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  #1  
09-20-2010, 01:27 AM
Nightshiver Nightshiver is offline
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First, I'd like to thank the brilliant guys behind this site and how friendly they are, which is the main reason why I bought a membership. Now, on to my questions

I've already got a s-vhs player, but what I've been debating on is whether or not I should get a TBC and what kind of capture device I should use. For capture devices, I've been looking at the Canopus ADVC 110 for a while, but from browsing this forum, it seems Canopus is frowned upon for charging high dollar for getting little in return, while other reviews from other sites praise it. I've heard the ATI 600 usb be suggested a couple of times, and also the ATI aiw cards.

What I'm simply trying to do is capture some old VHS tapes of my dads from way back when and put them on DVD. I'm not a novice when it comes to video work, having been around the video cleaning scene for about 3 years. But I haven't dealt with the hardware side of things very much. I guess I really just don't know what capture device is worth my money, as I've also come across some ebay deals for the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 and PVR 500.


Now, for the TBC side of things. The videos I have for the most part really don't have bad jitter, and what little jitter there is, is mostly taken care of by my s-vhs player. (Which is a JVC BR-S800U, in case you wanted to know)
Now, hear me out, I've seen that you reccommend 2 TBC's, but I'd also just like to check my options/open up a little bit. Could you guys take a look at some of the TBC's I've found on eBay and tell me if I'm just barking mad for looking at them or if any of them actually hold value?

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

Link 5

Whew, lot of links. For the capture method, your small guide says that MPEG is better for just small time cutting/splicing, and this is more than likely what I'll be doing, as none of the videos I have require any actual "editing" or "heavy editing", just some small cuts here and there. Thanks for taking the time to read all this and reply!
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  #2  
09-20-2010, 05:44 PM
Nightshiver Nightshiver is offline
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In addition to all of this, since there seems to be no edit button for posts, for the capture device, I actually would not need the ATI 600 or something like it. I don't need a tuner, and further searching has produced that DV capturing produces a better quality than MPEG. I can edit both types just fine, so editing isn't an issue. I guess I'm just hoping that there's a slightly cheaper alternative to the ADVC110 that can do DV capture and has no problems with sync'ing audio and video.

Also, I see a lot of ATI aiw cards on eBay, but they say they are the PAL format ones. Will those PAL cards work for capturing my VHS footage here, which is NTSC?

EDIT: Nevermind, my motherboard doesn't have an AGP slot. Those kinds of capturing devices will not work for me.

Last edited by Nightshiver; 09-20-2010 at 06:26 PM.
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  #3  
09-21-2010, 01:41 PM
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I want to answer this more in depth, but it will be a few more days. In the meantime, I do want to give a few brief answers and comments...

1.
Older broadcast rack-mounted TBCs generally don't have much value for VHS-to-DVD transfer work. They were designed with other tasks in mind, and do not always lend themselves to the VHS>DVD process as well as more modern TBCs, such as the TBC-1000 or AVT-8710.

2.
The DV format is good for shooting, but it has quality concerns for conversion work. Colors and values tend to get cooked a bit, and you'll see this discussed and debated quite a bit online. I'm of the opinion, as are others, that DV was not created with conversion in mind -- it was created for shooting digital video on cameras. The earliest documents I've ever seen, regarding DV tech, never discussed it as a conversion format. I would suggest high bitrate MPEG-2 is a much better choice for conversion.

3.
The ATI 600 has a coax TV tuner input, yes, but you don't have to use it. The card is excellent for capturing video, via s-video or composite input, and can record to several available formats (MPEG-2, lossless AVI, uncompressed AVI). Much of this has been discussed on the forum in the past few months.

And I'll reply more in depth this weekend.

Back soon.

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  #4  
09-21-2010, 02:38 PM
Nightshiver Nightshiver is offline
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Ok, look forward to your answer. In the meantime, I don't know how well the ATI 600 USB would work for me, as I use Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit and from reviews from Amazon, many people have a hard time getting it to work since ATI never wrote drivers for Win7. There have also been issues of frame dropping/un-sync issues as well.

Another thing, if I use something like the Hauppauge PVR 250 or the ATI USB stick, do I have to use the software included with each of those items or will I still be able to capture the video with whatever program I chose (i.e., VirtualDub or Premiere Pro)?

Last edited by Nightshiver; 09-21-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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  #5  
09-21-2010, 09:52 PM
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I would assume the ATI 600 with Vdub will work with W7 32 bit because it will work with W7 64 and Vista64 found here with instructions to get it to work on them however Admin can give more accurate and specifics on yours when he has time.
You may not even need these instructions but is given as an example.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...-pre-1727.html

I know Virtualdub plus ATI 600 will work with Vista 64, it works on mine but I have only played around with it a couple times. Because I am new at capturing to computer, there are some things I need to get ironed out, I am presently capturing to DVD recorders which is not a bad way of doing it anyway and will likely be the main way I do my capturing.
Wait however for Admin's answers to your questions so he can help you make the best decisions, I am new at video capture myself.
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  #6  
09-27-2010, 10:43 AM
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Well, I have to say I am a little disappointed. Paying for advice and not getting it for a week + is slightly ridiculous.
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  #7  
09-27-2010, 01:06 PM
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There was a last-minute change in my weekend travel scheduling. Offline for past three days. And since I'd already claimed the question, it appears others did not respond (pending my reply). So here goes...

Quote:
I've already got a s-vhs player, but what I've been debating on is whether or not I should get a TBC
While many people try to avoid the cost of a TBC, it tends to be an inevitable purchase for anybody that starts to transfer videos -- especially if you're converting dozens or even hundreds of VHS tapes to DVD.

For most people, the TBC-8710 is the best option: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...3167/KBID/4166
The TBC-1000 is excellent, too, but I generally on suggest that one when somebody is also needing a distribution amp (meaning the TBC outputs to multiple capture devices): http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...3167/KBID/4166

Quote:
and what kind of capture device I should use. For capture devices, I've been looking at the Canopus ADVC 110 for a while, but from browsing this forum, it seems Canopus is frowned upon for charging high dollar for getting little in return, while other reviews from other sites praise it. I've heard the ATI 600 usb be suggested a couple of times, and also the ATI aiw cards.
.... I guess I really just don't know what capture device is worth my money, as I've also come across some ebay deals for the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 and PVR 500.
I would compare buying capture cards to buying cars.
  • I want a car that gets good mileage in-city or on the highway, can store some things for a trip (good trunk space), yet still has some pickup when I mash my foot on the gas. In other words, something that is versatile, yet quality.
  • Somebody else might want a truck because they like to haul a lot of stuff, and are willing to take the hit on mileage. But it also has to be a good vehicle for all-around use, be it driving in town or taking a week-long road trip.
  • And then there's going to be the person who wants to buy an expensive sports car. Although it does carry a prestige value to some, it's generally not a good vehicle outside of a race track. And even then, it can be subpar. It has no storage space, it gets awful mileage, and is unfit for general use. It's a specialty vehicle, made with one limited goal in mind: speed and bragging rights.
I would compare the Canopus card to the sports car. It does just one thing -- DV capturing -- and it does it rather mediocre. It costs a ton of money compared to other options, and you get almost nothing for the price. Further adding insult to injury, you can also capture DV with other devices for far less costs. The ATI 600 can do the same thing the Canopus ADVC 110 does. And then imagine that the sports car can only drive 70mph anyway -- this is essentially what you run into with DV. It's a fixed format. So you're buying a sports car for huge sums of money when it's not going to perform any different from a normal non-racing vehicle, as both have the same engine inside!

The ATI 600 is more like the normal car -- versatile, yet quality.

The Hauppauge series of cards is more like the truck. It's really good at MPEG, and it can do some lossless/uncompressed AVI with tweaks/hacks, but you take a hit in some areas. For example, Hauppauge is soft-focus quality compared to ATI and some others. And then the software isn't all that enjoyable to use. Great card, but it has a few minor nuisances. Sort of like having limited passenger room, no trunk and lousy mileage. But many people put up with it because it hauls so well (encodes MPEG so well).

You'd want a PVR-250 or PVR-350 only from Hauppauge, not the other models.

Quote:
What I'm simply trying to do is capture some old VHS tapes of my dads from way back when and put them on DVD. I'm not a novice when it comes to video work, having been around the video cleaning scene for about 3 years.
What sort of post-capture work will you be doing, if any? Any editing, restoring or filtering the video, etc? This does matter, and should be taken into account before video is captured. Honestly, this is one of only a few determining factors (with source quality being the other big one).

Which leads into the next quote...
Will ALL of your videos get the same treatment, or do you plan to edit/restore some and not others? If so, then you'll want a versatile setup for sure.

Quote:
For the capture method, your small guide says that MPEG is better for just small time cutting/splicing, and this is more than likely what I'll be doing, as none of the videos I have require any actual "editing" or "heavy editing", just some small cuts here and there.
Yes, assuming the source is clean enough to record directly to MPEG, and you're using a quality MPEG recording device, then MPEG is the easiest and quickest method to simply transfer and splice video. To me, anything that can be done with tape and scissors (if it were film) is not "editing" in the realm of digital video editing. That's a much simpler task than compositing, effects, titling, etc, that generally go with editing work.

Quote:
since there seems to be no edit button for posts
The edit button times out after an hour. There were some issues in the past where people would vastly change the content of posts days (sometimes weeks, months or even YEARS later) and destroy the whole topic. That's counter-productive to a forum.

Just add new posts, as you've done, if there is a change or more to add.

Quote:
for the capture device, I actually would not need the ATI 600 or something like it. I don't need a tuner
Just ignore the tuner functions. Buy the card based on its other merits. I almost never user tuners either, yet most of my capture devices have them as well. Some are analog tuners, in fact, completely useless to me (because I don't have analog cable) since the 2009 digital transition.

Quote:
I don't know how well the ATI 600 USB would work for me, as I use Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit
It should work fine. Just use the Vista drivers.

Quote:
and from reviews from Amazon, many people have a hard time getting it to work since ATI never wrote drivers for Win7
I would mention that most people who leave negative reviews online are idiots, when it comes to known-quality products. You'll often find silly complaints that display their complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Rather than use the Internet to research a fix, they use the Internet to cry in public. It's really quite sad. All of the information that is available, including from this very site, yet the most effort these people can muster is "sucks, doesn't work, awful, wahh wahh". I would suggest most negative ATI 600 comments are like this.

Quote:
There have also been issues of frame dropping/un-sync issues as well.
This always comes back to the computer in use, or the habits of the user, and not the cards. Read the guide on fixing dropped frames for video capturing. It also addresses audio sync, as audio sync and dropped frames are generally the same thing.

Link: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/guides/vid...ped-frames.htm

Quote:
if I use something like the Hauppauge PVR 250 or the ATI USB stick, do I have to use the software included with each of those items or will I still be able to capture the video with whatever program I chose (i.e., VirtualDub or Premiere Pro)
You'd never want to capture with Premiere. Great editor, but way too bloated. It will cause sync issues and dropped frames, because it's such a resource hog.

You can capture lossless/uncompressed AVI with VirtualDub with most cards, it's been discussed on the forum. The ATI 600 works with it, while the Canopus ADVC does not.

For DVD-Video MPEG, you'd have to use the ATI Catalyst Media Center (ATI CMC) software.

For non-DVD broadcast spec MPEG, you can use VirtualDub with the free Matrox codecs.

Going back to your TBC links on eBay, FOR-A and Leitch (former DPS TBCs) are really the only broadcast brands I'd ever consider. I had the DPS-220, and it wasn't anything special in terms of regular TBC functionality (ignoring the dropout compensator).

Most TBCs are also limited to BNC connections, which have to be turned into composite connectors. You can't use s-video with these devices, which is a quality-limiting factor for VHS work. You really do want s-video continously from VCR, through any secondary devices, right up to the capture card input. Composite is almost always noticeably lower quality video, both in detail and in chroma quality/noise.

The other big turn-off of using these TBCs is the size. The broadcast TBCs are full rack-mount devices, the same width as a VCR, half height, but at least 1.5x deep. It doesn't fit anywhere conveniently, unless you want to dedicate a portion of your office/home to a big bulky rack. I truly despise the sharp metal edges, too.

If you're in a gambling mood, there are some TBC-1000's cheap as-is untested for about $50 right now.
See http://shop.ebay.com/resellelectroni....c0.m270.l1313. And don't worry about the "no power cord" thing -- the power specs are written on the TBC label on back, and you can get one at Radio Shack for about $25.

Quote:
and what kind of capture device I should use
Going back to this, it would help to know what your computer slots are. AGP vs PCI Express, PCI, USB2, Firewire 400/800, etc. Some of that will also determine what you can and cannot use.

An older ATI All In Wonder card, for example, is an excellent card. But it needs PCI (for one model) or AGP (for most models). These are also limited to WinXP, 2000, 9x. No Vista, no 7.

And are you determined to use your current computer, or would you consider an inexpensive dedicated capture box? Sometimes a dedicated box running Windows XP is the best solution for video. The video and audio communities have no love for Windows Vista and Windows 7, as it did almost nothing for us.

Hope that helps.


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  #8  
09-27-2010, 02:02 PM
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Well, I'll start answering.

For post-production, I plan on giving all videos some form of restoration/filtering treatment, but I will tailor that filtering to each video, as each video is different.

As for the dropping frames guide (needing a better computer) and not capturing in Premiere, I do understand that it's a resource hog, but I also have a much beefier computer than most people.

Core i7 930
6 gigs of RAM at 1600 mhz
GTX 465 (Video card)
Plenty of harddrive space.

However, I will probably use VirtualDub anyway or the CMC if I chose the ATI usb stick.

Also, I have seen those $50 untested TBC-1000s, but I just don't want to gamble on getting one that doesn't work. For Motherboard, I said before in a post that I have no AGP slots, but do have PCI and PCI-e slots. The Hauppauge cards work with PCI slots and there are some ATI AIW cards for the PCI slots, but I don't think I'll get a AIW card. More than likely I'll get either the PVR-250 or the ATI usb stick.

Windows 7 Ultimate also includes the ability to have Windows XP run in what they call "Virtual XP Mode" which essentially means it just installs the entire XP OS and you can use that for legacy things if you so wish.

Oh, I also have Firewire ports, but that doesn't mean much for the capture card or usb stick. As for the TBC's, I'll just have to wait on that.

I don't think you mentioned it, but can VirtualDub be used with the Hauppauge card or will I be forced to use whatever software Hauppauge supplies? And thank you for answering my post, good information in there!
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  #9  
09-27-2010, 02:17 PM
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I would also suggest it's not necessarily the power of the computer as much as Premiere just isn't coded that well for capturing. Think of it as an editing program that also has the ability to capture video -- a "value added" feature. But, as with anything else, such bonus features don't always work that well. All the R&D time went into the primary function of the program, and not the additional features. So even with a supercomputer powering the software, you may still run into sync/drops issues that are purely the fault of the software. Watch for that.

I need to try Windows XP mode sometime. I've just not used it, because I have so many XP machines. Plus that Windows 7 machine is for a specific task -- encoding H.264.

For the ability to capture to both AVI and MPEG-2, I'd opt for the ATI 600 stick from Amazon, currently less than $50 shipped.
Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B00138EOH8

For MPEG-2 only, the Hauppauge would serve you well. One of the new guides in October .... strike that.

THREE new guides in October will be helpful to you, in some way. One is for legacy PVR Hauppauge WinTV cards, and the other two are for ATI 600 MPEG capturing and AVI capturing via VirtualDub. That's the plan, anyway.

I'd say the TBC-1000 is worth it. If I had funds, I'd buy several myself, test them, add a power cord, and easily be able to sell it for double my investment time. ($200 apiece, probably!) But I have to pass on that for now, other things need doing, higher priority than flipping gear. There's a chance I'd buy duds, but it's really hard to kill a TBC from DataVideo. It's a plain metal box with no controls, and the TBC-1000 could be tossed by a tornado and likely still survive. Something to consider.

If you want to restore video, I'd really look at the ATI 600, between the choices mentioned so far.

Premiere CS3 and CS4 are proving themselves to be quite decent at restoration filter, color-wise. I may drop VirtualDub Colormill moving forward, and focus more on using CS4. I just did a project purely in Premiere, and preferred it over the somewhat-unstable Colormill GUI. In years past, this really was a weak area for Premiere.

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  #10  
09-27-2010, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
I need to try Windows XP mode sometime. I've just not used it, because I have so many XP machines. Plus that Windows 7 machine is for a specific task -- encoding H.264.
Yes, I mainly enjoy encoding to h264, but as this little project will be for "older" things, I'll be using mpeg2. But that doesn't mean Win7 isn't good only for h264, I've also encoded other things into mpeg2 and my machine does it magnificently fast. I did also say that I'm more than likely not going to capture with Premiere Pro, but will probably use it for some part of the restoration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
For MPEG-2 only, the Hauppauge would serve you well. One of the new guides in October .... strike that.

THREE new guides in October will be helpful to you, in some way. One is for legacy PVR Hauppauge WinTV cards, and the other two are for ATI 600 MPEG capturing and AVI capturing via VirtualDub. That's the plan, anyway.
Looking forward to the new guides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
I'd say the TBC-1000 is worth it. If I had funds, I'd buy several myself, test them, add a power cord, and easily be able to sell it for double my investment time. ($200 apiece, probably!) But I have to pass on that for now, other things need doing, higher priority than flipping gear. There's a chance I'd buy duds, but it's really hard to kill a TBC from DataVideo. It's a plain metal box with no controls, and the TBC-1000 could be tossed by a tornado and likely still survive. Something to consider.
Well, I just might purchase 1 of them just to see if anything happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
Premiere CS3 and CS4 are proving themselves to be quite decent at restoration filter, color-wise. I may drop VirtualDub Colormill moving forward, and focus more on using CS4. I just did a project purely in Premiere, and preferred it over the somewhat-unstable Colormill GUI. In years past, this really was a weak area for Premiere.
I also have Photoshop CS5, but that's a little redundant for this kind of use and I only fool around with it every once in a while, not really any kind of "experienced user" as compared with others. But it's fun to use, clean up photos, etc. For color, I was a small fan of using TMPGenc for some things, as it had some nice color contols and was a convenient program to use. Well, it apparently seems that the ATI 600 is the way to go, so I just bought it.
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  #11  
09-27-2010, 05:19 PM
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Also admin, can you check your pm box?
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09-27-2010, 05:33 PM
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PM checked, replied.

I still find uses for TMPGEnc. The various filters for noise and sharpness, etc -- no other editor seems to have an identical filter. For example, sure, there are many NR filters out there, but sometimes the TMPGEnc version just functions differently enough to be better than the others.

It's almost hard to believe I've been using it for almost 10 years now. It's easily the oldest still-in-use tool in my arsenal.

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09-27-2010, 05:57 PM
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Most of my filtering though is used through Avisynth, as it is amazingly powerful and there are many customizable tools/plugins/filters for it. If you haven't heard of it or used it, I'd suggest taking a peek at it over at the doom9 forums. I'm a particular fan of the MVDegrain function, among others.
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09-27-2010, 06:06 PM
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Who hasn't heard of Avisynth and filters video!?

You should share some of your Avisynth filter work sometime. Show some examples of what you're getting accomplished, including both the scripts and the before/after samples (maybe even attach the exact version plugins you're using).

It's a great little app. Maybe not as powerful as the uber-fans would have you believe, but still quite decent at a number of tasks. It's unsurpassed at several operations, such as deinterlacing.

My biggest issue with Avisynth is the scripting. Surely some of the most common filters could have been bundled into a good GUI that plugins into an encoder? Then again, that's what you get for free, I guess. It reminds me of logging into SSH root on the server, typing DOS commands, or writing PHP and CSS. Not fun at all. Video is so visual that I feel the life getting sucked out of me by having to interact with it in such a non-visual way.

I wish more people would share their exact plugin files, as well as their scripting. I need to get better about that, too.

VirtualDub, TMPGEnc and Premiere do meet most of my needs, however.

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  #15  
09-27-2010, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Who hasn't heard of Avisynth and filters video!?
Well, I wrote that in case there's a blue moon tonight

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
You should share some of your Avisynth filter work sometime. Show some examples of what you're getting accomplished, including both the scripts and the before/after samples (maybe even attach the exact version plugins you're using).

I wish more people would share their exact plugin files, as well as their scripting. I need to get better about that, too.
Sure. Although I'm no mastermind a la Didee. Most of my work began with doing lite/small filtering for ripping DVD's on to my harddrive, but there are other things/more difficult work that I've done, such as many kinds of anime DVD's (I enjoy these, both for the content and because anime DVD's have notorious image and interlacing problems, and I like the challenge). When my ATI 600 arrives, I'll be able to post some pictures of what I'm able to do, if anything. When that happens, I'll also post some before/after's of work on other things I've done.
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09-27-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshiver View Post
Most of my work began with doing lite/small filtering for ripping DVD's on to my harddrive, but there are other things/more difficult work that I've done, such as many kinds of anime DVD's (I enjoy these, both for the content and because anime DVD's have notorious image and interlacing problems, and I like the challenge). When my ATI 600 arrives, I'll be able to post some pictures of what I'm able to do, if anything. When that happens, I'll also post some before/after's of work on other things I've done.
I would think that light and small filtering would be more beneficial to others, anyway. One of my gripes about Avisynth documentation has always been that it shows examples that nobody else really deals with -- it's always some odd tracking noise, or strange color problem, ghosting error, etc. Almost never do you see a good basic filter set that shows how to tweak out 3-4 common issues that a person would likely use on 20+ tapes.

That kind of info would be good to have here. I need to share some of mine, too.

I rely on hardware a lot, and can wipe out most remaining problem in VirtualDub or Premiere, but it's good to go over some Avisynth for those common errors that aren't as easily fixed by hardware, Vdub or an NLE. Or maybe even some errors that could be fixed by those methods, but I know not everybody can have $KKK worth of hardware and software in their home or office. That makes Avisynth a nice alternative. All it needs are docs, samples and examples that regular people can relate to.

Please do share!

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  #17  
10-06-2010, 10:39 PM
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Bleh, I've never had this kind of trouble with Amazon before. (On buying the ATI 600) The first seller I bought from still hasn't shipped the damn thing, and I placed that order on September 27. I've e-mailed him twice and just decided to file a claim and return the item if he ever does ship it. The next time I bought it from an actual company, and 4 days after I "bought" it, they send me an e-mail telling me due to an Inventory Error, the item is actually not in stock. So I got a refund. So after waiting about 2 weeks with all this mess, I was a little fed up and just decided to buy the ATI 750 right from Amazon themselves, and put it on 2 day air shipping. It'll arrive tomorrow, thankfully. The 750 was only $54 shipping included, so not much of a price jump. All the other ATI 600's on Amazon are either $85 or $200, so I didn't feel that those prices were actually fair. Anywho, after I get it tomorrow, I'll make the follow up posts with some Avisynth scripts and some results of some of my captures.
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  #18  
10-07-2010, 12:26 AM
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kpmedia kpmedia is offline
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It gets bad around this time of year, October-January, ordering anything online -- referring to "oops, it's out of stock, sorry" type issues.

I'm not entirely clear on the functionality/software of the ATI 750. ATI made some changes after the 600.
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  #19  
10-07-2010, 03:15 PM
Nightshiver Nightshiver is offline
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This is a little depressing It just came in and I got everything set up pretty quickly. But, using the software that came with it, (Arcsoft Total Media 3.5), the S-Video source is TERRIBLE. I couldn't believe how bad the video was. When I hook it up to my regular Home Theater, the quality is perfect, but when viewing and even capturing with their included software, it looks like utter junk. I'm going to try now with VirtualDub and see if I can't get better results. If not, I think I'll have to return this as well I'm hoping that it's just the software and not the actual S-Video connection that's bad on the ATI 750.

EDIT: Damn, it's no better in VDub either.

EDIT EDIT: Decided to return it. Not going to deal with this. I'm just going to buy an actual capture card. Probably going to be a Hauppauge PVR 150.

Last edited by Nightshiver; 10-07-2010 at 03:54 PM.
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  #20  
10-07-2010, 04:18 PM
Nightshiver Nightshiver is offline
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Actually, it might be the PVR-350, not the 150. If you have any other suggestions for PCI or PCIe capture cards, I'd love to hear those as well.

Last edited by Nightshiver; 10-07-2010 at 04:30 PM.
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