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02-07-2022, 04:57 PM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Sony obviously made the best stuff but seeing as the supposedly best cameras for the job display a weird green line in the right overscan area, at least with PAL tapes, it got me thinking how something like Canon would do the job. I know some of their last 8mm camcorders at least had TBC as well.

Has anyone here used different camcorders than Sony for playback and capturing 8mm tapes, and can share their experiences?

My plan was to use my one of my Hi8 decks, actually, but upon reading the forum in here and making actual comparisons myself, I see how poorly they perform compared to the cameras. Like a weird smudge all over the image - disappointed! But at least they dont have odd green sides.
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  #2  
02-07-2022, 08:03 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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No idea about canons, though I know the late model hitachi ones with tbc don't have the same chroma line issue on PAL the sonys do. The TBC on the one I got has a tendency to cause vertical "jumping"/"jitter" though. I don't know to what extent it's an issue with the specific camcorder and to what extent it's an inherent issue with the models. I don't have any other camcorders to compare with (got a dead one which may or may not be fixable) Though, I've seen the effect on a vhs tape that was dubbed from from one as well (well 95% sure it was as it had the same camera OSD on it). So using it with a panasonic dvd recorder may be preferable. These hitachis do also use a part digital decoding process like the late model sony ones do (unlike say older camcorders and vcrs.)

There are also the older sony camcorders (without TBC), don't have the chroma issue either, or at least not the two I've tried though ones up to around 1994 are very plagued with capacitor issues so may be hard to find a working one from the right time window.

Was planning to make a comparison of the hi8 players I have at one point but I've never gotten around to it. I've also noted the vcrs I've used are softer/muddier than the late Sony camcorders. The Hitachi D8 camcorder I have seems to be a tad less luma noisy/softer, and seems to not have the same degree of chroma noise reduction as the Sony's. (it is a bit janky and beat up though so idk if it's 100% representative or not.)

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  #3  
02-09-2022, 06:59 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
No idea about canons, though I know the late model hitachi ones with tbc don't have the same chroma line issue on PAL the sonys do. The TBC on the one I got has a tendency to cause vertical "jumping"/"jitter" though. I don't know to what extent it's an issue with the specific camcorder and to what extent it's an inherent issue with the models. I don't have any other camcorders to compare with (got a dead one which may or may not be fixable) Though, I've seen the effect on a vhs tape that was dubbed from from one as well (well 95% sure it was as it had the same camera OSD on it). So using it with a panasonic dvd recorder may be preferable. These hitachis do also use a part digital decoding process like the late model sony ones do (unlike say older camcorders and vcrs.)

There are also the older sony camcorders (without TBC), don't have the chroma issue either, or at least not the two I've tried though ones up to around 1994 are very plagued with capacitor issues so may be hard to find a working one from the right time window.

Was planning to make a comparison of the hi8 players I have at one point but I've never gotten around to it. I've also noted the vcrs I've used are softer/muddier than the late Sony camcorders. The Hitachi D8 camcorder I have seems to be a tad less luma noisy/softer, and seems to not have the same degree of chroma noise reduction as the Sony's. (it is a bit janky and beat up though so idk if it's 100% representative or not.)
I'll get a V65Hi and see if theres a difference. Couldn't find the newer V75Hi right now but I guess the difference is minimal. I hope they're better than the older early-90s Canons. I don't think there exists a working one of those across the world. Probably same cap issue like the Sonys. Off-topic but how hard do you think that is to repair on such cameras?

Which Hi8 players do you got? I have a EV-T2 and EV-C500e. They perform almost identically. They're much nicer to work with than camcorders so it's a shame they perform poorly. Although at times it looks like the video played back on the Sony camcorders looks as if it just has some sharpening applied, compared with the decks, lol.

Also once had a Hitachi Hi8, with TBC. Bummer I sold it. Would've been interesting to compare.
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  #4  
02-09-2022, 09:21 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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I've used Canon Hi8 camcorders; the A1-Digital, L2, and ES6000 over the years back in the 1990s. The A1Digital and L2 both have internal A/D and D/A with frame buffering on playback that can effectively provide some TBC functionality. They used a 1/2" CCD and were good camcorders in their day. However, I believe they also suffer from the SMD capacitor problems and finding one in good working order may be problematic.

For Video8 and Hi8 capture I use a Sony GV-D200 Digital8 walkman, which does include switchable TBC and DNR. It gives a better image than my EV-S7000, which also appears to suffer some SMD capacitor symptoms. However, finding an affordable GV-D200 today is problematic; prices on ebay are higher than when it was new 21 years ago.
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  #5  
02-09-2022, 09:57 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
I've used Canon Hi8 camcorders; the A1-Digital, L2, and ES6000 over the years back in the 1990s. The A1Digital and L2 both have internal A/D and D/A with frame buffering on playback that can effectively provide some TBC functionality. They used a 1/2" CCD and were good camcorders in their day. However, I believe they also suffer from the SMD capacitor problems and finding one in good working order may be problematic.

For Video8 and Hi8 capture I use a Sony GV-D200 Digital8 walkman, which does include switchable TBC and DNR. It gives a better image than my EV-S7000, which also appears to suffer some SMD capacitor symptoms. However, finding an affordable GV-D200 today is problematic; prices on ebay are higher than when it was new 21 years ago.
Here's to hoping the early 2000's Canon camcorders have better components. I also have the PAL variant of the ES6000. Sadly, it's having some trouble playing back tape nowadays. Not sure of any TBC functionality. I'm curious to see how the V65Hi differs. On the "Canon 8mm Camcorder museum" it says that it has Time Base Correction in the description, but no mention of it anywhere in the manual.

I've yet to encounter any of the 8mm walkmen on the used market in my area. However, I could imagine it would have the same chroma issue as the Sony camcorders of the period?
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  #6  
02-09-2022, 11:34 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Yeah it's likely the walkmans and camcorders share a fair bit, so woudln't be surprised if they have the same issue on PAL playback. They seem to at least use the same type of drum and head amp.

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Originally Posted by Kocane View Post
Which Hi8 players do you got? I have a EV-T2 and EV-C500e. They perform almost identically. They're much nicer to work with than camcorders so it's a shame they perform poorly.
It's not technically mine but I have a EV-C2000e sitting here, and I've also used a c400e which is a more basic variant sharing mech and parts of the ICs. There wasn't much difference between the output from them from what I remember, though the c400 doesn't have an OSD so it doesn't blue screen on bad signal unlike the fancier models. They both had a bunch of capacitors in the power supplies going bad. I've heard the fancier s7000/s9000 also have caps elsewhere going bad, including SMD ones, though haven't seen that on the c400/2000, and I haven't seen any SMD electrolyrics on them.

The c400e, c2000e, s7000 and s9000, and T1/T2 all seem to share mech and basic head amp and video ics, with the c2000 adding digital slow/pause, digital Y/C separation (and possibly nr), s7000 and 9000 additionally adding tbc, dnr, PCM audio and a bunch of other stuff, and the T1/T2 being VHS/Hi8 combo decks. The T1 looks like it has the same digital board as the c2000e so I suspect the playback is going to be very similar between them. (presume it doesn't have TBC but just digital YC and slow like the c2000?) There is a newer T2000 combo which seems to still share a fair bit. The EV-T2 seems to just be a EV-T1 with audio dubbing capability?

The c500 seems a bit older with a different mech and video ics (other than using the same head amp ic) and seems to be related to e.g the EV-S3000.

Not sure if there are any Hi8 vcrs using anything akin to the digital decoding chain in the late model camcorders.
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  #7  
02-09-2022, 02:54 PM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Yeah it's likely the walkmans and camcorders share a fair bit, so woudln't be surprised if they have the same issue on PAL playback. They seem to at least use the same type of drum and head amp.
Yeah, probably is like that then. Still, wish I had one. More neat than fiddling about with a camcorder. Also wish I had a friend like 12voltvids.

Quote:
though the c400 doesn't have an OSD so it doesn't blue screen on bad signal unlike the fancier models
Similar to the C500e and EV-T2. I lack of feature I've always rather liked, actually. Gives off the analog vibes

Quote:
The c400e, c2000e, s7000 and s9000, and T1/T2 all seem to share mech and basic head amp and video ics, with the c2000 adding digital slow/pause, digital Y/C separation (and possibly nr), s7000 and 9000 additionally adding tbc, dnr, PCM audio and a bunch of other stuff, and the T1/T2 being VHS/Hi8 combo decks. The T1 looks like it has the same digital board as the c2000e so I suspect the playback is going to be very similar between them. (presume it doesn't have TBC but just digital YC and slow like the c2000?) There is a newer T2000 combo which seems to still share a fair bit.
So you reckon that pretty much no matter what Hi8 deck, no matter how 'high-end' (atleast in some what obtainable, consumer-ish variants) non of them will likely beat a later run of the mill Handycam? If you get the time, I think it would be very interesting to see comparisons between the different models you have.

Quote:
The EV-T2 seems to just be a EV-T1 with audio dubbing capability?
Yup, I think there's nothing more to it. I'd rather have gone for the T2000 because its black and sounds like a Terminator, but alas..
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  #8  
02-09-2022, 03:23 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kocane View Post
So you reckon that pretty much no matter what Hi8 deck, no matter how 'high-end' (atleast in some what obtainable, consumer-ish variants)
.
I haven't used the S7000 or S9000 so not gonna say for sure. There are also the "professional" big Bertha models like evo-9850, no idea how those compare either. I believe someone here is also a fan of the Teac V-800G-F which was used in aircraft and similar but not sure if there is a PAL variant of that at all.

EDIT: This thread has some comparisons of the S9000 vs a d8, and the d8 camcorder vs a hi8 xr model (with a different tape).
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  #9  
02-11-2022, 11:36 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I haven't used the S7000 or S9000 so not gonna say for sure. There are also the "professional" big Bertha models like evo-9850, no idea how those compare either. I believe someone here is also a fan of the Teac V-800G-F which was used in aircraft and similar but not sure if there is a PAL variant of that at all.

EDIT: This thread has some comparisons of the S9000 vs a d8, and the d8 camcorder vs a hi8 xr model (with a different tape).
Interesting thread. Not sure what to conclude from it. My own Hi8 decks do not, I think, have TBC but I think the Panasonic ES10 does a pretty good job. Still, I don't really know what to think. Ive attached two sample photos from one of my tapes. I figure the camcorder does it best but I think it's a weird difference.


Attached Images
File Type: png 1C500e SAmple.png (884.3 KB, 14 downloads)
File Type: png 1TRV95e SAmple.png (902.6 KB, 16 downloads)
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02-11-2022, 01:41 PM
Davis Davis is offline
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I looked at the two images. I think the 1C500e image looks better. It seems to have just a little bit less noise to me. I use a EV-S7000 for capturing 8mm and Hi8. If it's a Dig8 tape I use a Sony D-200 walkman type player. I think both of those do as good a job as you are going to get. I initially capture as uncompressed video and do any editing or cleaning up of the video and then render as uncompressed AVI. I then encode to MPEG2 and author.
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  #11  
02-11-2022, 01:59 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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On that comparison, the TRV-95 maybe sharpens a bit much in some places, but the with the C500 the smearing after dark->bright transisions is a bit excessive and ringy and makes it look worse imo (see e.g right of the windows on the door, or right of the text). The c500 one also has chroma shifted down a bit.

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  #12  
02-12-2022, 03:36 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis View Post
I looked at the two images. I think the 1C500e image looks better. It seems to have just a little bit less noise to me. I use a EV-S7000 for capturing 8mm and Hi8. If it's a Dig8 tape I use a Sony D-200 walkman type player. I think both of those do as good a job as you are going to get. I initially capture as uncompressed video and do any editing or cleaning up of the video and then render as uncompressed AVI. I then encode to MPEG2 and author.
It does seem a little less noisy but isn't that just because there's more smearing?
Could you do a comparison between the deck and a camcorder, if you have the hardware (and if you want to?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
On that comparison, the TRV-95 maybe sharpens a bit much in some places, but the with the C500 the smearing after dark->bright transisions is a bit excessive and ringy and makes it look worse imo (see e.g right of the windows on the door, or right of the text). The c500 one also has chroma shifted down a bit.
Yeah, I think I have to agree. I have attached some more comparison photos. I forgot if this was with the C500e or EV-T2 but I'm not sure there's that much of a difference. I think it's a bit less evident here and it's mostly the datecode that gives it away, imo.


Attached Images
File Type: png deck.png (753.1 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: png camcorder.png (534.7 KB, 11 downloads)
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  #13  
02-16-2022, 01:04 PM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Here is the same frame from the first samples, this time from the Canon V65Hi. Despite not chroma issue like the Sony camcorder, I think it's generally worse. Way more desaturated and greenish.


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File Type: png 1CanonV65hi.png (827.2 KB, 11 downloads)
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  #14  
02-16-2022, 03:39 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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And I prefer the Canon image of the three. The white (wall cabinet door) is a wee bit purer and it shows a tad more detail with less smear. Side-by-side SnippingTool grab (at 195%) from Photoshop attached.


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File Type: png Capture3Sample.PNG (280.0 KB, 12 downloads)
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  #15  
02-17-2022, 02:50 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
And I prefer the Canon image of the three. The white (wall cabinet door) is a wee bit purer and it shows a tad more detail with less smear. Side-by-side SnippingTool grab (at 195%) from Photoshop attached.
Thanks for input and comparison! I see what you mean, the difference is quite small compared to the TRV95e though, imo. Don't you think it looks too desaturated? I actually like the colors of the C500e the best. I know it can be fixed in post process, or the capture card can be adjusted but I'd really rather not.

I just tried recording some vidoe with the Canon camera and captured it with both the Sony deck and camcorder. Seems a bit like the camcorder has a tendency to make bright things brighter.


Attached Images
File Type: png canontape_trv95e.png (843.7 KB, 11 downloads)
File Type: png canontape_c500e.png (862.7 KB, 9 downloads)

Last edited by Kocane; 02-17-2022 at 03:02 AM.
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  #16  
06-07-2022, 03:25 AM
Kocane Kocane is offline
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I also acquired a Hitachi Digital8 (PAL) camcorder and can confirm that it looks much the same as the Canon. It's not that it's bad per se but colors are just very muted compared to Sonys, so I think Sonys just delivers an over all more pleasant image.
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