Quantcast Panasonic DMR-ES15, enable or disable DNR? - digitalFAQ Forum
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01-16-2022, 08:57 PM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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After reading dozens of hours of posts and guides on this amazing forum, I sometimes think I missed something obvious. The premise in this question about Panasonic ES10 setting suggestions is that DNR (aka NR) should be turned off. The replies don't dissuade him of this idea. I though that the ES10 (and ES15) should have all the bells and whistles turned on in order to perform their magic pass-through magic for the lesser SVHS players that don't have the Line TBC feature? Did I misunderstand? If the DNR is turned off, what else does the ES10 (and ES15) do?
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01-16-2022, 09:14 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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- NR = noise reduction.
- DNR = digital NR, aka NR done in hardware or software
DNR and NR can be used interchangably.

- Line TBC isn't NR.
- NR isn't line TBC.
Those are separate concepts.
Yes, very often, those processes are merged. For example, S-VHS VCRs are usually TBC+DNR. But TBC doesn't require NR, nor NR a TBC. In fact, JVC VCRs have NR separate from the TBC+DNR, aka "picture modes" (or B.E.S.T. in PAL)

So the ES10/15 have lien TBC, regardless of any NR settings.

ES10/15 NR is aggressive. It's never off, but the "off" is a low. So don't think of it as on/off, but low/high. All VHS needs some % of filtering, and all recorders/decks apply NR to a degree.

Sometimes the ES10/15 NR looks better on than off.

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01-17-2022, 08:53 AM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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Thanks for the clarification on on/off versus high/low. When you capture from a tape, do you routinely capture samples using each workflow combination (including turning on and off settings) and visually see which looks best on a tv? And then you go back and capture the whole thing?
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01-17-2022, 12:41 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
-
For example, S-VHS VCRs are usually TBC+DNR. But TBC doesn't require NR, nor NR a TBC. In fact, JVC VCRs have NR separate from the TBC+DNR, aka "picture modes" (or B.E.S.T. in PAL)

ES10/15 NR is aggressive. It's never off, but the "off" is a low. So don't think of it as on/off, but low/high. All VHS needs some % of filtering, and all recorders/decks apply NR to a degree.
If you repeat it often enough, everyone will believe it soon....

My experience and that of other forum members is different:

Quote:
Originally Posted by scharfis_brain View Post
The European ES10 has a noisefilter that can be turned off completely. Also it does NOT do any MPEG-Preprocessing. I've done extensive tests regarding this matter.

It just passes through the signal and removes any tearing/jitter from the instable signal. There is no posterization.
The signal (regarding timing) is completely pristine no matter what has been sent to the input. The capture card will always see a proper signal to lock on. No Framedrops will occur. Of course in tough situations this signal may contain garbage image, because the ES-10 itself wasn't able to lock onto its input.

The only drawback on my ES-10 I was able to see is an additional vertical chroma shift by one line due to the necessary PAL-chroma decoding (delayline) of the S-Video input. But that is easily fixed in post processing.

The PAL-Version of the ES-10 does no denoising, when NR is set to "off". I did thorough tests. No temporal or spatial smearing at all.
If the ES-10 would have done the denoising anyways, any of my deshaking attempts would have failed due to smeared video. It didn't.
Also the PAL-Version of the ES-10 does not introduce banding or other artifacts.

This is the exact reason, why I stay away from JVC VCRs equipped with TBC and 3DNR: 3DNR cannot be switched off in JVC VCRs. This made my previous attemts to do deshaking impossible due to severe smear.

JVC VCRs seem to apply some sort of temporal denoising when the TBC is enabled.
You certainly don't want that, because it temporally smears the video and limits post-processing in software be a fair amount.
I really prefer a higher image noise level (not jitter/tearing) over a temporally smeared output of JVC recorders. I always can remove temporal noise in AVIsynth quite effectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The TBC in the VCR digitizes and buffers some amount of the video signal (not sure how much). It tries to locate the start/end of each line, and resizes it to the correct length and replaces the horizontal synchronization signal (that tells where a line starts) with a clean newly generated one, and converts it back to an analog signal.
additionally, in the JVCs, the same chip also runs digital noise reduction on the digitized signal, which especially helps with chroma noise. This comes in addition to the more rudimentary analog noise reduction in the VCR.

On JVC VHS VCRs the DNR function is tied to the TBC setting, the setting enables both the TBC and digital noise reduction (there is analog NR separately which is impacted by the EDIT or picture setting depending on model, which is also in the non-SVHS ones.), Judging by the techincal manual/sheets the SVHS/Digital board may do a bit of NR even with the TBC turned off and in non-TBC SVHS models, though much less than with the TBC active and may or may not be affected by EDIT mode juding by some threads.


The ES10 can buffer two (or more) frames (don't know how much exactly.) It will digitize the video, try to resize the video lines based on detected line starting points in the process (like the VCR TBC). It can also apply noise reduction if enabled (the PAL ES10 doesn't have the permanent-on posterization effect that the US one as far as I know.), and show the on-screen display over the video.

It will then convert the digitized frames/fields back to a stable analog signal with new vertical and horizontal synchronization signals. Later DVRs could also output digitally over HDMI. I can't say for 100% sure with the NTSC models, but at least the on the PAL ones the output is a fully stable video signal (though it will have baked in any errors that the ES10 could not deal with from the original video from the VCR.) This means that it can be helpful even though the VCR TBC is turned on.

What it can do though I think is to add in a macrovision signal if it thinks there is one on the input side which can upset some capture cards. (Though in that case the video tends to get messed up by the ES10 in any case.) and it can turn off the output if it thinks there is nothing connected to the input. I've never had any issues with just sending the output from it straight to a capture card, but YMMV.
It looks like the "NR" is a special feature on the JVC S-VCR's and the hell on earth on the Panasonic DMRs.
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