#1  
05-24-2021, 07:59 AM
Shakedown St. Shakedown St. is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Boston
Posts: 35
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I'm doing a weird project right now that involves multiple formats. I want to sync these formats.

I plan on running my VCR output into Betacam and recording on Betacam for backup. Someone informed me that if I don't genlock then my image will roll if that makes sense. Their exact words were servo locked to the sync output. My VCR is not capable of doing that without help.

My question is, what would my equipment lineup look like? What equipment would I need to buy to make composite coming out of VCR compatible with a Betacam setup?
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
05-24-2021, 08:43 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Genlock is for syncing two (or more) signals.

VCR (VHS?) into Betacam -- ie, daisy chaining VCRs, old school -- will need a line+frame TBC, not a genlock.

VCR needs line TBC.
Then chase with external framesync TBC.

So VCR+TBC > TBC > Betacam deck.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #3  
05-24-2021, 09:15 AM
Shakedown St. Shakedown St. is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Boston
Posts: 35
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Genlock is for syncing two (or more) signals.

VCR (VHS?) into Betacam -- ie, daisy chaining VCRs, old school -- will need a line+frame TBC, not a genlock.

VCR needs line TBC.
Then chase with external framesync TBC.

So VCR+TBC > TBC > Betacam deck.
Interesting. Okay. That makes a lot more sense. Get ready for my dumb idea.

I was told that Betacam won't accept an output from a VCR unless the frame is locked. My dumb idea was seeing whether I could use the Betacam's TBC instead because of its unique chrome/luma and noise reduction controls. I may be wrong but would running a signal through a TBC twice not be ideal?

My friend in question has a Panasonic AG7350, and he explains that you can lock the servo to the sync output and his the Betacam should accept a signal and it's TBC will work. Perhaps that means he has the TBC engaged twice. I am going to find out.

Last edited by Shakedown St.; 05-24-2021 at 09:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
05-24-2021, 09:36 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
I was told that Betacam won't accept an output from a VCR unless the frame is locked.
I don't know what this means. It's technobabble.

Quote:
My dumb idea was seeing whether I could use the Betacam's TBC instead
Huh? Instead of what?

Quote:
because of its unique chrome/luma and noise reduction controls
What does that have to do with TBC?

Quote:
I may be wrong but would running a signal through a TBC twice not be ideal?
It depends on factors. For example, "TBC" is a wide term, can mean many things. You can (and often should) chain certain TBCs.

Quote:
lock the servo to the sync output
Huh?

Quote:
Perhaps that means he has the TBC engaged
Probably this.

Quote:
twice.
Twice? Huh?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #5  
05-24-2021, 10:42 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,155
Thanked 357 Times in 293 Posts
Generally you can just plug in a video source and a deck will record it. The servo lock/signal is only really needed if you are using the decks in an editing setup in order to do frame accurate edits.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
05-24-2021, 11:42 AM
Shakedown St. Shakedown St. is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Boston
Posts: 35
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Generally you can just plug in a video source and a deck will record it. The servo lock/signal is only really needed if you are using the decks in an editing setup in order to do frame accurate edits.
That is exactly what I'm implying. So is there a way to servo lock/signal if my VCR doesn't have this option? I was curious what exactly a servo lock/signal means and if there were any external devices I could buy that could perform this option if my VCR does not have this feature so it would work with Betacam.

-- merged --

Alrighty, allow me to clarify. So the Sony PVW-2800 Betacam VCR can act as a pass-through TBC according to a few I have spoken with. I am interested in buying one on the used market for that purpose, however I don't want to be disappointed with my purchase if it won't work with my VCR. From a very old thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oln View Post
I also found the TBC on the Sony PVW-2800 Betacam VCR also acted on video passed through that unit, tho unless used with a Panasonic AG7350 with servo locked to the sync output the image would roll. The reason for this is some of them have component video, and it makes sense to route video through digital/tbc unit as part of converting to/from component as the TBC unit decodes it's input to digital component internally anyhow.
So what exactly is this implying and how would I be able to get a solid signal from my VCR? I'm very anxious to buy up a few old units and fool around with them and see what results I can get out of them. I want to find out what they are capable of doing for my VCR setup.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
05-24-2021, 11:51 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,680
Thanked 447 Times in 384 Posts
I haven't done this exact thing, but I have played around with passing vhs output through a betacam deck (PVW-2800) for it's TBC (which didn't do too great of a job and was quite wiggly, not sure if that's the tbc being mer or just bad electronics).
Unless I hooked the sync input of the VCR (an AG7350) (or used a normal vhs vcr) to sync or composite out of the betacam, the image I got out would roll. Maybe the TBCs in these can't buffer enough for a full frame. Alternatively, if you went through a tbc or something else that generated a fresh stable signal, maybe it would help to also connect to the sync input of the betacam deck.

EDIT: You quoted me while I was writing my post heh
Reply With Quote
  #8  
05-24-2021, 12:01 PM
Shakedown St. Shakedown St. is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Boston
Posts: 35
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I haven't done this exact thing, but I have played around with passing vhs output through a betacam deck (PVW-2800) for it's TBC (which didn't do too great of a job and was quite wiggly, not sure if that's the tbc being mer or just bad electronics).
Unless I hooked the sync input of the VCR (an AG7350) (or used a normal vhs vcr) to sync or composite out of the betacam, the image I got out would roll. Maybe the TBCs in these can't buffer enough for a full frame. Alternatively, if you went through a tbc or something else that generated a fresh stable signal, maybe it would help to also connect to the sync input of the betacam deck.

EDIT: You quoted me while I was writing my post heh
Hello stranger! Okay I understand now. Then it probably would not be good to route the feed going into inputs from a consumer vcr.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
05-24-2021, 12:02 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Betacam deck needs clean signal input.
Dirty VHS signal not clean.
So cannot input VHS signal to use Betacam as a passthrough.

Why not the ES10/15?

Noting that passthrough is never as good as VCRs with line TBCs, and external framesync TBCs.

This thread is confusing me.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #10  
05-24-2021, 12:45 PM
Shakedown St. Shakedown St. is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Boston
Posts: 35
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
If anyone is curious so here is the game plan. I'm going to post the results in this thread and over @ VideoHelp.

Maybe this will make a little more sense. So this all started with my frustration from buying a pro VCR deck and realizing it will only play SP speed. I did not realize this. However a lot of my camcorder tapes are EP/LP from home videos I want to save. I'm a little late to the party. Now there are dramatically easier ways to do this but I want to perform a series of experiments. I suspect this is going to be around a six month project to get up and running.

So my equipment setup will involve a Sony SVO-5800, JVC HR-S7100u I bought specifically because it does not have TBC or DNR, PVW-2800 Betacam, and a JVC BRS unit if necessary. Each unit will be getting a grounds up restoration. My goal is to stretch the format to its highest branch. I am determined to find another pass-through TBC that does not involve a DataVideo which I was not impressed with, another alternative to an ES10/15, don't want to invest my time in a working 1980, and don't want to spend the money tracking down a Panny 8700.

My entire signal output will be digital component perhaps and maybe that could mean a cleaner signal. I may not have a use a Betacam VCR at all but I doubt it. It's all very unchartered territory. The results may turn out to be less than satisfactory, but I want to find out what happens with recapped video and TBC boards.

Benny K

Last edited by Shakedown St.; 05-24-2021 at 01:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
05-24-2021, 12:53 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,257
Thanked 537 Times in 497 Posts
Basically the you want to fix a problem with a microwave sized machine when you can just get a good S-VHS VCR with line TBC and a capture card from back in the day under Win 7 and you may get lucky capturing just like that. Instead, using low end VCR with composite, probably an easycap under Win 10 and top it off with an ancient piece of gear that was not designed for that purpose at all.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
05-24-2021, 01:36 PM
Shakedown St. Shakedown St. is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Boston
Posts: 35
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Basically the you want to fix a problem with a microwave sized machine when you can just get a good S-VHS VCR with line TBC and a capture card from back in the day under Win 7 and you may get lucky capturing just like that. Instead, using low end VCR with composite, probably an easycap under Win 10 and top it off with an ancient piece of gear that was not designed for that purpose at all.
To be frank it's because I already spent the cheddar (don't ask) and want to get some use out of em.

Also not easycap but will be using Blackmagic HDMI and upscaling 1440p to keep 3:4 ratio.

It may turn out to be pretty pretty pretty good. My curiosity is peaked.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
05-27-2021, 06:16 AM
Alessandro Machi Alessandro Machi is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
The Panasonic 7350 (the player / recorder version) and the player only version (I don't recall the model number, it was either a 7300 or maybe it was a 7100 or 7150?) actually output the best quality 6 hour extended play of any VHS/SVHS machine ever made. However, there are a couple of gotcha's.

The 7350 will not play in four hour mode, just 6 hour and 2 hour. And, when in six hour mode it will not play back the hi-fi channel, which is why it plays the 6 hour mode so nicely, the heads are too big to scan both the image and the high-fi so it ony scans the image. However, the linear tracks, which sound dreadful in six hour mode, do have dolby noise reduction so if one has the proper EQ set up they can cobble between dolby noise reduction on and off versus using a some type of EQ adjustment. Ideally, doing a picture pass with audio as reference, then doing a second pass on another machine that will play the HI-FI back is the best scenario in many cases.

There is an advance sync function on the unit so you can feed some type of black burst signal to both the 7350 and the betacam sp as a way to lock them together. However, if you can find an external TBC for the 7350 and then send that signal in via the S-Video connection to the betacam sp deck, that may be your best option.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
05-27-2021, 06:34 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Machi View Post
The Panasonic 7350 ... actually output the best quality 6 hour extended play of any VHS/SVHS machine ever made.
How does it compare to the Panasonic AG-1980P? Because it's pretty universally regarded as best at SLP.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #15  
05-27-2021, 06:56 AM
Alessandro Machi Alessandro Machi is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
The Panasonic 1980 was probably one of the most utilitarian VCR's ever made. I never used one but I think it would switch between all three playback speeds automatically? I seem to recall it could over heat if not properly positioned and elevated.

In the six hour mode picture quality wise nothing was better than the Panasonic 7350. However, the 1980 probably plays back the HI-FI channel in the six hour mode which the 7350 cannot do, and the 1980 should play the four hour mode back, and I presume with HI-FI, while the 7350 does neither.

Definitely a form vs function issue. If one wants the absolute best picture quality from a six hour recording speed, the Panasonic 7350 is the machine to use. JVC made their own version of the 7350, I never used it, I don't know how close in quality it was to the 7350, I don't recall the model number either.

Sometimes the HI-FI audio matters as much as the picture so the 1980's definitely rule in that regard and also if they play all three recording speeds. I think the 1980 has a Time Base Stabilizer???? Which is basically a Time Base corrector but without the proc amps for making adjustments. But I am not sure about that. I always used RS-422 control so I primarily used video gear that locked up with RS-422. The 7350 actually worked off of RS-232 I think it was called? I had a one of a kind special box made that would convert the RS-232 to RS-422 and was able to lock up 6 hour VHS and S-VHS tapes to my betacam sp. Sure was trippy. I had to do a 10 second pre-roll so the RS-422 controller could lock the two together before the edit point occurred.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
05-27-2021, 07:42 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Machi View Post
I never used one ... nothing was better than the Panasonic 7350.
Hmm..

I'd like to see a direct comparison.

From the technical limitations you describe, it couldn't have had the best tracking. Tracking quality is what the AG-1980 is respected for. But overall, the JVC S-VHS decks give better quality.

Quote:
I think the 1980 has a Time Base Stabilizer????
It has a field TBC -- aka multi-line TBC, aka "infinite window" TBC.

Quote:
Which is basically a Time Base corrector but without the proc amps
Huh? TBC has nothing to do with proc amp. Some TBCs have proc amps integrated, some do not. Some TBCs have other things integrated as well (genlocks, generators, etc), and again with or without proc amps.

Quote:
I always used RS-422 control
How do that work for you now? I would have thought all software controllers and ports would have been obsolete by now. RS-232/422 is essentially an ancient COM port comm standard from the 1980s. Even most 90s gear dropped it.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #17  
05-27-2021, 08:50 AM
Alessandro Machi Alessandro Machi is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
The 7350 had a manual tracking dial. To get full use of manual tracking the Channel 2 VU meter had a tracking option selector. I could then ride the tracking dial until the VU meter moved to the farthest right it could go. I also used a TV monitor with under scan and cross pulse. I would manually adjust tracking until I got the best looking image on cross pulse and under scan along with the VU meter set to tracking. For 2 hour speed if the tracking was off the Hi-FI would click off and the picture would get grainy.

If the original recording had a wobbly tracking alignment that could present a problem but I don't recall it happening more than once or twice, if that.

The 7350 was the only unit I used that had RS-232, Everything else was RS-422. i stopped editing when everything went to a computer screen because my mind does not work that way. When I edit I like to see all of my controls physically represented in front of me, not on pull down menus. I would love to see a Video Controller that could accommodate memory sticks.

TBC means Time Base Corrector. To have a corrector built in, there needs to be proc amp controls for hue, set-up, black level, and chroma. If a unit does not have the four pro amp controls than it probably has a Time Base Stabilizer, which is as good as a Time Base Corrector, it just doesn't have the four proc amp controls on it.

www.linkedin.com/in/alessandromachi/
Reply With Quote
  #18  
05-27-2021, 09:32 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Machi View Post
To have a corrector built in, there needs to be proc amp controls for hue, set-up, black level, and chroma.
That's not correct.
TBC does not require proc amp, and quite a few do not have one.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #19  
05-27-2021, 01:40 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,257
Thanked 537 Times in 497 Posts
I found out that JVC true multi-standard decks not the standard converters like the Samsungs, have wider compatibility of tape speeds, I had NTSC tapes that did not play in a US NTSC VCR due to bad recording or the Sony VCR I have sucks, The tape would display picture in pause and fast search but playback is too noisy or have a large noisy bar anywhere in the screen, The audio is fine and I know the VCR is perfectly aligned. When I pop that tape in the JVC deck it would play fine but the VCR would not display its speed like it would normally do for SP, EP, LP, SLP ...etc. The logo just goes away. I've come across several tapes like this from different sources and usually are LP or slower home recordings of TV programs.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
05-27-2021, 04:53 PM
Alessandro Machi Alessandro Machi is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
That's not correct.
TBC does not require proc amp, and quite a few do not have one.
The term time base stabilizers incorrectly being called Time Base Correctors started in the early 90's. I got the lecture straight from the horses mouth, JVC Cyprus, California division.

People were incorrectly calling Time Base Stabilizers as Time Base Corrector. The Corrector part specifically refers to the pro amp adjustments that would be located on the machine itself.

TBS's are Time Base Stabilizers, not Time Base Correctors. But they still perform the function of a TBC, except one cannot directly adjust chroma, hue, set-up, and brightness. I would have never learned the difference myself if it had not been explained to me by a JVC tech.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Betacam SP the best analog format? (yes!) latreche34 Capture, Record, Transfer 16 05-28-2021 03:30 PM
Betacam component dub connectors? johnnybOHIO General Discussion 4 03-16-2020 12:31 PM
What to do with these Betacam tapes? bobbintb Project Planning, Workflows 4 08-12-2019 05:20 PM
Capturing Betacam SP tapes? koberulz Capture, Record, Transfer 44 08-25-2017 06:23 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:18 AM