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  #1  
10-16-2021, 07:24 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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Hi, I'm trying to find an S-VHS that has DNR & head tracking, but not TBC to help keep the price down.

My main problem is that there were so many higher end VHS(S) players I have no clue what model numbers, or brands I would be looking for. In fact, part of the problem is that there are probably to many models for me to search for each of them. :/

I also have an 8mm/Hi8 Sony CCD-TR700 that shows the on screen display, but no image or sound, but the tape is "playing" so I'm assuming that thing is toast. :/

I'm assuming that there's nothing special enough about that particular 8mm recorder to warrant repairing.

I hope to find something in Canada to save on shipping, but I can't find one locally, so if I have to buy from the USA, that's fine.

BTW, for TBC(ish) I'm using a DMR-E60 with pass-through. I don't see it mentioned here much. Mainly see people talking about the ES-10/15's, so I'm not sure what the differences are. I'm guessing there's no DNR, as there's nothing in the menu about DNR.

Edit: I should have added that I'd need to know if I would need the remote to turn the various functions on and off, or are there buttons on the player if the remote is lost.

Thanks!
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  #2  
10-16-2021, 07:49 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I'm not aware of a VCR with DNR but no TBC as this function is tight to the TBC, So you will be looking for a S-VHS VCR with S-Video out which there are plenty of them, Sony made several but stability of the picture will be lacking if you don't have an external stabilizer.

To find out if your DVD recorder is working simply post few seconds clip without it and with it and we'll let you know if it's working. In most cases the remote is ettential to enter the menu settings.

https://www.youtube.com/user/latoak34/videos
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  #3  
10-16-2021, 09:01 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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Thanks for the advice. So do most or all S-VHS players have auto-head tracking?

Also, the hardware that isn't working is a Hi8/8mm recorder, not a DVD recorder.

I can see the OSD, but there's no sound or video, so I'm assuming it isn't worth bothering with.

The video is straight black, so I took a photo of what I see. It turns on, says it's playing, the tape turns, and it even says it's recording if I choose to record. When on "camera" mode, I can see the image of what is in front of the lens in the viewfinder, but nothing when playing.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ua6evapsvdk0wp2/8mm.jpg?dl=0
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  #4  
10-17-2021, 12:41 AM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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I think latreche34 was asking for samples run through the DMR-E60 to judge whether it was providing any TBC-ish benefits: the same material with and without the E60 in the workflow to compare.

Regarding the CCD-TR700, it is probably not worth getting it fixed if that would even be possible. I have a still working Nikon branded equivalent, but the consensus is that it's best to use a newer Sony D8 or Hi8 camcorder to take advantage of the usually beneficial line TBC and sometimes beneficial DNR the recommended models have. There is a thread on recommended Video8 and Hi8 source players here.

Before committing to a camcorder purchase, make sure you download and review the manual to be sure it has the features you want and need. They are mostly available online directly from Sony. There are a few errors in the thread I linked. Also the thread is missing some models that have the needed features so the manuals are always useful for evaluating the potential of models not listed.

Note that some Sony D8 camcorders cannot read an analog tape. The list linked should include only those that can. Yet even for those that can read analog tapes, one caveat is that even they are sometimes NOT able to lock onto the analog signal of some Video8 or Hi8 tapes. This problem seems to depend on the individual device and the tapes themselves so it is not entirely predictable. An actual Hi8 camcorder should not have this problem, but these seem a bit less readily available. Still, many people appear to get good results with a D8 camcorder. Hopefully, you can find something that will work and be cost effective for you.

I'll leave the S-VHS recommendations to others, but knowing if the ES60 provides any TBC-ish benefit should be helpful to the discussion.

BW

Last edited by BW37; 10-17-2021 at 12:55 AM. Reason: clarification
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  #5  
10-17-2021, 02:06 AM
servese43 servese43 is offline
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Most JVC HR-S**** models that aren't on the recommended list fall under that category, but the DNR on them is not very good compared to the DigiPure models with TBC. The DNR on those models softens the picture to an unacceptable degree and the chroma NR turns noise into brownish-greenish blobs. If you're getting a non-TBC model, the best course of action is to capture in "EDIT" mode and denoise in software.
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  #6  
10-17-2021, 05:24 AM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post

I also have an 8mm/Hi8 Sony CCD-TR700 that shows the on screen display, but no image or sound, but the tape is "playing" so I'm assuming that thing is toast.
It may need some expensive repair work, or just an inexpensive tape path clean by a skilled technician. Dirty video heads on an 8mm can cause complete picture and sound loss.

No matter which camera or deck you use for playback, the need to clean the tape path, and keep it clean, will be necessary, sooner or later.
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  #7  
10-17-2021, 11:31 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Not sure what you mean by auto head tracking? If you mean just normal automatic tracking pretty much ever vcr from the late 80s and on other than the big ass broadcast decks have that.

Most of the older generation mostly black externals Sony camcorders are fraught with surface-mount capacitors that go bad and repairing them properly is not really worth it unless you enjoy doing it yourself. I'm a bit unsure whether that's an issue with this model or not. The later ones people often use with TBC/DNR etc don't suffer from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I'm not aware of a VCR with DNR but no TBC as this function is tight to the TBC
There are quit a few actually, including some that are not SVHS. SVHS decks would typically have more advanced Y/C separation than standard VHS decks since it's kind of important for the quality when recording to SVHS from over the air. When doing that digitally became somewhat affordable it was easy for the manufacturer to dual purpose that digitization to also do noise reduction. Also combined with TBC and more advanced NR in later decks though that required more memory so more costly.

The lower-end JVC SVHS from 1998 on (other than a few of the very late ones) do have a "2D digital board", though I think it's usually only used for chroma NR and Y/C separation. Some of slightly older ones e.g the HR-S9400 and S7300 seem to have some digital YNR/CNR but don't know much about those. (In Japan they released some fancier variants of them with "629TBC" etc, but they never made it to US/Europe it seems.) I think the softening mentioned is more due to the analog part of the noise reduction but don't know for sure.

Panasonic also had switchable DNR in many of their their later PAL SVHS models that didn't have TBC, e.g NV-HS870, NVHS880, NV-SV120. Though, at least for the 870 which I have it's not massively effective. I don't know much about the north american ones as those are very different.

There are also some top of the line non-SVHS decks with DNR, e.g Toshiba M782 or Sony SLV-FS99. (And for that matter some of the dvd-recorder combos where the dvd-recorder part features noise reduction in some form.)

I don't think DNR on it's own is all that important though, it's mostly pretty primitive and outside of a few models like the AG1980P/NVHS950/NVHS960 that did some more advanced digital processing, it's just post-processing on final VCR Y/C output, so you can do more advanced stuff in post.
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  #8  
10-17-2021, 11:33 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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He mentioned not getting picture from the video outputs but viewfinder shows the picture fine, so it can't be dirty heads, This suggests a faulty connector board, They tend to get loose or the ribbon cable completly disconnects due to miss handling, For a skilled person this can be checked out by opening the camcorder, but if the camcorder lacks S-Video out and LTBC then it is not worth tempering with.

https://www.youtube.com/user/latoak34/videos
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  #9  
10-17-2021, 01:40 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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Actually, it could still be the heads, or something connected to it.

I see what the camera lens shows me when the lens cap is off, and the camera is in "camera" mode, and I can even record it, but when I play it back it's black with neither sound or video. The one thing that makes me wonder if it's a cap, or the head just being totally dead, is the fact that I get nothing. No glitchy video, or audio. Nadda.

Here are the non E60 vs the E60 from a badly damaged tape I have. No E60 first.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z2ywa3e04l...%2002.mp4?dl=0



https://www.dropbox.com/s/kapen01viljtvzr/Tape%2002%20%28E60%29.mp4?dl=0
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  #10  
10-17-2021, 06:51 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Go the E60!
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  #11  
10-17-2021, 08:32 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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You're not telling me that I found something that you guys didn't already know, are you? I would find that very hard to believe.
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  #12  
10-18-2021, 08:43 AM
Hushpower Hushpower is offline
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Let's just say that there are sceptics that don't think any DVD recorders, apart from the ES-10 and -15, are any good as line TBCs/wiggle-straighteners.

Your two files combined:


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 Panasonic E-60 Wiggle Reduction.mp4 (2.73 MB, 11 downloads)

Last edited by Hushpower; 10-18-2021 at 09:04 AM.
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  #13  
10-18-2021, 09:20 AM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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That's understandable. It's really more of a horizontal "warp" than a "wiggle."

Oh, the E60's front OSD does say Line 1 passthrough on the front when I use it.

-- merged --

So, I have a question then.

Since I've heard that the ES10/15s have noise reduction that's to strong, even when turned off, does that make this better then the ES's?

Since LS hasn't chimed in on this, I don't know if this was a known feature of this product or not.

Also, I thought that this section (guy moving) showed the ghosting that was mentioned regarding the ES10/15s but I went back and looked and it's in the original that I recorded before I got the E60.

Comparison

Edit: Oh, the white balance is a bit different in the two. I don't think I did much to the first one due to the amount of "wiggle damage" there was. Left is without the E60 BTW.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
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  #14  
10-28-2021, 04:47 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Some of this may have already been sorted, but replying to everything anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post
Hi, I'm trying to find an S-VHS that has DNR & head tracking, but not TBC to help keep the price down.
DNR = digital noise reductipn.
The "digital" part is really just extra words. So you're looking for NR in a VCR.
But there are multiple kinds of NR, not a single NR>
JVC with-TBC has multiple NR types, including one married to the TBC.
JVC non-TBC has some as well.
Many years ago, mid 90s, I started out the non-TBC JVCs. Nice upgrade over plain VHS decks. But still not the ultimate quality I was seeking, that required the TBC models (then JVC 9600).

Quote:
My main problem is that there were so many higher end VHS(S) players I have no clue what model numbers, or brands I would be looking for.
PAL or NTSC?
Deck quality is almost more important than exact deck model, except in case where the model line do (or doesn't do) specific things. But just to throw out some models, assuming NTSC, I'm fond of the 3800 and 4800. But there are multiple other decks in the 29xx, 39xx, and 59xx lines that are nice. But with varying quality, some that can matter (or not).

Quote:
In fact, part of the problem is that there are probably to many models for me to search for each of them. :/
Don't randomly search on eBay. It will be crap. I recently bought 3 decks on eBay, to re-test things. All 3 were bad. Furthermore, at least one of the "tested" units had an issue that prevented any testing (ie, it was BS claim). A future post, or maybe even a Youtube video (I'm considering adding some videos there, to combat all the nonsense videos).

Quote:
BTW, for TBC(ish) I'm using a DMR-E60 with pass-through. I don't see it mentioned here much. Mainly see people talking about the ES-10/15's, so I'm not sure what the differences are. I'm guessing there's no DNR, as there's nothing in the menu about DNR.
NR isn't in the main menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post
Thanks for the advice. So do most or all S-VHS players have auto-head tracking?
Auto (not "auto head") tracking is found on almost everything from the 90s/00s. And you don't want a crappy 80s deck.

Quote:
Also, the hardware that isn't working is a Hi8/8mm recorder, not a DVD recorder.
I can see the OSD, but there's no sound or video, so I'm assuming it isn't worth bothering with.
Not worth bothering with. Use a quality camera,from the recommended list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BW37 View Post
Note that some Sony D8 camcorders cannot read an analog tape.
And convert to DV (lose quality), not good.

Quote:
Still, many people appear to get good results with a D8 camcorder. Hopefully, you can find something that will work and be cost effective for you.
I have and use both D8 and Hi8 cameras. Why? They're different. The tape playback can vary. The D8 is used far less often for Hi8, but plays tapes the Hi8 has trouble with. Sort of like havin both JVC and Panasonic SVHS deck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by servese43 View Post
Most JVC HR-S**** models that aren't on the recommended list fall under that category, but the DNR on them is not very good compared to the DigiPure models with TBC. The DNR on those models softens the picture to an unacceptable degree and the chroma NR turns noise into brownish-greenish blobs. If you're getting a non-TBC model, the best course of action is to capture in "EDIT" mode and denoise in software.
Huh? Brown/green blobs? You must have had a defective deck. No.

Those decks are fine for NR. The chroma NR is rudimentary at best (NR married to TBC is good there), but inter/intra is fine. It does soften some, but that's NR. That non-TBC deck NR does nothing for timing issues, of course.

Not everything can be done in software, not better, or not at all. Some requires hardware, and always will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post
You're not telling me that I found something that you guys didn't already know, are you? I would find that very hard to believe.
Not that we didn't know, but that a lack of confirmation exists, and a lack of variation exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post
Since I've heard that the ES10/15s have noise reduction that's to strong, even when turned off, does that make this better then the ES's?
Since LS hasn't chimed in on this, I don't know if this was a known feature of this product or not.
on = high, off = low
It's always on, and how detrimental it is depends on the source. (The same is true of certain JVC NR, some sources don't play well with it.)

Quote:
Edit: Oh, the white balance is a bit different in the two. I don't think I did much to the first one due to the amount of "wiggle damage" there was. Left is without the E60 BTW.
PAL Panasonic records have known luma shifting. It's a DVD recorder, not a TBC, and doesn't have the transparency of a quality TBC. It's cheap, a TBC(ish), and that's one of the several tradeoff. Image quality is reduced in multiple various ways.

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  #15  
10-28-2021, 05:56 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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Thanks LS

I am looking at NTSC.

Avoid eBay. Got it.

The white balance could be from the E60, but I'll have to check, as that's something I'd want to be aware of. My guess though is that it's from me doing colour corrections that I didn't bother doing on the one without the line TBC fixes.

DM
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  #16  
10-28-2021, 06:03 PM
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BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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I know of but 1 S-VHS machine with DNR, no TBC, the very rare Sharp VC S-100U.
By many accounts a nice machine. One just popped up, on eBay.
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  #17  
10-28-2021, 09:23 PM
servese43 servese43 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Huh? Brown/green blobs? You must have had a defective deck. No.

Those decks are fine for NR. The chroma NR is rudimentary at best (NR married to TBC is good there), but inter/intra is fine. It does soften some, but that's NR. That non-TBC deck NR does nothing for timing issues, of course.

Not everything can be done in software, not better, or not at all. Some requires hardware, and always will.
I'm probably describing what the CNR does badly, but it doesn't completely get rid of chroma noise, and gets rid of much less chroma noise than CCD. I also understand that most of this de-noising sort of stuff is much better done in hardware. At the moment I capture with my deck in EDIT mode and remove only the chroma noise in software, using CCD.
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  #18  
10-29-2021, 04:14 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
At the moment I capture with my deck in EDIT mode and remove only the chroma noise in software, using CCD
The main-NR and TBC functions are tied together.
We had a discussion here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...apture-(again)

"Edit" mode (that I rarely use) turns off only some of the NR circuits.
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  #19  
10-29-2021, 07:34 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Some of this may have already been sorted...
LS, from your list of 8mm/Hi8 recorders that you have listed at the top of the thread, it mentions TBC, stereo, and S-Video. Is that full TBC or line TBC? Also, do those recorders also play the older versions of the 8mm format?

Now, I'm probably asking for a golden egg here, so feel free to laugh at me, but do any of them also have TBC (if it's full, and not line) enabled pass-through? I ask in case I can pay more for an 8mm/Hi8 recorder, and maybe less for an S-VCR.

It's funny to see the posts about the AIW cards. I remember years ago saying to myself, "Why would I pay for that? What would I ever need to capture??" lol *sigh*

As for actually buying these things, there's nothing in my local area, which is hampered by being in Canada, but there might be a shop in a town an hour or so from me. If not, I'm looking at a long trip to Toronto unless I want to risk having old delicate parts being thrown around in shipping. I'm hoping that any shop that actually repairs and sells stuff like this will be legit. I did say "hope."

As for the stuff I've read about using an old PC with WinXP, I don't know if I still have a computer with PCI. I gave one of my older computers away many years ago to a friend of the families son who couldn't afford one.

Thanks,

DM
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  #20  
10-29-2021, 08:21 PM
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Line, not frame. Never frame embedded. Must get external frame + internal line.

Don't forget the marketplace subforum in the forum.
http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/marketplace

XP runs on computers as new as 8th gen Intel (~2017). Capturing on IDE drives is painful. I only do SATA systems.

AIW PCI (not PCIe), USB, AGP.

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