Is my VHS transfer equipment fine, or upgrade?
Hello everyone, I'm about to start digitizing a LOT of (S-)VHS tapes, so I wanted to ask all the knowledgeable people here if my current setup will do them justice, or if it's worth getting something better.
These tapes range from 1st gen S-VHS masters to "almost impossible to see anything" bootlegs. I'm in a PAL region, but at least 20-30% of the tapes are NTSC, so any equipment in use would optimally support both, and record in PAL format (if there aren't any VCR's that can record both in NTSC and PAL). My current setup is a Panasonic AG-7350 VCR, through a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder, to a Hauppauge ImpactVCB-e PCIe capture card. I use OBS Studio to record the video files at very high quality settings. "Archival quality" isn't really my goal here, I don't need every single tape to be saved in a 60GB uncompressed file generally, but I still want the video quality to be as good as possible. I'm pretty sure my VCR doesn't have any type of TBC built in, so I've been looking at getting either a JVS HR-S9500, or a Panasonic NV-FS200, because they are in my budget range, and seem to be pretty well regarded as far as I can tell. I've also considered getting an external TBC to replace my ES15, but I don't really know of any that are known to be at the very least decent, and within the $500-600 I would be willing to spend on one. I have been looking at using a Panasonic WJ-AVE5 AV mixing board as my TBC, because according to the manual, it has a built in frame synchronizer. Does anyone have any experience using this technique/equipment for this purpose? They are just expensive enough used that I'm scared of buying one, and it doing nothing for my use, and being stuck with it. Would my current setup be alright, or should I get a better VCR (and possibly a better TBC solution)? Much love, Mick |
Aside from your other questions you will certainly be scolded for using OBS.
If you’ve ever browsed any page here with the key words OBS and CAPTURE, you should put on a helmet and take your beating like an adult, and take the advice. |
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Always wondered about this. OBS has a specific menu item for capturing from attached video capture device.
Unless OBS is a fraud, you wouldn't be doing a screen capture by selecting a video source... would you? The only issue I see with OBS is that seems to be a fiddle to get access to external codecs like HUFF or LAGS. I haven't managed it yet. |
My comments are absolutely parroted from years of reading daily posts many of which refer to OBS and many of which end in a smack-down of varying degrees of pain.
Personally I’ve never tried OBS, and if I do I’ll try it alone, in a super secret place where nobody sees me… |
Yes Barry, I do agree there is almost nothing worse than even mentioned OBS around here! :D
C'mon LS, what's the go with this "capture device" stuff in OBS?? Out with it! Are we going to have to drag you, kicking and screaming, into capturing in the 21st century with Windows 11 and OBS? :laugh::laugh: |
I just use it because it's what I'm used to, and my capture card won't always cooperate with VirtualDub properly because Windows 10 broke something with a driver or something at some point.
Again, my goal isn't to use a fancy codec and keep the massive files forever, so OBS Studio is just the simplest method, that works reliably, that also gives pretty damn good results without spending 600 hours fiddling with software from 1998 or using command line. If there's some specific driver or other solution to make things work with VirtualDub that I just haven't seen anywhere before, please let me know :) -Mick |
I'm in a PAL region, but at least 20-30% of the tapes are NTSC, so any equipment in use would optimally support both, and record in PAL format (if there aren't any VCR's that can record both in NTSC and PAL).
PAL decks can play NTSC tapes, it's a weird signal. Not a recommended method for digitization. There are multi system VCRs that will output proper PAL and Proper NTSC, they are usually not so good. Ideally you need a native VCR for PAL, another for NTSC. Quote:
Aside from the OBS you are using as other pointed. (I used that a couple years ago, it was a mess to use with capture cards ) > "Archival quality" isn't really my goal here > my goal isn't to use a fancy codec Euh... a codec is just a way to encode data, there is no "fancy" notion in a codec. You want an efficient one, that does good compression. Now if you don't seem to care much about quality and don't want to capture lossless, then why exactly are you trying to upgrade your setup? I don't understand what you are trying to achieve :question: P.S: I have no idea what is your ultimate goal with the digitization project. But just gonna tell you that a lot of people say "I don't want pro quality", etc I don't want to spend time learning, I don't want to hire someone to do it bcz it is expensive... in the end they end up coming back and doing the digitization work again. Some move on and accept what they did tho. It is up to you to decide |
When I said "Fancy codecs" I was mostly referring to what hushpower mentioned, and the fact that I can capture from my capture card in OBS Studio using YUY2, which is fine for me as of now at least. If I want to use a specific codec in the future I would probably figure out how to make VirtualDub cooperate with my capture card, then use that.
My goal is to get the tapes digitized in good quality, but I don't need it to be 100000% perfect, as seems to be the norm on this site from what I've seen. Essentially my goal is to get as good quality as possible, without spending thousands on equipment if it's not necessary, because if money wasn't an issue, I would just get a full studio rig and use that. Personally I usually record videos lossless, then compress (still using a high bitrate) and deinterlace the video using Handbrake. Again, it's probably better to use avisynth or something like that, but Handbrake works well for me. I'm asking about a TBC, because a fair amount of the tapes that are lower quality are currently giving me a fair few frame drops when recording, both in VirtualDub (the rare times it works with my capture card), and OBS Studio. How I understand it is that a decent TBC would at least help with these issues, which is a big plus when there's a very unstable signal on the tape because it's a 60th gen copy of a workprint tape. As always, I might just be doing something completely wrong, as I've only really worked with digital video at work and so on personally. Overall I find that my software process works fine for me, even if it is probably not as perfect as it could be. What I'm looking for is for the signal that is sent to my capture card is as good as it can be, without spending my life savings on it. Again, I already have an ES15, so if that combined with a better VCR (like the ones I mentioned) would improve stability, that would be optimal, but I might also be misunderstanding everything too. -Mick |
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Answering out of order some here...
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You already have the ES15, which is a strong+crippled line TBC only, with non-TBC frame sync. It has a fail rate. You're running into that fail rate. It's not a TBC, but merely a DVD recorder with a unique passthrough function. But that passthrough is mostly good at line correcting nth gen, and then handing the signal to an actual frame TBC. Not the be used alone, as too many try to do. Quote:
This is all that needs to happen: - the actual video signal is retain - not adding errors from a cheap/bad VCR - not adding errors from bad capture cards, or bad software (including compression, artifacts) Take DV, for example. - VHS wasn't blocky. DV is blocky. - VHS color didn't have a "cooked contrast" look to it, weird stepping patters, etc. Or a cheap VCR: - VHS video didn't wiggle on the tape, the junk VCR makes it wiggle (aka, when line TBC exists) Or cheap capture card: - VHS video didn't lose sync - VHS video didn't have deinterlacing artifacts, zigzaggy lines, etc. That's the goal. To retain quality, to not make it worse. Unfortunately, due to the chaotic nature of consumer analog videotape signals, like VHS, a frame TBC is require. Not optional. The signal needs proper timing to be ingested without issues. Restoration is where you improve quality beyond what was on the top. And that's not at all what is referred to 99% of the time. Quote:
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Why? Because "a studio rig" is vastly different, multiples more costly. Quote:
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Not the best VCR, quirks, quality concerns. Workable. ES15 is very minimalist for TBC(ish), fail rate, as per above text. Do not use OBS, not capture software. Quote:
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I have a Win10 system for the Elgato Wave:3 mic and audio work. But it doesn't change the fact that Elgato video capture cards are garbage, and Win10 is a PITA for video work. When M2 Macs comes out, I'll get one of those for H.265 video editing, from an Atomos and Nikon Z6 II camera. Capture consumer analog format video isn't a 2020s task, and 2020s tools are not what will give you quality, or often any usable captures. Remember, I worked for studios. Although health forced me to quit that, I have worked with indy filmmakers quite a bit in the years since then. A common theme is newbie filmmakers learning the hard way that any random OS, capture card, and software, gives crap video that will result in the film being rejected, disqualified, not being picked up, losing the comp, etc. Some DIY with the right tools (often gotten from me), some just want me to do it for them. Usually the former, filmmakers tend to be very hands-on, and expect to need it done again in the future. Quote:
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I think I might have an old Windows XP computer sitting around somewhere, so I could always just try using it in that, and see if that works. If I'm understanding you right, getting a better VCR, like the FS200, then running it through the ES15, and capturing the video using VirtualDub / AmaRecTV would be considered the bare minimum, and adding a good TBC between the ES15's output and the capture card's input would make it "good"? I honestly want to avoid super expensive hardware, even if it keeps it's value, because I don't really have the possibility to spend $2500 on something at once at the moment, because I could suddenly need that money for something, and who knows how long it could take before it sells, so if there are any other methods, "controversial"/"sub-optimal" or not, that could at least improve the quality of the video signal, I'm interested in learning about them. Quote:
Again, I have little to no experience working with analog video like this, so I apologize if I'm asking a lot of very basic questions someone has probably already answered in another thread. Thank you for the great info you put out there on these things, and being willing to help inexperienced people like myself, lordsmurf! :) - Mick |
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Max is a bit short there, Servese43! :)
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