VHS vs. Video8, ES10 TBC with DVK?

[Crazyates]

My VHS workflow looks like this:

AG1980 -> EC10 -> DVK-200 -> ATI AIW 9000 on XP

My (tentative) Video8 workflow looks like this:

CCD-TR930 -> DVK-200 -> ATI AIW 9000 on XP

Will this work? My understanding is that the EC10 Line TBC is better than the VCR Line TBC, but that might also not be true for the Camcorder TBC. I also know that the EC10 needs to "clean up" the signal for the DVK to not choke, but the DVK seems to take the footage directly from the TR930 just fine. I'm a little confused about the down-sides to using the EC10 in both situations, or should I just use the EC10 with my VHS workflow? Thanks!

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyates

My understanding is that the EC10 Line TBC is better than the VCR Line TBC

That can vary a bit IMO, there isn't a strict yes/no answer. The line tbc in the sony 8mm camcorders is very good, I'm in PAL land so less familiar with the AG1980P but those also have a very integrated tbc/digital processing so should be ok on most tapes. (Would be a different story with the JVC SVHS TBCs as those are more variable on tapes with issues)

I haven't used the DVKs so I don't know what sort of signal give them issues exactly, but you might be fine by leaving out the ES10 in most cases unless you experience the DVK dropping/inserting frames or loosing the signal, or you have tapes where the internal TBC has issues stabilizing horizontal jitter in which case turn the internal tbc off and let the ES10 do the job instead. HAving both the ES10 and the DVK in the chain will involve an extra analog to digital back to analog conversion (and afaik the NTSC ES10 can cause some banding/posterizing effect in some cases). Shouldn't normally need the DVK if using the ES10 either, it should output a stable signal unless you have a tape with "empty" sections (sections where a completely blank signal is recorded, not just an unrecorded section) as those cause the ES10 output to turn off as it thinks there is no signal, or if there are some other weird interactions with the AIW cards and ES10 output that I'm not aware of.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyates

AG1980 -> EC10 -> DVK-200 -> ATI AIW 9000 on XP

ES10 line TBC only as needed, when AG-1980 field TBC fails or makes quality worse (which can happen).

Quote:

My (tentative) Video8 workflow looks like this:
CCD-TR930 -> DVK-200 -> ATI AIW 9000 on XP

Assuming that camera has line TBC?
If so, fine. Same as above.

Quote:

I also know that the EC10 needs to "clean up" the signal for the DVK to not choke, but the DVK seems to take the footage directly from the TR930 just fine.

DVK is weaker that most other frame TBCs, and it must be paired with line. Most times, you see full budget setups of non-TBC VCR > ES10/15 > DVK > capture card. Because most people willing to spend $$$$ to refurb a AG-1980 are goingto go for the quality TBC as well. In this scenario, DVK can fail, especially with the 8mm Sony tape formats. It really depends on tape/shoot quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

That can vary a bit IMO, there isn't a strict yes/no answer. The line tbc in the sony 8mm camcorders is very good, I'm in PAL land so less familiar with the AG1980P but those also have a very integrated tbc/digital processing so should be ok on most tapes. (Would be a different story with the JVC SVHS TBCs as those are more variable on tapes with issues)
I haven't used the DVKs so I don't know what sort of signal give them issues exactly, but you might be fine by leaving out the ES10 in most cases

Yep, correct.

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unless you experience the DVK dropping/inserting frames or loosing the signal, or you have tapes where the internal TBC has issues stabilizing horizontal jitter in which case turn the internal tbc off

That almost never happens.

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and let the ES10 do the job instead.
Shouldn't normally need the DVK if using the ES10 either, it should output a stable signal unless you have a tape with "empty" sections (sections where a completely blank signal is recorded, not just an unrecorded section) as those cause the ES10 output to turn off as it thinks there is no signal, or if there are some other weird interactions with the AIW cards and ES10 output that I'm not aware of.

The non-TBC frame sync of ES10 is generally vastly inferior, high fail rate, it's just not frame TBC. It's possible to A>D a signal, and the output is still an analog mess that needs more TBC'ing. The only truth about TBC is axis, cannot double up (line>line, or frame>frame).

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HAving both the ES10 and the DVK in the chain will involve an extra analog to digital back to analog conversion

Too much is made of this, at times. This is one of those scenarios.

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(and afaik the NTSC ES10 can cause some banding/posterizing effect in some cases).

Correct.

[Crazyates]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

ES10 line TBC only as needed, when AG-1980 field TBC fails or makes quality worse (which can happen).

What do you mean when you sayd "when TBC fails or makes quality worse"? What should I be looking for? Visual artifacts? Dropped/added frames? Audio sync issues?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Assuming that camera has line TBC?
If so, fine. Same as above.

Yes, it's a Sony Hi8 Camcorder that has line TBC, S-video out, and stereo. It doesn't have an LCD preview, just the viewfinder, so it was pretty cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

DVK is weaker that most other frame TBCs, and it must be paired with line. Most times, you see full budget setups of non-TBC VCR > ES10/15 > DVK > capture card. Because most people willing to spend $$$$ to refurb a AG-1980 are going to go for the quality TBC as well. In this scenario, DVK can fail, especially with the 8mm Sony tape formats. It really depends on tape/shoot quality.

I was able to get my AG1980 for free by saving it from the work dumpster. I got 3 of them actually, in varying conditions, but 1 of them is is working perfectly. I'm still on a budget, and I think between the camcorder, ES10, DVK-200, XP system with AGP AIW 9000, I'm under $400 for the whole setup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The only truth about TBC is axis, cannot double up (line>line, or frame>frame).

I think I understand that I should be using a single Line TBC (Camcorder, VCR, or EC10) and a single Frame TBC (DVK) in my workflow. I should only be using 1 of each, not doubling up.

Quote:

(and afaik the NTSC ES10 can cause some banding/posterizing effect in some cases).

This is what I thought I read somewhere (in my hours and hours of reading this forum), but couldn't find a concrete answer. If the EC10 has a strong Line TBC but can cause other visual degradation, I should first use the Line TBC from the VCR/Camcorder directly into the DVK, and only use the EC10 if the Line TBC from the VCR/Camcorder isn't enough.

[lordsmurf]

Yes, look for all of that: artifacts, drops, inserts, sync, etc. That's worse.

AG-1980 from dumpster. Nice! But it likely need refurb, from deter for about $500.

Yes, use line from VCRs/cameras first, not ES10. ES10 is not a TBC, not a TBC replacement, none of that. It's good for anti-tearing, and that's really it. Trying to force it as a TBC has quality-harming side effects, and has a fail rate (ie, doesn't work for that tape, unlike actual TBCs).

You have a good grasp of it.