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  #1  
11-25-2021, 02:31 AM
Rex Martinez Rex Martinez is offline
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Hello,

I'm trying to Digitize my PAL and NTSC VHS Tapes over a year now and i tried it now with various sources (my first choice was an dvd recorder but i wasnt happy with the result)

Here some inforations with my current state:

I live in Germany

My operating system is Windows 10

I want to capture PAL and NTSC VHS Tapes in the best way Possible

PAL VCR: PANASONIC AG-7350
NTSC VCR: PANASONIC AG7300

Capture Card: Blackmagic Intensity Pro (2009 Version)

PAL Time Base Corrector: Electronic Design TBC Enhancer

So, now i have the huge Problem, that i still have Dropped Frames in my NTSC Recordings and i'm frustated with it. I have some very Bad PAL VHS Tapes too, where i got still Dropped Frames with the TBC Enhancer, but my Main Problem are the NTSC Recordings.

I know from other Forums that people told me that the Blackmagic is very Frame Dropping and i have to buy an NTSC TBC for My US Tapes and an PAL TBC for my German Tapes, it is so that i've spend thousands of Dollars for my current Setup and i'm now at the Point where i got really frustaded with it. I just want to Capture the tapes exactly like they're where shown as on the TV, without Dropped Frames or Half Images ect.

Now my question is, does someone know an Capture Card that can avoid Dropped Frames completely? (no matter how bad the Quality and errors of the tape is)

The thing is that in Germany, its extremely hard to Find and good NTSC Time Base Corrector here which i guess is needed for the improve of my NTSC VHS Tapes.

Can someone here recommend me an Good ( if not) the best Capture Card for VHS capturing?

Stay Safe and well

Rex
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  #2  
11-25-2021, 08:12 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Electronic Design TBC-Enhancer should be PAL only.

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...en-und-andere/
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  #3  
11-25-2021, 08:19 AM
Rex Martinez Rex Martinez is offline
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Hi,

yes i know that i use the TBC Enhancer only for my PAL VHS, sadly i dont have an NTSC TBC yet
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  #4  
11-25-2021, 09:04 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Certain DVD-recorders can work as TBC alternatives for doing NTSC in PAL land. PAL Panasonic ones (from 2005 models like the ES10 and on at least) support standard NTSC input and work just as well as with PAL input (though with the caveats of bright parts potentially being a bit blown out if the video level is not lowered in some way, and will act up with copy-protected tapes.) Also provides much better jitter correction than most standalone TBC units.

Standalone newer Pioneer (DVR 430/530 and newer) and Sony (RDR-HX750 and newer) dvrs are also an option, and in addition to standard NTSC also supports NTSC 4.43 like the AG7350 will output in NTSC mode and PAL60 which many PAL consumer decks output when playing NTSC tapes. (Though they're not quite as effective on large errors as the panasonics.) The AG7300 does not have hi-fi I believe so if you need to do a NTSC tape with hi-fi you would need to use the AG7350 set to NTSC or something else.

I've used both of these options with an USB3 intensity shuttle and an AG7350 (before it started having issues) and it works pretty well, better than pretty much any capture card on it's own.

With those broadcast units you can even lock the servo to the output of the TBC or dvdr using the external sync options, though I don't know whether it helps any or not.
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  #5  
11-25-2021, 09:59 AM
Rex Martinez Rex Martinez is offline
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Thank you for your Answer, the thing is that i already had an DVD Recorder and i had trouble with the Macrovision (even for PAL and NTSC VHS as well, who dont even have Macrovision on it), because the Recorder stopped the capturing very often and he also could just the 4.43 "fake" NTSC and the results where bad because the playback was with an large black stripe underside the video.

i would want to capture my NTSC VHS in the real 3.58 NTSC, that why i even bought an VCR who can play the true NTSC.
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  #6  
11-25-2021, 10:46 AM
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BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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I recently bought ($9) a Com World CMD-1200 standards converter, only because it claimed to have TBC and it was $9.
What a deal, it works great, apparently passes MV also as I have had no warnings.
You might try and score something like it, though I'm told this is a rare model, long ago discontinued, and Lord Smurf says not all of them work so well, depending on the production run. I have seen other standards converters used as TBC, on Youtube, but you'll have to look around because $2,000 US is a big commitment for a DataVideo 1000 or similar.
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  #7  
11-25-2021, 01:18 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Your choice of capture card is a wrong decision, Always ask before buying any gear don't assume every card works as it should or as claimed to be by the manufacturer, HD and 4K capture cards are not made for VHS, The pro capture cards suitable for VHS and other analog SD formats are made in the early 2000's. That said dropped frames is not always the capture card to blame, CPU resources, OS and drivers could be the issue. Have you tried using MediaExpress capture software from BM, It's a lightweight app and doesn't take up CPU resources like vdub.

https://www.youtube.com/user/latoak34/videos
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  #8  
11-25-2021, 01:26 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Martinez View Post
Thank you for your Answer, the thing is that i already had an DVD Recorder and i had trouble with the Macrovision (even for PAL and NTSC VHS as well, who dont even have Macrovision on it), because the Recorder stopped the capturing very often and he also could just the 4.43 "fake" NTSC and the results where bad because the playback was with an large black stripe underside the video.
It looks like you have used the dvd-recorder for the capturing. But you should only use it as tbc replacement and capture with the intensity. Your capture chain should be vcr-dvdrecorder-(electronic design tbc enhancer)-Intensity

If i remember correctly, none of your jvcs have a line tbc. One of the recommended dvd recorders would greatly improve your recording especially if you have bad recordings. The TBC-Enhancer is only a frame tbc.

Do you have the manual for the tbc-enhancer?
The tbc enhancer should reliably remove macrovision. But the RGB buttons should only be used discreetly. Large changes can disable the TBC enhancer. There are several firmware versions of the enhancer. Which version has your enhancer? Press the Freeze button & T-code button at the same time and the display will show a V... number.

What windows version and recording software are you using? I can only recommend Media Express in connection with the Intensity and there also not every version works. My recommendation would be the 10.3.5 (win 7).

Also i hope you are not recording to a usb3 hard drive or the system hard drive.
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  #9  
11-25-2021, 02:02 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
The pro capture cards suitable for VHS and other analog SD formats are made in the early 2000's.
What cards are these that are specifically made for recording VHS tapes?
Many manufacturers have promised and advertised this. But without additional hardware, I know of almost none with which you can achieve good recordings.
There is no such thing as the best or perfect capture card, every card has weak points, regardless of the manufacturer. That's why many of us have several capture cards, video recorders, TBCs, DVD recorders.
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  #10  
11-25-2021, 04:41 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
What cards are these that are specifically made for recording VHS tapes?
At the end of the analog era when studios were transitioning from analog (such as R2R, u-Matic, Betacam, Pro VHS/S-VHS, ED-CAM, Pro Hi8) to digital, Studios had two ways to transition, digitize all the materials to digital tapes and use the new digital decks to broadcast the digitized tapes when needed, Or keep the old players and add converters to them to integrate the signal into the digital transmission, remember computers and hard drives back then where too mature for such high quality large amount of data transfers, the only way to do it is to use large size digital tapes or broadcast from the original tapes using a digital converter box as mentioned.

Coincidentally both tasks needed the exact same device, because studios decided to stay on BNC cabling due to high cost of replacing cables and the labor needed to install them, So the port of choice was SDI for all new digital tape players (Serial Digital Interface, carries both video and audio on the same old BNC cable and connector), All what the converters needed to do for both digitizing the analog tapes and live broadcasting analog tapes is to convert the signal from analog (composite or Y/C) via BNC ports to digital out via another BNC port (SDI) according to the rec.601 standard which Sony based their first D1 standard upon for backing up analog tapes to D1, the first generation digital tape recorder prior to digital Betacam.

Among the manufacturers that made such converters (capture devices if you will) are Aja, BlackMagic, Snell & Wilcox, Ensemble Designs, Grass Valley ...etc. Those devices had good ADC chips in them, all have signal timing capabilities and all adhere to the same standard carrying an uncompressed SD 4:2:2 8/10bit video signal at 4:3 aspect ratio 480i for NTSC and 576i for PAL/SECAM, Audio @ 48KHz 16/24bit, and they all use SDI port to carry both video and audio by a single wire.

Fast forward few years when capturing to a hard drive was possible, first using compression schemes and later on used uncompressed when HDD storage and CPU speed improved, All consumer capture cards and devices followed the pro trend, used the same rec.601 standard, some had timing capabilities, some are sold separately as stand alone TBC's or PCI TBC cards, with the exception of using RCA, S-Video for inputs and USB/Firewire for outputs instead of BNC's for inputs and outputs, But all had decent quality results.

Fast forward 2 decades or so, both pro and consumer capture cards and devices gotten worse, Pro focused on HD and 4K and dropped support for analog and SD video, and consumer ones focused on profit and low cost manufacturing, dropping all aspects of signal timing, deviating from the founding fathers' standard for converting analog to digital, using very cheap low quality ADC chips to the point where an Ezcap is sold for $2 (really?), the result is the thousands of complaints you read online from people buying cheap devices or modern pro devices that don't work properly.

And to add insult to injury, operating systems nowadays are not designed for such legacy tasks, One of the ways to get around their limitation or should I say bureaucracy is to use a camera stream software with its own drivers since stock drivers for capturing video are no longer available, Such software are not compatible with legacy SD video standards, 480p is just an after thought.

Last edited by latreche34; 11-25-2021 at 04:57 PM.
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  #11  
11-26-2021, 04:17 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
Now my question is, does someone know an Capture Card that can avoid Dropped Frames completely? (no matter how bad the Quality and errors of the tape is)
You on a quest for the holy grail. The original BMD Intensity Pro is known to be fussy about input signals being precisely to standards. Even slight variations in timing/sync can cause dropped frames.
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  #12  
11-26-2021, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Martinez View Post
but i wasnt happy with the result)
Be specific here. You're essentially asking for best quality, but also asking to not spend money. That doesn't jive. Cutting costs means compromises. But we have to know what you didn't like, so as not to make a compromise that nets the same unsatisfactory results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Martinez View Post
does someone know an Capture Card that can avoid Dropped Frames completely? (no matter how bad the Quality and errors of the tape is)
That doesn't exist. Never has, never will. If such a thing existed, don't you think we'd all be using it? Because nobody enjoys buying TBCs, costly boring boxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Certain DVD-recorders can work as TBC alternatives for doing NTSC in PAL land.
Sort of. You still have the negatives of the DVD recorder to deal with. The Panasonics, for example, have luma issues, over aggressive NR, etc. And even then, not a TBC, just a DVD recorder. There will be a transfer fail rate. There's a a reason that TBCs still sell, and it's not because of lack of knowledge (that the DVD recorders exist). It really depends on sources. ES10/15/etc was never meant to replace a frame TBC, but to complement it (line TBC, stronger than VCRs, best used when net result is better than standard S-VHS VCR with line TBC > frame TBC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Martinez View Post
Thank you for your Answer, the thing is that i already had an DVD Recorder and i had trouble with the Macrovision
Yep, frame TBC required here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab View Post
I have seen other standards converters used as TBC,
Almost none do. And even those that do, often has severe quality issues. The CMD-850 model, for example, blurs and disjoints the interlace very badly. It's completely butchered video. It's not watchable on the capture preview, much less a big HDTV. It's all stutters and motion errors. That model is easier to find, not quite as rare, because it's crap that nobody wants to keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Your choice of capture card is a wrong decision, Always ask before buying any gear don't assume every card works as it should or as claimed to be by the manufacturer, HD and 4K capture cards are not made for VHS,
Correct.
Albeit a secondary issue here, the signal has issues well before the capture card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
none of your jvcs have a line tbc. One of the recommended dvd recorders would greatly improve your recording especially if you have bad recordings. The TBC-Enhancer is only a frame tbc.

Do you have the manual for the tbc-enhancer? The tbc enhancer should reliably remove macrovision. But the RGB buttons should only be used discreetly. Large changes can disable the TBC enhancer. There are several firmware versions of the enhancer. Which version has your enhancer? Press the Freeze button & T-code button at the same time and the display will show a V... number.

Also i hope you are not recording to a usb3 hard drive or the system hard drive.
Good advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
There is no such thing as the best or perfect capture card, every card has weak points, regardless of the manufacturer. That's why many of us have several capture cards, video recorders, TBCs, DVD recorders.
Eh ... certain AIW cards are arguably "best" in terms of video quality. The main problem is related to the computer (OS, slots). Certain TBCs and DVD recorders are also best, or rather several are tied for best. I understand you, but others may take this to mean "anything is fine", when that entirely the false takeaway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
(SDI)
capturing to a hard drive was possible, first using compression schemes and later on used uncompressed when HDD storage and CPU speed improved
Fast forward 2 decades or so, both pro and consumer capture cards and devices gotten worse, Pro focused on HD and 4K and dropped support for analog and SD video, and consumer ones focused on profit and low cost manufacturing, dropping all aspects of signal timing, deviating from the founding fathers' standard for converting analog to digital, using very cheap low quality
That's a pretty decent history crash course. The TLR is quoted.
- 90s SDI pro
- 90s Pentium III consumer crappy DV compresssion
- 00s MPEG and uncompressed, best era of capturing
- 10s junk USB Chinse card, HD/4K poor SD handling
- 20s same as 10s so far

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Martinez
...
Circling back around here ... you need a frame TBC. It cannot be avoided here. You can chase your tail, but it probably won't end well. I do have a certain Tevion ATI clone, which usually ignored MV. But you're still left with other non-MV aspects of the signal. Whether it transfers well, or at all, without TBC, is still anybody's guess.

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