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-   -   A multitude of audio and video issues (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12125-multitude-audio-video.html)

dabhdude 08-28-2021 03:49 PM

A multitude of audio and video issues
 
Before I begin, I'd like to mention what my setup is.
Sony DCR-TRV320 for 8mm, Hi8 and Digital8 captures
Sony DCR-TRV11 for MiniDV captures, and firewire passthrough to computer
Several VCRs of varying quality (I also have a JVC HM-DH30000U which I'm hoping to get working well soon)
Now then, I've recently been trying to get back into the swing of doing analog captures. I started the other day by trying out some VHS captures. However, I noted that the VCR I was using (a GoVideo unit) was only putting out a mono signal to my MiniDV camera. At one point it did output a Hi-Fi signal on a retail tape, but then trying that same tape again for some reason only allowed mono again.
Today I tried converting a Hi8 and 8mm tape though the TRV320 through to the TRV11 MiniDV camera (and then into the computer). This may sound silly as the 320 has a firewire port on it, as well as a TBC (with the TRV11 lacking the latter), but for some reason I've been unable to get the port to work, and believe it may be faulty. Upon reviewing the captures, however, I noticed that, while not entirely in mono, the right audio track was incredibly quiet. I did notice a setting for an audio sub track menu in the settings. I wasn't quite sure what it meant, so I set it all the way to ST1. Perhaps this is my problem, and it should be set in the middle? I have no clue what a sub track is honestly.
Finally, I tried a simple DV capture. This worked more or less fine, albeit with some audio issues, though the tape path was having issues so I can't particularly fault the audio issues.
Does anyone have any experience with and/or suggestions for how to remedy these issues? Thank you all in advance.

latreche34 08-28-2021 04:08 PM

Why use miniDV camcorder, Shouldn't the TRV320 have a iLink port on its own?

dabhdude 08-28-2021 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34 (Post 79436)
Why use miniDV camcorder, Shouldn't the TRV320 have a iLink port on its own?

To quote...myself, actually...
Quote:

This may sound silly as the 320 has a firewire port on it, as well as a TBC (with the TRV11 lacking the latter), but for some reason I've been unable to get the port to work, and believe it may be faulty.

latreche34 08-28-2021 05:03 PM

Possible, But 4 pin firewire port don't go bad that easily as there is no power in them, unless some cluless previous owner before you used one of those fake firewire to USB adapters from amazon or ebay and fried the DV board.

I would still try to troublshoot the port as it saves you from using an extra camcorder and could potentially give a better quality if the camcorder process the RF output from the video heads VS your current camcorder processing it from the S-Video out or even worse from composite out.

dpalomaki 08-30-2021 07:37 PM

A few general notes on iLink/Firewire/IEEE1394 ports that may or may not apply to OP's case>

- Some ports are easily blown by hot swapping. Never try hot swap a firewire connection.

- Some gear may only work with the so called "Legacy" firewire driver in Win 7 and later.

- Some gear may be sensitive to the order in which the PC and camcorder are powered up after connection.

- Some camcorders may have a menu setting that must match the tape format. This is common with camcorders that can do both HDV and DV. The "Automatic " setting may not work.need a menu setting.

- Some camcorder might not like certain IEEE1394 chips. TI appears to be the most universally likes.

You may be able to check the port by connecting the two camcorders with firewire ports and trying to copy a DV tape from one to the other.

RobustReviews 08-31-2021 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki (Post 79472)
You may be able to check the port by connecting the two camcorders with firewire ports and trying to copy a DV tape from one to the other.

^ A great tip, but just bear in mind this is unlikely to work on some PAL models due to stupid EU Tax regulations..... Camcorders that can record from a direct source I believe were taxed as 'VCRs' which attracted much higher duty than camcorders (blame Philips and the Video2000 format, there's a whole story there, very short version is that it was to protect EU manufacturers and formats from the Japanese), I'm currently making a little video-essay on the story because there are some quite interesting twists and turns. Like I said, blame Philips & Grundig.

Same reason in 2021 all UK market DSLRs have a firmware limit on recording time for video (I *think* it's ten minutes) otherwise they attract duty as large-sensor, interchangeable lens professional video-cameras. Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs aren't known for being sensible on these matters.

:smack:

A bit off-topic, but I know UK market camcorders usually had any direct source recording removed for this reason.

hodgey 08-31-2021 10:41 AM

I don't remember off the top of my head but I think the audio mix setting should maybe be in the middle yea. DV can technically contain 4 audio tracks (in 12-bit audio mode), so I think that setting is for tapes that have the extra audio tracks or where one of the stereo tracks is used for something else than stereo.

On the camcorder that's doing the AV->DV conversion, I would also set the audio mode to 16-bit. I don't think the difference will be all that large, but there isn't really any reason to use the lower quality 12-bit/32khz setting for this, which is often the default.

dpalomaki 08-31-2021 02:31 PM

Quote:

I did notice a setting for an audio sub track menu in the settings. I wasn't quite sure what it meant, so I set it all the way to ST1. Perhaps this is my problem, and it should be set in the middle? I have no clue what a sub track is honestly.

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12125-multitude-audio-video.html#ixzz759GgU49q
As I recall, the 4-track (12 bit/32 kHz) audio modes was sometimes referred to as ST1 (Stereo 1) and ST2. with the default recording being ST1. Some (not all) DV camcorders and DV VCRs could record and/or dub to ST2. The middle setting would blend ST1 and ST2 audio audio playback according to the set percentage. Some camcorders would default to 32/12bit recording mode, others to 48/16bit.

FWIW some Hi8 equipment allowed recording both an AFM HiFI stereo tracks, and a PCM stereo PCM audio tracks. The PCM could be overdubbed in post while the AFM was locked in (as is VHS HiFi track).

RobustReviews 08-31-2021 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki (Post 79486)

FWIW some Hi8 equipment allowed recording both an AFM HiFI stereo tracks, and a PCM stereo PCM audio tracks. The PCM could be overdubbed in post while the AFM was locked in (as is VHS HiFi track).

You can do this with Video8, Hi8 audio is an absolute mess, there's PCM, stereo AFM (different for PAL and NTSC, PAL AFM-Stereo is a joke), and standard AFM mono.

Video8 probably has a relationship with DAT somewhere, I have a multitrack Video8 deck that can select from 6x stereo PCM tracks.

dpalomaki 08-31-2021 05:46 PM

The Tascam DA-88 and Sony PCM-800 used Hi8 video tape and provided 8 channels/tracks audio recording. However, they were NOT video, the signals recorded on the tape were very different. Generally it provided 16-bit digital recording at 44.1 or 48 k sampling rate.

I believe a few Hi8 VCRs had a multi-audio mode that could record multiple tracks of PCM audio in lieu of video.

Video8/Hi8 stereo (at least for NTSC) was comprised of a mono (L+R) track to ensure playback compatibility with mono machines, and a second difference channel (e.g., L-R) that could be used to reconstruct the L and R signals. This was recorded as AFM. This is akin to FM broadcast multiplex stereo.

The digital audio on consumer Video8/Hi8 was two channels of PCM (pulse code modulation) a digital signal. I'm not sure of the bit depth or sample rate.

RobustReviews 08-31-2021 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki (Post 79492)
The Tascam DA-88 and Sony PCM-800 used Hi8 video tape and provided 8 channels/tracks audio recording. However, they were NOT video, the signals recorded on the tape were very different. Generally it provided 16-bit digital recording at 44.1 or 48 k sampling rate.

I believe a few Hi8 VCRs had a multi-audio mode that could record multiple tracks of PCM audio in lieu of video.

Video8/Hi8 stereo (at least for NTSC) was comprised of a mono (L+R) track to ensure playback compatibility with mono machines, and a second difference channel (e.g., L-R) that could be used to reconstruct the L and R signals. This was recorded as AFM. This is akin to FM broadcast multiplex stereo.

The digital audio on consumer Video8/Hi8 was two channels of PCM (pulse code modulation) a digital signal. I'm not sure of the bit depth or sample rate.

Nearly.

There are models of Video8 machines that will record multiple PCM tracks (six stereo ones), like I said, I have one, it's sitting next to me. Whether they existed in NTSC land I don't know, but look up the Sony EV-S600, not common but it was 'a thing', I'm not confusing it with the digital audio systems that used Video8 tapes. Admittedly they do this at the expense of video, but it is a Video8 standard, not a separate standard.

The sample rate was 33.1KHz in a weird companded 9/8/5-bits with cyclic error correction, I'll let you work out the Nyquist but it was quite truncated, it sounded quite good actually, not CD quality but certainly better than most domestic video recorders in 1985. I can explain exactly how it worked (this is how I came in to video) but it's not worth retelling here - it was a good effort in the bandwidth available, the error correction was very smart. The headwrap angle on Video8 made laying down frames 'tricky' with error correction hence the non-linear compression/expansion. The dynamic range was very impressive for what is essentially an 8-bit word on the tape. At the top of the range there's a 4:1 compression going on, dropping to 1:1 at low amplitudes. It had to be interleaved too, which added another layer of complexity in to what was already a very modest frame of data.

You're right on AFR, it is very similar to FM broadcast. PAL required more chroma bandwidth and given the aforementioned issues with wrap-angle the tiny-head there was simply nowhere to squeeze the stereo AFR signal, in simple terms the difference signal doesn't cover the full dynamic range of the L+R signal, meaning that stereo can be very 'strange' and it's rare to find AFR stereo in PAL regions - music can sound very bizarre on it, it was probably good enough for camcorder footage though.

I have some prerecorded Video8s from the mid-late 80s with PCM & AFR and they sound really good, it was quite remarkable for a system released in 1984.


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