solution, something that "just works". They don't want to experiment, learn lots about video, and screw around with trial-and-error, in order to see if the cheaper solution will work for them. Their time is more valuable than that. They spend what's needed for the better/best gear, do the transfer work, the resell the gear. Most get back a decent resale % (sometimes even profit), but understand that even at a 50% loss, their DIY is less costly than giving it to a pro service (or a "pro" service that may have given crappy quality). They're able to get an overall excellent return on investment, and have quality converted video they're happy with. I see this all the time.

Overall, video is a cheap hobby, a few grand gets you everything you'll need. For most hobbies, that's just intro costs. So, perspective needed.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
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  #37  
08-14-2021, 06:50 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Our conversation here was slightly off-topic, but then again the post has meandered some from the original post, and everything we've discussed did have topical overlap.
In that case, if it doesn't bother you then I am happy to continue the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
While I don't like your false assertions, I do hope that you never see those problems. I just wish you'd understand that not every TBC-1000 is acting the same, and that no amount of babying will spare it from bad caps, because those age regardless of usage, storage, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by false assertions. My opinion on the TBC-1000 is based on my own unit's performance, and additionally based on the many examples / testing done by others. This TBC was widely discussed over on VH and from memory the main issue was the VP-299 distribution amp causing a softening of the picture (and perhaps other issues I've forgotten). I am not stating it as a fact that this TBC is perfect no matter the unit, it very well could have some problems across the 6 revisions as you say. But in my experience I am satisfied with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
This can be a problem. Lots of "professional" services are using the same low-end gear that you would, or worse.
Well I did say reputable, though granted the selection can be difficult for someone with little idea on the topic. Research is paramount of course, but this is another discussion.

The main thing I want to talk about - regarding my "low-end gear". If you asked me for a list of it you would find we share much in common. I paid a great deal of attention to your posts when I was starting out circa-2011 and onwards, and many of my purchases were largely based on your recommendation. My current setup therefore is not determined by choice, but by necessity.

I'll just focus on the essentials - line TBC and frame sync. The TBCs found in recommended JVCs and Panasonics consistently choked on my tapes and also had inherent downsides regardless of performance. Namely the JVC's forced DNR and the Panasonic's hard clipping of any levels above spec. I was unsatisfied until I acquired the ES10 which ironed out anything I threw at it without complaint. From that point it became a permanent part of the chain.

In regards to full frame TBC, you already know my thoughts on AVT-8710 and though I never owned the coveted green model, the ones I did own simply butchered the signal. TBC-1000 was indeed a good purchase in my personal experience, however - given that I was not dealing with either MV or false triggers and already having a rock solid frame sync from the ES10 (as proven in this very thread) it became unnecessary. It is always there as a backup however, should any problems arise with false detection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Your main disagreement is simply about price. You want to find cheaper alternatives, and those do exist. That's fine, I make those suggestions as well.
Not simply price. If we take that out of the discussion altogether, the problem of availability still remains. Whether it is about acquring this special green AVT model, or the ideal revision of the 6 that TBC-1000 has as you say. Anything this rare is problematic as a recommendation as it may simply prove too difficult to find. Aside from the VCRs, everything in my personal capture chain can be found and purchased on the very same day if the current unit broke down.

Even outside of TBCs, good proc amps are also equally hard to acquire. I tried for years to purchase a Signvideo PA-100 with absolutely no luck. People must be holding onto them for dear life because they have largely disappeared. The best I managed was the previous iteration under Vidicraft label, the PRC-100 which is composite-only with no separate toggles for white and black point (but a useful luma meter which I still use occasionally). As mentioned before, I am now simply repurposing a volume controller to lower abnormally high levels - also composite-only but at least it is passive and adds zero noise. Only used for special tapes.

In terms of the ES10 / Panasonic DVRS in general, your main disagreement seems to be about MV-based issues. Posterization being a secondary factor which I still haven't personally seen, and if we really want to test this then it is certainly possible. But soley on the topic of false MV triggers, are they truly so common to immediately warrant the purchase of a full TBC? Many users (including professionals that have frequented this forum) also use the Canopus NX card (not DV) with no other h/w in the chain, as it has comparable (slightly better) line TBC and frame sync to the ones in 2nd Gen Pana DVRs, along with a true proc amp. As I assume this card would also obey copy-protection, then I am simply doubtful about these false triggers being such a recurring issue.

As I’ve said before, context is very important - not everyone is intending to start a capture service transferring all manner of wildly varying tapes from around the world. Most likely they have only a small collection of their own and a minimal, readily available capture chain may be entirely sufficient without hunting down rare and costly hardware.

Last edited by Jarvis; 08-14-2021 at 07:46 AM.
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  #38  
02-11-2022, 11:33 AM
ENunn ENunn is offline
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Over half a year later, VCR still works well. I just got a Cyberpower UPS and it looks like it cleaned a bit of noise up if there was any. however, I am still having issues with picture control NORM with the TBC off. I'm still getting this nasty noise that happens every few seconds. Whenever I have to use my ES15 I have to use EDIT mode but it looks SO bad compared to NORM. Is there a solution?

Screenshot here, video example here.

The ES15 is not causing the issue. I see it on my CRT as well even if it's the only thing hooked up to the output.

Last edited by ENunn; 02-11-2022 at 12:11 PM.
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