VHS capture: VirtualDub2 artifacts and errors?

[BmacSWA]

Hello All,

I've lurked here a long time, not sure if I ever posted, but here goes. I've been working on importing VHS home movies recorded with carious cameras on various quality of video tapes for the purpose of archiving them and converting to modern formats. Ive had tremendous success importing DV and Hi8 footage playing on my Sony DCR-TRV730 through the Diamond VC500 into VirtualDub2 then converting to 60fps... and so forth. However I am now experiencing weird video artifacts that look like horizontal tracking issues when importing VHS through 2 different VCRs. They are both older (1995 Mitsu HS-U780 and 2002 Pano PV-V4524S) but play the same tape(s) perfectly viewing on a TV. Iv'e tried both composite and S-video outs with the same result. When I capture the VHS tapes onto the DV Sony camera the errors are not there. Can this be a result of not having a TBC or similar component missing in the import process, or could there be a software setting in VirtualDub that would correct the flaw? It seems like a head scratcher that the old tv and old ver play well together, but Virtualdub or the VCR / VC500 leaves me with arrows. I'm attaching a picture of a sample captured frame.

Thanks all, Bmac

-- merged --

Ok, good talk everyone. So, I got a working flow without pulling my kids from college to buy 30 year old VCR and TBC hardware. Turns out the errors were due to the lack of TBC in the 1995 VCR I was using. So, what I did if found an early 2000's Hi8 camcorder with TBC I had tucked away and went from the SVHS s-video to the Hi8, then s-video out of the Hi8 to the VC500 and into Virtualdub2. The weird errors were cone and I am getting superior results to my old archiving method which was composite video out of the VCR to a DV camcorder and saved as DV.

Im sure the recommended VCRs on the forum run through the TBC-1000 (if you could find and afford one) and into a recommended USB/PC interface into a machine running xp will still be the recommended setup, but this works fine for me. Nothing professional, just about 20-30 old family videos cassettes from the 80's and 90's.

thanks for all the input (through reading older posts). Great forum

B

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmacSWA

Ok, good talk everyone. So, I got a working flow without pulling my kids from college to buy 30 year old VCR and TBC hardware. Turns out the errors were due to the lack of TBC in the 1995 VCR I was using. So, what I did if found an early 2000's Hi8 camcorder with TBC I had tucked away and went from the SVHS s-video to the Hi8, then s-video out of the Hi8 to the VC500 and into Virtualdub2. The weird errors were cone and I am getting superior results to my old archiving method which was composite video out of the VCR to a DV camcorder and saved as DV.

Huh?

So
VCR (composite) >
> Hi8 camera >
> VC500

But the Hi8 camera TBC is not passthrough. Maybe DV or Digital8, some models, but definitely not a Hi8 camera.

The VC500 itself is a monkey wrench, random errors, including AGC issues, due to apparent production changes in those cards.

VirtualDub2 is a known problem, only use VirtualDub 1.9 for capture.

If anything, it may show that the DV camera had issues.

Dropped frames was never addressed here.

[BmacSWA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Huh?
So
VCR (composite) >
> Hi8 camera >
> VC500

Nope, VCR S-Video out to S-Video in on the Hi8 and recorded/dubbed the video
Played back the Hi8 tape on the DV camcorder that can also play Hi8 s-video out
vc500 s-video in to the PC

Quote:

But the Hi8 camera TBC is not passthrough. Maybe DV or Digital8, some models, but definitely not a Hi8 camera.

I think the above clarifies that I didn't passthrough but rather recorded a new video

Quote:

The VC500 itself is a monkey wrench, random errors, including AGC issues, due to apparent production changes in those cards.

I don't know about that, but it has served me well. Suggestions for a perfect card to capture on?

Quote:

VirtualDub2 is a known problem, only use VirtualDub 1.9 for capture.

So far I haven't had trouble capturing on VD2

Quote:

If anything, it may show that the DV camera had issues.

The issues were from the VCR s-video direct to the vc500. The VCR s-video to a TV, or either camcorder were absent of these wavy anomolies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

Dropped frames was never addressed here.

I haven't dropped frames as reported by virtual dub or visually watching the capture.

Like I lamented previously, I love the information you have on this topic in the forum, but the lack of availability of the hardware (seemingly worldwide) to match your workflows begs for alternatives. I'm just trying to find solutions that fit my issues.

Thanks, B

By the way, your inventory of well running hardware that match your suggestions seems to be out. Are you gathering and planning to sell more inventory soon?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmacSWA

Nope, VCR S-Video out to S-Video in on the Hi8 and recorded/dubbed the video
Played back the Hi8 tape on the DV camcorder that can also play Hi8 s-video out

Note: DV cameras do not play Hi8. I assume you mean Digital8 (aka DV on Sony 8mm tape).

So VCR plays, Hi8 camera records.
Then Digital8 plays, VC500 captures.

That's insane for quality, but it does work.

Quote:

So far I haven't had trouble capturing on VD2

It tends to induce massive drops at recording start, stop, breaks. But it can behave on some systems, with some cards, with some codecs. It's fiddly. Some cards refuse to work with other VirtualDub versions, VD2 is the only option, and those times can be a PITA.

Quote:

Like I lamented previously, I love the information you have on this topic in the forum, but the lack of availability of the hardware (seemingly worldwide) to match your workflows begs for alternatives. I'm just trying to find solutions that fit my issues.

All of the hardware can still be located. It's not as easy as walking into Best Buy, or placing an order at B&H, but still not impossible. The common gripe is costs, but it's always had costs. Video hobby, or video DIY, is really no different than any other hobby/DIY. If anything, video is cheap in comparison, a workflow for a few grand is a bargain.

Quote:

By the way, your inventory of well running hardware that match your suggestions seems to be out. Are you gathering and planning to sell more inventory soon?

I often run low, because people PM me, and snag items before I even have a chance to post it in my marketplace listings. I sometimes even have waiting lists for gear. I got knocked down from health a couple months ago, still catching up with a few folks there. When the dust settles, done with catch-up, hopefully this week, will then list what's still available.

[BmacSWA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Note: DV cameras do not play Hi8. I assume you mean Digital8 (aka DV on Sony 8mm tape).

Yes, Digital 8, that's correct

Quote:

So VCR plays, Hi8 camera records.
Then Digital8 plays, VC500 captures.
That's insane for quality, but it does work.

I didn't try playing from the Hi8 camcorder since I knew the Digital 8 cam worked fine with the rest of the downstream hardware. As far as insane for quality, do you mean the effort isn't worth the pain int the a** workflow? Will I not get a better picture than going composite video into the Digital 8 cam then a DV capture on the pc? I'd love to get a TBC in the middle, but it's just home video recorded with consumer level cameras, AND I wasn't terribly upset with the results I had, I'm just trying to get the best quality with what I had.

Quote:

It tends to induce massive drops at recording start, stop, breaks. But it can behave on some systems, with some cards, with some codecs. It's fiddly. Some cards refuse to work with other VirtualDub versions, VD2 is the only option, and those times can be a PITA.

Haven't seen that yet, but duly noted.

Quote:

All of the hardware can still be located. It's not as easy as walking into Best Buy, or placing an order at B&H, but still not impossible. The common gripe is costs, but it's always had costs. Video hobby, or video DIY, is really no different than any other hobby/DIY. If anything, video is cheap in comparison, a workflow for a few grand is a bargain.

Agreed, but the sticker shock associated is still new, and again, its a lot of home video.

Quote:

I often run low, because people PM me, and snag items before I even have a chance to post it in my marketplace listings. I sometimes even have waiting lists for gear. I got knocked down from health a couple months ago, still catching up with a few folks there. When the dust settles, done with catch-up, hopefully this week, will then list what's still available.

Awesome. Thanks again for keeping up the hardware for all the enthusiasts out there.

One last question, if I added a tbc like the TBC-1000 how much can I expect to miraculously fix videos with artifacts like scan lines or static? Ive been using Virtual dub scripts and FCPX filters to do my best, but if a passthrough through a magic box gets my vas videos stored near day 1 quality, I'm much more interested at the price.

Thanks M'lord,
B

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BmacSWA

As far as insane for quality, do you mean the effort isn't worth the pain int the a** workflow?

Analog re-recording was the insane part. Works, but extremely lossy.

Quote:

Will I not get a better picture than going composite video into the Digital 8 cam then a DV capture on the pc?

I don't understand the question.
Better = VCR > TBC > capture card. Some form of TBC must exist, be it the ideal unit (doesn't give you grief), or the kinda-sorta workarounds that can give you issues depending on factors.

Quote:

I'd love to get a TBC in the middle, but it's just home video recorded with consumer level cameras, AND I wasn't terribly upset with the results I had, I'm just trying to get the best quality with what I had.
One last question, if I added a tbc like the TBC-1000 how much can I expect to miraculously fix videos with artifacts like scan lines or static? Ive been using Virtual dub scripts and FCPX filters to do my best, but if a passthrough through a magic box gets my vas videos stored near day 1 quality, I'm much more interested at the price.

"scan lines" are a specific jargon that applies to TVs, so not sure what you reference here. Interlacing? Static audio, video? Sample needed. Frame TBCs are mostly to fix the signal, but that does have some image corrections as byproduct. Mostly for errors induced downstream due to bad signal, some issue from the source. But it's not there to unring the bell (ie, can't be done) of bad VCR tracking, bad VCRs, damaged source tapes. Nor bad methods.