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  #1  
04-14-2022, 06:15 AM
pthebest19 pthebest19 is offline
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Hi, I recently bought a DMR ES10 in good conditions in my area.

I tested the passthrough, and while it does make the image slightly better, it crops the horizontal resolution to what would be 704 instead of 720 horizontal pixels.

Is there any obscure setting I need to tweak for this?
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  #2  
04-14-2022, 07:45 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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????
Provide samples with and without ES-10

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  #3  
04-14-2022, 08:14 AM
pthebest19 pthebest19 is offline
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Ok I'll put samples. I didn't use the same frame, but they're from the same tape, and these were all Digital Betacam masters that cover the entire 720 area. As you can see the one with the passthrough is cropped, if I connect the VCR directly to the capture card it doesn't happen.

My semi-broken DMR EH55 does the same thing.

Just to clarify, this only happens with PAL signals. I did tests with NTSC tapes and Laserdiscs and it doesn't happen.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg vlcsnap-2022-04-14-15h10m24s840.jpg (108.4 KB, 18 downloads)
File Type: jpg vlcsnap-2022-04-14-15h10m38s760.jpg (112.3 KB, 16 downloads)
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  #4  
04-14-2022, 08:20 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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The DVD standard provides for scan line widths of 704 and 720 pixels. The ES10 may be masking pixels that are in the "overscan" area of the analog video image and only output what it would record to a DVD.
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  #5  
04-14-2022, 08:29 AM
pthebest19 pthebest19 is offline
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Yes, but is there any way to turn that off?
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  #6  
04-14-2022, 08:34 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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The images have been resized to 768x576 by vlc because the DAR.
However, it is evident that the image captured with the ES-10 is smaller in width.
The CIR601 spec for analog refers anyhow to 704 width only, so it is ok.
I would say that the strange is the no ES-10 capture almost at 720x576, but I am not familiar with Betacam (I have not a single capture filling the 720 pixels).

Wait for msgohan, latreche34 or hodgey, they'll help you...

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  #7  
04-14-2022, 08:42 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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If so it should be documented in the user manual or service manual, both of which can be downloaded.

Alternatively there may be a hack that might turn up in an internet search.

FWIW the 704 active pixel scan line width is commonly found in DV camcorder recordings.
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  #8  
04-14-2022, 09:39 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
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This is odd and I don't think it has to do with the DVD player, It may have to do with your Betacam deck output, what deck, what connection type? need more info, Could you try a VHS/V8 capture and post two small samples or at least frame grabs without resizing.

https://www.youtube.com/user/latoak34/videos
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  #9  
04-14-2022, 09:46 AM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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My GV-USB2 capture stick gets 720x576 from my PAL ES-15 (VHS S-Video source).
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  #10  
04-14-2022, 10:03 AM
pthebest19 pthebest19 is offline
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Just to clarify, that was a VHS tape by Warner Home Video, and the VCR is a Panasonic NV SV120. I meant to say that the telecined masters were originally on DigiBeta (and I have a leaked tech card for proof), therefor they take the entire width, unlike the older analog masters. Older VHS releases used 1 inch tape masters and such.

I use the GV USB2 too (which is a clone of the Yuan PD652, so Techwell chip inside). I was capturing with S Video but the same happens with composite anyway.
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  #11  
04-14-2022, 10:12 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
My GV-USB2 capture stick gets 720x576 from my PAL ES-15 (VHS S-Video source).
Do you mean that the active pixels inside the frame cover the full 720x576 area?

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  #12  
04-14-2022, 10:55 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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The analog outputs of panasonic DMR'S only digitize with 704x576 (or 704x480 with NTSC) pixels (52ÁS signal section), instead of with full D1 section of 720x576 (or 720x480 with NTSC) pixels (53.33ÁS signal section). This results in 8 black empty pixels each at the left and right image border, which do not contain any image part of the source. Depending on the original image source (which is either fully drawn or the image area is slightly shifted), there may be small missing (cropped) image portions at the edges.

Only the HDMI outputs of the Panasonic DMR's are 720x576.

This is the case with most DVD recorders. Only a few output in PAL 720x576 via the analog outputs.

Last edited by Bogilein; 04-14-2022 at 11:07 AM.
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  #13  
04-14-2022, 11:25 AM
pthebest19 pthebest19 is offline
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I heard the HDMI output most of the time only outputs in progressive scan which is not what I'd want anyway.

But how does that happen to PAL and not NTSC which instead shows up at full 720x480?

Anyway, I see the passthrough barely makes a difference compared to a direct capture with the device I use, especially with the NV HV60/SV120 series which have amazing tracking control. So I may end up using the passthrough just for Laserdisc.
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  #14  
04-14-2022, 11:37 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pthebest19 View Post
I heard the HDMI output most of the time only outputs in progressive scan which is not what I'd want anyway.
.
What?

I own about 20 dvd-recorders from different brands (Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Panasonic,Toshiba, Philips...), if your capture card could capture 720x576i or 720x470i you can set the hdmi output from all of the recommended dvd recorders to 720x576i or 720x480i.

If you can't set the hdmi output to 720x576i or 720x480i you use the wrong capture card.
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  #15  
04-14-2022, 11:51 AM
pthebest19 pthebest19 is offline
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Yes my capture card can do HDMI interlaced, I don't use a gamer device. It's another Yuan clone.

Bogilein, just because you happen to own about 20 dvd recorders, could you tell me which one improves VHS capture best? I heard some later Panasonic models have HDMI but don't stabilize the signal as much.
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  #16  
04-14-2022, 12:18 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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This always depends on the video content, the condition of the video tape.

If you have video content that has already been copied once or more, there is no way around a Panasonic ES10 and some other Panasonic DMRs.

If the tape and the recording is in good condition and contains recordings directly from the TV, in most cases a Panasonic DMR released after the ES10 is sufficient.

A good middle ground can also be the Sony/Pioneer DVD recorders from the end of 2006.

The Panasonic ones tend to cut off the brightness range but have the best jitter correction.
The Sony/Pioneer do not have such good jitter correction, but you can adjust the brightness range.

My experience is only for PAL video tapes.

In this thread I have upload some samples:

Weird horizontal distortions; sign of TBC usage?
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  #17  
04-14-2022, 12:35 PM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Here a comparison of mine with and without the ES-15 (only one field because the other is corrupt):

https://imgsli.com/OTkzNzE

Even if the DMR is outputting a 704x576, when capturing the active area inside the frame is the same. My conclusion is that if the original image is not 720 large (99.99% of the cases) the final result is the same, because probably the internali ICs of the Panasonic are clever enough.

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  #18  
04-14-2022, 01:28 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Here are some test pictures made from the S-Video or HDMI Out from a few dvd-recorders.

I have tested about 25 DVD players, DVD recorders & Blu Ray players and actually only 1 player could correctly play a test file in 720x576i and full range 0-255 via the S-Video Out and that was the Pioneer DVD 630.
In 2nd place came the JVC DR-MH10 which also outputs 720x576i via the S-Video out but cannot output the full range of 0-255.

That's why I'm always skeptical about test files because it often depends on the hardware which is used. From the player to the TBC to the capture card.

That was also a reason why I have demonstrated in another post that clipping can happen even during playback from the video recorder.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Panasonic EH495 HDMI Out.jpg (163.1 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg JVC MH10 S-Video Out.jpg (222.2 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg Sony RDR870 S-Video Out.jpg (227.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg Pioneer DVR555 S-Video Out.jpg (202.1 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg Toshiba RD32 S-Video Out.jpg (204.8 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg Panasonic ES10 S-Video Out.jpg (200.8 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg Pioneer DVR630 S-Video Out.jpg (208.7 KB, 10 downloads)
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  #19  
04-14-2022, 02:32 PM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
That's why I'm always skeptical about test files because it often depends on the hardware which is used. From the player to the TBC to the capture card.
That was also a reason why I have demonstrated in another post that clipping can happen even during playback from the video recorder.
Correct, but we are not talking about levels. Do you have any comparison showing the captured active area inside the 720x576 frame with and without one of your many recorders? It will help to better understand, because my single experiment is not enough.

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  #20  
04-14-2022, 07:52 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lollo2
Do you mean that the active pixels inside the frame cover the full 720x576 area?
Not sure!


Attached Files
File Type: avi JVC Triad no es15 snip.avi (68.36 MB, 12 downloads)
File Type: avi JVC Triad ES15 snip.avi (87.15 MB, 5 downloads)
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