Quantcast Capture VHS video using a Blackmagic USB? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
05-14-2022, 11:45 AM
scoostraw scoostraw is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I am trying to capture VHS video using a Blackmagic USB device. I have confirmed that I have a good composite signal in, but I have a black screen on the Media Express screen.

My video setting is 525i59.94 NTSC. This is a USB device and I am on a Mac running Catalina. The computer recognizes the Blackmagic device.

This is my first time doing this, so I am probably missing something.

If anyone can help me, I would really appreciate it!!
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
05-14-2022, 12:15 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,323
Thanked 328 Times in 273 Posts
First troubleshooting step for something like this: remove VHS from the equation.

Instead feed your capture device with "stable, standard video": the output of a DVD player, cable set-top box, etc. (Don't use an old video game console either, because those put out non-standard video.)

Note that Blackmagic devices are notorious on these forums, in a bad way. They aren't recommended for VHS capture.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
05-14-2022, 12:26 PM
scoostraw scoostraw is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks very much for the reply msgohan.

I had the input on the Blackmagic set on component instead of composite. It is now working.

Now to decide what sort of quality I am getting. At first blush it does not look bad. (I'm using a VHS/DVD combo unit as my source)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
05-14-2022, 12:37 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: VA
Posts: 1,407
Thanked 320 Times in 278 Posts
Which specific BM USB device?
Do you get sound but no black picture?

FWIW: The Intensity Shuttle was known to be finicky.

I don't know about the Mac or your USB system, but with some you have to be precise in both the video format in Media Express (which yours sounds OK) and and also configure the capture device for the right input connection type (e.g., composite vs s-video vs component vs HDMI).

Also, have you tried the Black Magic Designs user support forums? They may have a larger community with directly related experience.
---
Whoops, I see you solved it - good, my response crossed in the mails.

Last edited by dpalomaki; 05-14-2022 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Update
Reply With Quote
  #5  
05-14-2022, 04:06 PM
scoostraw scoostraw is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi dpalomaki thanks for the reply.

I have the Intensity Shuttle USB device. Yes I did register and posted at the Black Magic forum, but they don't seem to be very active over there.

I am now trying to figure out how to de-interlace my capture using Hybrid. This is definitely not easily understood for a first-timer..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
05-14-2022, 08:43 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,688
Thanked 2,138 Times in 1,839 Posts
Typical problem.

Blackmagic is a great HD card, but terrible SD (VHS/etc) card. Poor afterthought feature. In past years, BM support would admit it. Inducing dropped frames, no dropped frames counter/info, etc. This is the wrong tool for this task. Set this item aside, you need to get the proper tool to capture VHS. If you're stubborn, and insist on using the BM card for VHS, you'll just punish yourself, and it'll never work well, or at all.

Lack of TBC is the other main issue. Both frame and line. At least frame to clean signal, but you should add line to clean up the image too.

You're basically doing everything wrong. The quality from the cheap DVD/VHS combo will almost always be crummy at best. And then the BM card is simply not cooperative to analog SD formats.

What brand and model of VHS/DVD unit?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #7  
05-15-2022, 05:41 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,132
Thanked 364 Times in 334 Posts
BM Intensity Shuttle is useless for VHS, Better check your captures before spending too much time and finding flaws, look for audio/video sync at the end of your captures, also post a short clip here so we can pinpoint some flaws such as flagging, line wiggle ...etc. especially when capturing from a mediocre connection such as composite.

https://www.youtube.com/user/latoak34/videos
Reply With Quote
  #8  
05-15-2022, 06:52 AM
scoostraw scoostraw is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Typical problem.

Blackmagic is a great HD card, but terrible SD (VHS/etc) card. Poor afterthought feature. In past years, BM support would admit it. Inducing dropped frames, no dropped frames counter/info, etc. This is the wrong tool for this task. Set this item aside, you need to get the proper tool to capture VHS. If you're stubborn, and insist on using the BM card for VHS, you'll just punish yourself, and it'll never work well, or at all.

Lack of TBC is the other main issue. Both frame and line. At least frame to clean signal, but you should add line to clean up the image too.

You're basically doing everything wrong. The quality from the cheap DVD/VHS combo will almost always be crummy at best. And then the BM card is simply not cooperative to analog SD formats.

What brand and model of VHS/DVD unit?
Thanks for the reply lordsmurf.

I am using a Panasonic DMR-ES35V combo unit. It supposedly has a built-in TBC so the signal can be used to burn DVDs.

Regarding a separate TBC, I wish I could find something at a price that made sense.

This is the video I based my process on:
https://youtu.be/_3QH_-Tzzxk

And here is a clip from one of my first captures (it needs to be de-interlaced). This is not from a commercial tape, but it's a movie that I recorded from cable back in the day:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gt87qy9luq...%2004.mov?dl=0

I'm just getting started here. This is my first attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
BM Intensity Shuttle is useless for VHS, Better check your captures before spending too much time and finding flaws, look for audio/video sync at the end of your captures, also post a short clip here so we can pinpoint some flaws such as flagging, line wiggle ...etc. especially when capturing from a mediocre connection such as composite.
Hi latreche34,

What other choice do I have besides composite?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
05-15-2022, 08:26 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,132
Thanked 364 Times in 334 Posts
S-Video using a S-VHS machine.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
05-15-2022, 09:31 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,323
Thanked 328 Times in 273 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoostraw View Post
I am using a Panasonic DMR-ES35V combo unit. It supposedly has a built-in TBC
It does have the same (or similar enough) "TBC" functionality as DMR-ES15, which LS calls TBC(ish).

I personally think your sample looks pretty much as good as that particular old cable recording could look. Need some other source examples.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
05-15-2022, 12:02 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 248
Thanked 84 Times in 61 Posts
If your capture path is VCR with line TBC & external frame TBC then the Blackmagic is the wrong capture card because the analog inputs composite, Y/C, component are not recommended.

But if you want to use a VCR with a DVD recorder in passthrough as a TBC replacement, then the Blackmagic Shuttle is quite recommendable. Provided you use a DVD-Recorder that has an HDMI output. In conjunction with an HDMI splitter to remove the HDCP encryption, you only get the digital stream without any additional digital to analog conversion.

The whole thing has been tested extensively for PAL Equipment on german video forum and can be read here if you follow the link in my post:
Buy better VCR or denoise software?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
05-15-2022, 04:55 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,132
Thanked 364 Times in 334 Posts
HDMI route is not recommended, Component is okay.

https://www.youtube.com/user/latoak34/videos
Reply With Quote
  #13  
05-15-2022, 06:40 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,688
Thanked 2,138 Times in 1,839 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
But if you want to use a VCR with a DVD recorder in passthrough as a TBC replacement, then the Blackmagic Shuttle is quite recommendable.
The problem here is that a DVD recorder is a hackish cheat with reduced quality. A DVD recorder is not a TBC, nor TBC replacement. It's a workaround with known caveats and problems. So in that context, sure, BM may work. But so will most other cards, including better cards.

BM cards, however, are never recommended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoostraw View Post
I am using a Panasonic DMR-ES35V combo unit. It supposedly has a built-in TBC so the signal can be used to burn DVDs.
Regarding a separate TBC, I wish I could find something at a price that made sense.
Made sense how? TBCs are historically mostly in the $1k+ range, with a few models being in the ~$500 range. Fast forward 20-25 years, add inflation (2x+ for AV gear avg), market demand (still here, though reduced against reduced supply), and those boxes still sell for the same price when new. Note that scarcity (units failing, less supply) means market demand is at parity when items new. The lull, more used supply than demand, happened about 10 years ago. So prices can make sense.

What you have to watch out for is units that are damaged, faulty, etc. Bad cap TBC-1000s, flawed chipset black AVT-8710, etc. Wrong models, especially rackmount junk, or even lying eBay sellers that claim bad models are good. Avoid those. This is why I refurb TBCs in the marketplace, help folks avoid bad buys, make sure they get the good gear needed, in good condition.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #14  
05-16-2022, 11:37 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 248
Thanked 84 Times in 61 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
HDMI route is not recommended, Component is okay.
Why don't you show us one of your examples why HDMI is not recommended. Upload an example of your captures with HDMI vs SDI vs Y/C so we can all see the pros or cons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The problem here is that a DVD recorder is a hackish cheat with reduced quality. A DVD recorder is not a TBC, nor TBC replacement. It's a workaround with known caveats and problems. So in that context, sure, BM may work. But so will most other cards, including better cards.

BM cards, however, are never recommended.
The Blackmagic Shuttle is quite recommendable in connection with capturing via the HDMI output of a dvd-recorder. But also only for that.

The linked tutorial was the final result of 2 years of intensive testing with many different capture cards and dvd-recorders.
Surely there are also disadvantages by the use of the DVD-Recorder as TBC replacement but also the JVC-SVHS video recorder, Datavideo TBC-1000 or Cypress AVT-8710 highly praised by Lord Smurf have disadvantages. Not to mention the highly praised ATI AIW or ATI600 USB capture cards which are known to recognize macrovision even though macrovision does not occur.

As usual the experts decide with thumbs up or thumbs down if a device is good for capturing or not without even having worked with it. The judgments are based on hearsay or dislike of some brands and not on own experiences.

There is no perfect way to capture. The used hardware depends on the cassettes to be recorded and their content.

The contributor has a Blackmagic Shuttle, before he sells his car to buy the recommended hardware by Lord Smurf he should rather try the DVD-Recorder with HDMI way. If he is not satisfied he can always invest thousands of dollars with no guarantee that the result will be better.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank Bogilein for this useful post: msgohan (Yesterday)
  #15  
05-16-2022, 12:25 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,688
Thanked 2,138 Times in 1,839 Posts
Quote:
The whole thing has been tested extensively for PAL Equipment on german video forum
To revisit this quote, that's great. But this exact model of DVD recorder fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Surely there are also disadvantages by the use of the DVD-Recorder as TBC replacement but also the JVC-SVHS video recorder, Datavideo TBC-1000 or Cypress AVT-8710 highly praised by Lord Smurf have disadvantages.
That's as disingenuous as saying (in reference to politics) "both sides do it". Both do stuff, but very often one side does it far worse, inferior, sometimes deviously deceptive about it. The same is true of certain video hardware, be it the % of flaws/artifacts/errors, or the absolute BS nonsense espoused about it (best example = Canopus marketing from eons ago, nonsense BS that only suckered newbies).

Note that I don't praise TBC-1000 and AVT-8710 as much in recent years. The gear has aged badly. TBC-1000 caps, green AVT-8710 reduced life due to misuse/overheat. There are better TBCs, though rarer, and usually more costly. (DVD recorders are not immune, caps issues there, too.) Unless you're buying refurb or certified (by somebody that understand video, not a lying eBay goober), some gear needs to be avoided. Either that, or expect it to need work before usable.

Quote:
Not to mention the highly praised ATI AIW or ATI600 USB capture cards which are known to recognize macrovision even though macrovision does not occur.
Every capture cards does that to some degree. All of them, 100%, even cards that "ignore" the protections. Why? Because artificial errors look like natural/legit errors, and that still causes problems. Hence need for frame TBC.

Quote:
There is no perfect way to capture. The used hardware depends on the cassettes to be recorded and their content.
This is true, but only to a point. You need to be picking from a list of widely accepted items, known for quality, not random gear. Especially not gear that "also does" (NEVER DOES!) this or that. Not something cheap. Not some "adapter" (HDMI, etc).

Quote:
The contributor has a Blackmagic Shuttle, before he sells his car
That has to be one terrible car. My first car, used, several decades ago, cheap POS-mobile (it ate alternators like candy), still cost more than a full workflow with an ideal TBC. These days, you can't even find a running vehicle for that price, unless you're in some 2nd/3rd world country, and the car is from decades ago.

Quote:
he should rather try the DVD-Recorder with HDMI way.
It really depends on the recorder, is trying it as passthrough. Few in NTSC do it, PAL a few more. But still a rare features, not something you get with any random DVD recorder. But the HDMI aspect tends to still be the issues, especially for NTSC (forced deinterlace, etc). But PAL is no darling, many of those DVD recorders blend deinterlace (instead of drop-field like NTSC). Both often force upscale, hence requirement to deinterlace.

I agree, try it, if you already have the gear. But if starting from zero, do not buy such a setup. Not suggested. Problems.

A user here has the Panasonic DMR-ES35V, and his video captures often look like blurry mush. The combo internally converts VHS to composite, so it's never proper separated (s-video) output. We recently had this discussion here. The s-video output is more like "composite DIN" output, because it was composited internally.

When you composite video, the TBC will not work well, correctly, or at all.

Related post: Panasonic DMR ES35 VCR DVD recorder opinions?

People often try tricks to avoid TBCs. But the outcome is almost always reduced video, sometimes very reduced (butchered). That's simply how video works. I do suggest ES10/15/etc for TBC(ish), but not to be used to record or play. Just passthrough. It's a cheat, there are quality hits, but it is cheap. If some money matters more than quality, there you go, have at it.

I don't like spending money on TBCs either. But I also hate spending money on lawn mowers, dishwashers, hot water heaters, refrigerators, etc. Unfortunately, those are just tools we need for tasks we choose to partake (video, kitchen conveniences, etc). Thus is life. Also remember: buy cheap, buy twice.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #16  
05-16-2022, 03:42 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,357
Thanked 358 Times in 303 Posts
The ES35 essentially a ES15 + VCR so if the VCR part in it is mediocre one could use a different one and the ES35 as just pass-through like one would with a ES15 instead of hunting for a standalone model. If OP already has a ES35 and a blackmagic, I would start from there. Trying first with the component out of the ES35 whether using internal VCR or just as pass-through (provided it allows interlaced out over component without any scaling but I think both the US and european ones do judging by the manual.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If your capture path is VCR with line TBC & external frame TBC then the Blackmagic is the wrong capture card because the analog inputs composite, Y/C, component are not recommended.
I know they have some issues with composite and Y/C (at least the one I've used had interference on the Y/C input), but what issue have you encountered with the component input on it? I've used it a fair bit to capture component output from a dvd-recorder, never had issues with that other than I think adjusting video levels gave weird artifacts. That's not an issue normally though as the defaults for the component input have been ok.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank hodgey for this useful post: msgohan (Yesterday)
  #17  
05-16-2022, 03:51 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 2,132
Thanked 364 Times in 334 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Why don't you show us one of your examples why HDMI is not recommended. Upload an example of your captures with HDMI vs SDI vs Y/C so we can all see the pros or cons.
It's the wrong port to begin with, no need to go further and waste time making samples, HDMI does not abide by rec.601 rules for analog to digital SD capturing, it can be literally any rec. or rec.xyz, wrong color space, wrong IRE levels, sometimes wrong aspect ratio and even wrong resolution and progressive.

Why everybody is worked up about SDI? it's just a freaking digital port, actually the first port used to convert analog to digital using a D1 digital tape format, the first application of the rec.601 on the field or at least one of the first applications.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
05-16-2022, 06:04 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: VA
Posts: 1,407
Thanked 320 Times in 278 Posts
In Black Magic capture of SD video

First: I have used the Intensity Pro and Intensity pro 4K. I have not used the Intensity Shuttle.

Assuming a within spec NTSC signal (e.g., my tests were using signal generators and color bars)

The Intensity Pro captures the bars at the expected levels from Composite, Y/C. component, and HDMI sources.

The Intensity Pro 4K provided correct levels (within 1 IRE) for HDMI, composite, and Y/C inputs but the component input capture was totally useless for both SD and HD signals. BMD acknowledged this several years ago and has no plans to fix it - which implies to me it is a chip-set issue, not firmware.

The other primary issue is that the devices required a good, spec compliant input signal.

I do not know where the Shuttle lies between the Pro and Pro 4K models. It is something to watch for.

My position is give the gear you have a good try. If YOU are satisfied you can declare victory and move on to the next project. If you are not satisfied then explore other options as suggested on this board. Keep in mind that the regulars here by and large have a very tuned eyes and recommend what they have found works well in the broadest range of circumstances and tapes.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank dpalomaki for this useful post: msgohan (Yesterday)
  #19  
Yesterday, 03:47 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,323
Thanked 328 Times in 273 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Every capture cards does that to some degree. All of them, 100%, even cards that "ignore" the protections. Why? Because artificial errors look like natural/legit errors, and that still causes problems. Hence need for frame TBC.
Without testing 100% of capture cards, how can anyone possibly say that?

What is the circuitry and firmware in the frame TBC doing that is fundamentally impossible for a capture card design to accomplish? Had Datavideo made a version of their TBC-100 PCI card that was an actual capture card instead of a board with dummy PCI connector, would it react like "100% of cards" instead of properly clearing the errors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
There is no perfect way to capture. The used hardware depends on the cassettes to be recorded and their content.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
This is true, but only to a point. You need to be picking from a list of widely accepted items, known for quality, not random gear. Especially not gear that "also does" (NEVER DOES!) this or that. Not something cheap.
It can't be good unless it's widely said to be good? (Note: the HDMI DVD recorder method you discourage is widely-accepted on the German Gleitz forum, and came out on top overall in their quality testing. Who are we supposed to believe and why?)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Yesterday, 10:40 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,688
Thanked 2,138 Times in 1,839 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Without testing 100% of capture cards, how can anyone possibly say that?
Not really. The number of capture card chipsets was far more limited than the number of cards (and clones, and near-clones/"clones", and outright rebadges). Conexant/Philips, ADI, Xilinx, Intel, TI, etc --- they didn't make a huge variety of chips, very often "multiple" chips was minor updates (or simply new production runs, chips mostly unchanged for thew new "model").

Quote:
What is the circuitry and firmware in the frame TBC doing that is fundamentally impossible for a capture card design to accomplish?
Lots of things. Let's start here: FPGA. Not found on capture card.

Quote:
Had Datavideo made a version of their TBC-100 PCI card that was an actual capture card instead of a board with dummy PCI connector, would it react like "100% of cards" instead of properly clearing the errors?
No. But don't think this is a "gotcha". For extant cards, 100% is correct. If a TBC+capture cards had actually existed (and it doesn't), then it'd probably be 99%.

Quote:
It can't be good unless it's widely said to be good? (Note: the HDMI DVD recorder method you discourage is widely-accepted on the German Gleitz forum, and came out on top overall in their quality testing. Who are we supposed to believe and why?)
Youtubers also widely accepts Easycap, or HDMI converters, as bestest ever cards. Both ridiculous bottom-quality methods. I'm not swayed.

For starters, German is PAL, and unfortunately NTSC DVD recorders screwed us over, by messing with the signal with atrocious processing. But even if we only focus on PAL here...

Models matters. Both card and recorder. This capture card is known to have defects with SD input. Fine, you say, I'll just use the HDMI. Well, no. Again, DVD recorders do not have frame TBCs inside. At best, non-TBC frame sync, married to line TBCs (some strong, some laughably weak). Sadly, many also marry it to NR that won't turn off (even if it seems to have an on/off, we're all too stupid to the manufacturers to known if we want NR entirely off, so it's actually low/high). Anyway, that non-TBC recorder can still output mistimed source.

It then comes down to the source tapes. If you have SP only camcorder tapes, it probably works. But if you have nth gen tapes, or VCR made tapes, good luck. Results will be all over the place. You have to remember I come from the hobby/underground VHS collector/trading scene. That source is far uglier than typical. But everybody has tapes like this, be it damaged or copies of copies. The "easy button" transfer method is an actual VCR>TBC>capture workflow, not the sorta/kinda workflow.

This is a case by case basis. What I don't like is when the low-end methods are overstated in ability. There's a fine line between cheat/workable methods, and BS.

When it comes to the exact recorder and exact capture card being discussed here, I've seen the captures. Yuck.

Other recorders, other cards? I'm sure there is a degree of workability there. I can craft many degrees of workflow, from those (1) "I hope/pray it works" to (2) "it should work decent for most tapes" to (3) "this will work for almost everything you give it". And these DVD recorder methods are NOT that last method. Definitely 1st, can be 2nd.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blackmagic capture, no dropped frames? durian Capture, Record, Transfer 33 02-09-2022 09:49 PM
VHS analog capture with Blackmagic is black screen? DePhoegon Capture, Record, Transfer 44 02-23-2020 07:56 PM
PAL capture test: AIWs, 600 USB, Blackmagic jjdd Capture, Record, Transfer 14 02-11-2020 09:45 AM
New capture board with pro TBC? (Blackmagic) josje22 Capture, Record, Transfer 8 04-28-2018 08:05 AM
Help with Capture Equipment - ATI vs Blackmagic vs Canopus vs Matrox rigama61 Capture, Record, Transfer 8 11-14-2010 11:48 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:24 AM