Quantcast WinXP sound settings for ATI AIW + Turtle Beach? - digitalFAQ Forum
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01-27-2022, 12:42 PM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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I have an almost identical setup as Chanukah22 as described this thread. Lord Smurf explained the three options for getting audio from VCR to PC.

I tried the first method in which I connect VCR cables (S-Video+red+white) to the purple ATI box, which then sends the video and audio signal to the ATI All in Wonder 9600XT AGP video card, which keeps the video signal, but sends the audio over to the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card via the internal AUX cable.

I was not able to get any sounds in VirtualDub1911 (Lord Smurf version) using this method. I tried different settings in VirtualDub1911, and different settings in Windows. I assume that I needed to activate the AUX settings in the Windows XP Recording Control sound panel, and ensure that AUX was not muted in the Windows XP Volume Control.

I then skipped to the third method, which is VCR S-Video out to purple box S-Video in, and red+white audio out to a 1/8-inch adapter, and then to the Turtle Beach Line In. With this method, I was able to hear the VCR audio through my computer speakers (even without any WindowsXP app open), but I could not get the audio to be recorded during a VirtualDub1911 capture.

There are a lot of variables here, so I'm hoping if I show you a bunch of different screenshots from WindowsXP settings, something will stand out as being wrong, and then I can correct it.

System: WindowsXP (Integral Edition), ATI AIW 9600XT, Turtle Beach Santa Cruz TB400 (new from thebestpartinc.com). I installed included ATI CD-ROM, and installed files in Turtle Beach Santa Cruz WDM XP Drivers from OEM CD.zip (as provided by Lord Smurf).


Attached Images
File Type: png VDub Device.PNG (7.6 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: png VDub Audio Source menu.PNG (8.8 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: png VDub Audio Input menu.PNG (10.6 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg Playback control.jpg (33.7 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: png Recording Control.PNG (12.3 KB, 2 downloads)
File Type: png Mixer device.PNG (27.9 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: png Aureal Vortex 8820 Driver.PNG (29.6 KB, 2 downloads)
File Type: png Hardware.PNG (69.1 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg Device Manager.jpg (59.4 KB, 3 downloads)
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  #2  
01-27-2022, 09:06 PM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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UPDATE: The thing I should have checked first, I checked last... I connected the internal AUX wire into another connector on the TB400, instead of the the (white) AUX connector. I have now connected it correctly and I am able to capture sound in VirtdualDub1911.

But I have discovered a buzz is present in all the recordings. In fact, I removed the purple ATI connector and just captured black in VirtualDub1911. Listen to attachment WAV file. I bought a few of those AUX connector wires from the same place and the second one also produces the same buzz. I can confirm that I pushed the wire all the way into the ATI and the TB400. Is this buzz a known issue sometimes, or is this very unusual?

I have also just tried the loopback method and I'm still getting an identical(?) buzz.



Last edited by ThumperStrauss; 01-27-2022 at 09:29 PM.
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  #3  
01-28-2022, 04:46 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Buzz is common on both channels, but it doesn't appear to be mains referred.

Can you try the existing normal soundcard? Also no UPS's or similar nearby is there?
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  #4  
01-28-2022, 07:18 AM
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@Robust, that's not it here.

Some hardware combos pick up noise in the AIW+TBSC setup. In those rarer cases, fall back to the direct input, mini>RCA stereo cable to TBSC line in. Bypass the AIW audio entirely. This means you won't use the AIW purple/domino input block for RCA audio, just video. The audio now routes directly.

I have a system like this.

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  #5  
01-28-2022, 08:50 AM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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UPDATE:
Yes, RobustReviews, I do have a UPS nearby. I removed it and retested. Here is what I've learned:
  • AUX + UPS is noisy (Test audio 10 listed above)
  • AUX without UPS removes that rumble sound, but high-pitched sound remains (Test audio 11)
  • Loopback method (with or without UPS) has similar rumble to AUX + UPS, but not as loud.
  • Direct-to-TB400 with no UPS has the same high-pitched sound as AUX without UPS
By the way, in the Direct-to-TB400 method, I turned off the audio inputs and source in VirtualDub. What does it mean, then, that this high-pitched sound was captured?


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01-28-2022, 09:44 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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I had an inkling that sounded like switch-mode noise, this is why I'm cautious about recommending UPSs as a panacea to power issues. There is a valid argument for them, but they do spew broadband switch-mode noise as a result of 'doing what they do'. Remember what they reduce in power-line noise they tend to replace with broadband RF noise, no such thing as a free lunch with this.

There is a whole industry related to power-conditioning, general UPSs aren't really a part of it - they're generally never used with RF sensitive equipment unless they're designed for the task or they can be appropriately shielded or as an absolute minimum kept some distance from the equipment. The 'purer the sine' (!) the more noise they have to make. Whenever you do high-frequency, high current switching involving square waves you'll generate a load of 'crap', this is, unfortunately, an electrical and mathematical law known since 1822..

Feeding SMPSs there is probably an argument that a 'crappy' one with a cruder output might actually be less noisy - but that's just speculation, I'd wait for an expert on that one.

I can't hear your samples with any clarity mobile so we've still not solved the issue, but we can say with a fair degree of certainty that the UPS was a contributory factor. We could have two separate issues here.

Power-supply would be my next place to look, this is is a bit trickier, you could be having a synergistic effect between the UPS and a failing power-supply or two independent faults. The 'loopback' method (apologies, I do not know what that refers to) I guess may be adding another filtering stage, which is helpful.

I don't think these cards accept a balanced input, but somehow (if you can) switch to a balanced audio capture system that would be the next easy experiment to see where this is coming from.

Last edited by RobustReviews; 01-28-2022 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Added more detail in last paragraph.
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  #7  
01-28-2022, 09:53 AM
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You have to back up. What motherboard? And then are the caps on it all fine?

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01-28-2022, 10:22 AM
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Something else to consider, try taking a load off of the UPS for example if you have the PC plugged in to it, just try putting the video unit through it. Some of them are tiny little things when you dig into the spec' sheet, and the nominal power needs derating to load. If it's stressed out, that could create issues.

You might be using a hulk-great-thing, I'm only speculating, but 450W is the basic UK model from APC, and remember that's Wattage.
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01-28-2022, 11:36 AM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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Here are more of my system specs:
  • PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 550 G3, 220-G3-0550-Y1, 80+ GOLD, 550W Fully Modular (new)
  • Motherboard: Asrock 4CoreDual-SATA2 (never used, new in box, caps look fine to me)
  • CPU: Intel Core2Duo E7500 (LGA775) (used, but includes OEM heat sink and fan)
  • RAM: Kingston 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM 800 (PC2 6400) (used)
  • HDD: WD 1TB (my old used drive) used as system drive
  • HDD: Seagate BarraCuda 2TB Internal Hard Drive HDD ST2000DM008 (new) used as data drive
  • Video card: ATI AIW 9600XT (never used, new in box)
  • Sound card: Turtle Beach Santa Cruz (TB400) (new from thebestpartinc.com)
  • Panasonic 1.44 drive (used)
  • Sony DVD-ROM (used)
  • UPS: CyberPower EC850LCD 850VA/510W (new)

Other facts:
  • The PSU motherboard cable has 24 pins, but mobo has 20 pins. I read that I could simply place it the 24-pins over the 20-pins with the extra ones not connected.
  • Some of the header panel wires front front case were too short. I was only able to connect Power, and Reset. The others are not connected but in the case: computer sound, power LED, HDD LED.
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  #10  
01-29-2022, 11:01 AM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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UPDATE: I removed the TB400 card, restarted Windows XP, and installed the Realtek High Definition Audio System Software Ver:R1.50 (from Asrock website) in order to use the built-in sound on the Asrock 4CoreDual-SATA2 motherboard. I restarted, then plugged Sony TVR66 audio cables into the built-in Line In connector (via an RCA to MiniStereo adapter).

The result: No buzz, no high-pitch background sound. I didn't bother attaching a sample because there's nothing to hear. I even put the file in Adobe Audition to see the waveform and there's nothing there.

My next step is to re-install the TB400 into a different slot and do another test. If I get the same buzz/high-pitched background sound, I will disconnect DVD-ROM player and 1.44 drive to see if that has an impact.
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  #11  
01-29-2022, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperStrauss View Post
UPDATE: I removed the TB400 card, restarted Windows XP, and installed the Realtek High Definition Audio System Software Ver:R1.50 (from Asrock website) in order to use the built-in sound on the Asrock 4CoreDual-SATA2 motherboard. I restarted, then plugged Sony TVR66 audio cables into the built-in Line In connector (via an RCA to MiniStereo adapter).

The result: No buzz, no high-pitch background sound. I didn't bother attaching a sample because there's nothing to hear. I even put the file in Adobe Audition to see the waveform and there's nothing there.

My next step is to re-install the TB400 into a different slot and do another test. If I get the same buzz/high-pitched background sound, I will disconnect DVD-ROM player and 1.44 drive to see if that has an impact.
Interesting.

I'd be inclined to just try the built-in audio and see if it satisfies your requirements in the first instance.

It might be masking another issue or having more aggressive filtering, but ultimately when we're playing with VHS audio there's probably not much of an argument for worrying too much about it.

Glad you have a resolution
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  #12  
01-29-2022, 01:57 PM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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UPDATE: I reinstalled the Turtle Beach TB400 into a different PCI slot, and removed the DVD-ROM and 1.44 floppy (power and data). Turned on Windows XP, detected new hardware, installed the drivers (as they were previously installed). In VirtualDub1911 started capture but with no tape playing.

The result: Listening with earbuds I can't hear the same high pitched sound as my previous test with Line In TB400, but my kids can hear it. And using Adobe Audition to look at the waveform, I can see what she heard. I attached the waveforms of the various tests.

Bottom line: I still have noise on recordings done with the TB400, but no noise with the mobo's onboard RealTek audio input. I've put the TB400 in a different PCI slot. I've installed the TB400 drivers from first the ZIP file (available at DigitalFAQ) and then the ISO file (available at DigitalFAQ). This didn't resolve the issue.

I suppose I have two options if I decide to use the TB400 anyway:
  1. Process the sound of every video capture with Adobe Audition to remove it (ie, Capture Noise Print -- Noise reduction)
  2. Leave it alone and assume that it cannot be heard with all the regular home movie sounds and background noise.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Comparison of noise - TB400 versus onboard RealTek.jpg (47.3 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #13  
01-29-2022, 04:26 PM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperStrauss View Post
UPDATE: I reinstalled the Turtle Beach TB400 into a different PCI slot, and removed the DVD-ROM and 1.44 floppy (power and data). Turned on Windows XP, detected new hardware, installed the drivers (as they were previously installed). In VirtualDub1911 started capture but with no tape playing.

The result: Listening with earbuds I can't hear the same high pitched sound as my previous test with Line In TB400, but my kids can hear it. And using Adobe Audition to look at the waveform, I can see what she heard. I attached the waveforms of the various tests.

Bottom line: I still have noise on recordings done with the TB400, but no noise with the mobo's onboard RealTek audio input. I've put the TB400 in a different PCI slot. I've installed the TB400 drivers from first the ZIP file (available at DigitalFAQ) and then the ISO file (available at DigitalFAQ). This didn't resolve the issue.

I suppose I have two options if I decide to use the TB400 anyway:
  1. Process the sound of every video capture with Adobe Audition to remove it (ie, Capture Noise Print -- Noise reduction)
  2. Leave it alone and assume that it cannot be heard with all the regular home movie sounds and background noise.
I don't know why you want to use it when you have no issue with the onboard sound?

Like I said, just go with the onboard audio first, if you think you're really missing something go back to the Turtle Beach card. They were pretty cromulent at the time (when the marketing was stripped off of them) so unless you have a desperately pressing reason to use it or think you're missing something I'd overlook it for the time being. They're a very old design of card: nothing special today. I think they trace most of the core design back to an ISA card.

They do sound 'good', but I honestly can't see any pressing reason to use one anymore unless you run in to other issues.

To use a device that 'adds' noise to then strip it off seems like a counter-productive thing to do.
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  #14  
01-29-2022, 06:25 PM
ThumperStrauss ThumperStrauss is offline
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@RobustReviews Thanks for the feedback. I've been lately spending more time recently on DigitalFAQ than on Facebook, Reddit, and YouTube combined. I'm parsing every post, ordering items based on the guidance here to build the best XP appliance for capturing my 8mm tape collection. I guess I want the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz to work because it's The One. I'm not saying that it sometimes feels like being a DigitalFAQer is like being in a cult, but I do get an endorphin hit when I'm browsing the online used items sites and see the Datavideo logo.
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  #15  
01-30-2022, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperStrauss View Post
(never used, new in box, caps look fine to me)
Not being used doesn't really matter. The "new" item is most than a decade old, so the term "new" is somewhat BS when applied to functional items like electronics. Caps can age regardless.

Quote:
The PSU motherboard cable has 24 pins, but mobo has 20 pins. I read that I could simply place it the 24-pins over the 20-pins with the extra ones not connected.
Some of the header panel wires front front case were too short. I was only able to connect Power, and Reset. The others are not connected but in the case: computer sound, power LED, HDD LED.
This is simply a matter of choosing the wrong case for the build

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperStrauss View Post
UPDATE: I removed the TB400 card, restarted Windows XP, and installed the Realtek High Definition Audio System Software Ver:R1.50 (from Asrock website) in order to use the built-in sound on the Asrock 4CoreDual-SATA2 motherboard.
The TBSC card may simply be bad. That happens.

Quote:
My next step is to re-install the TB400 into a different slot and do another test. If I get the same buzz/high-pitched background sound,
Good troubleshooting.

Quote:
I will disconnect DVD-ROM player and 1.44 drive to see if that has an impact.
This is a capture system. Remove anything not essential, and that includes disabling BIOS settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
I'd be inclined to just try the built-in audio and see if it satisfies your requirements in the first instance.
No! That would be really stupid to do. We've been over this before. The clock of an onboard soundcard simply does not work. You will have significant sync issues, or significant pitch issues as it struggles to lock. While Realtek has been passably decent on some high-end AMD boards (Phenom II era CPUs, which also melt themselves eventually), this specific board isn't one of them. Onboard audio is a single crappy chip, whereas a card is a card full of chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperStrauss View Post
The result: Listening with earbuds I can't hear the same high pitched sound as my previous test with Line In TB400, but my kids can hear it. And using Adobe Audition to look at the waveform, I can see what she heard. I attached the waveforms of the various tests.
I'll give it a listen from my video systems, and post back.

Quote:
I suppose I have two options if I decide to use the TB400 anyway:
Process the sound of every video capture with Adobe Audition to remove it (ie, Capture Noise Print -- Noise reduction)
Leave it alone and assume that it cannot be heard with all the regular home movie sounds and background noise.
It may be the card. So 3rd option is buy another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
I don't know why you want to use it when you have no issue with the onboard sound?
See above.
No.

If onboard audio worked well, don't you think we'd all have been doing this for decades now? I know I would.

If other random audio cards all worked well (or "the same"), don't you think I'd be doing it?

For example, I've tried many times in recent years to get a good PCIe audio card, or simply use onboard, so that I could avoid the rarer/pricier 2x PCI slot boards from the last generation of CPU that could function with XP. Onboard is not an option, and I've yet to find a PCIe audio card that will work well either. I still have a tiny bit of hope for a good PCIe, but onboard is a no-no.

Quote:
They're a very old design of card: nothing special today.
Your statement here is nonsense. Today's hardware is not what gets used for yesterday's legacy task of capturing video. Today is all about Win10, and tablets, and Facebook. Modern stuff for modern tasks. You cannot randomly mix-and-match the tech. That's how we got dumb advice to use HDMI converters to make low-quality video conversions. Onboard audio suggestions are honestly not much better than HDMI converter suggestions.

Quote:
I think they trace most of the core design back to an ISA card.
No.

[QUOTE=ThumperStrauss;82363]@RobustReviews Thanks for the feedback. I've been lately spending more time recently on DigitalFAQ than on Facebook, Reddit, and YouTube combined. I'm parsing every post, ordering items based on the guidance here to build the best XP appliance for capturing my 8mm tape collection. I guess I want the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz to work because it's The One. I'm not saying that it sometimes feels like being a DigitalFAQer is like being in a cult, but I do get an endorphin hit when I'm browsing the online used items sites and see the Datavideo logo.
And you're building out a great setup for yourself. AIW+TBSC has been an ideal known combo since the mid 2000s. If you had run into a common issue, don't you think I (or some others who are here) would know about it? I've never run into an issue where the TBSC, with that Asrock board, resulted in constant buzz, and where the bypass method didn't 100% resolve. Either the card is bad, or something else is being missed. Keep at it, you'll narrow it down.

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