How far off am I?

[jt_retro]

Hey All,

I'm an electronics enthusiast. Admittedly, I buy stuff just to play around with, not necessarily because it's the best tool for the job. This question is asked in the spirt of experimentation, rather than getting it right first time

However (and please keep the above self-admission in mind), I have some very precious VHS (PAL) tapes that I'd like to digitise and preserve for archival purposes (to pass down to the next generation, as a sort of family time capsule)

I have (on order):
1) Panasonic NV-HS930 SVHS with TBC
2) AVT-8710 TBC
3) Sony DSR-11 DV/DVCam tape deck
4) A BlueRay burner
5) A Mac laptop

Using the above equipment, my through process is to save my VHS to DV tape (via the TBC), and then transfer the raw DV to my computer (using Firewire). I would then burn this raw DV to BlueRay (just save the file), and then store the DV tape and the BlueRay disc for archiving.

I am fully aware that DV is a lossy codec, and that there are better, uncompressed means to transfer the VHS to the computer. However, given that I will be using DV-PAL (which uses 4:2:0 colour sub-sampling), and that I don't really intend to edit the video beyond anything the TBC initially did, how "far off" am I from a high quality transfer?

Is my plan to use DV doomed to fail and will produce a crappy end-product? I'm open minded to something better, but I currently don't have a desktop PC for a nice capture card (although based on your opinions on my DV plan, I may be tempted to get one).

I do have a £20 USB capture device, but I feel that's probably worse than my DV idea.

And as a semi-side topic, how does DV-NTCS with 4:1:1 compare with DV-PAL with 4:2:0 with respect to VHS transfers? I saw a table from lordsmurf which states that DV-PAL is "transparent" which I assume means that VHS-PAL -> DV-PAL works better than an equivalent VHS-NTSC -> DV-NTSC ?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

Jonny

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

I am fully aware that DV is a lossy codec, and that there are better, uncompressed means to transfer the VHS to the computer. However, given that I will be using DV-PAL (which uses 4:2:0 colour sub-sampling), and that I don't really intend to edit the video beyond anything the TBC initially did, how "far off" am I from a high quality transfer?

You're not very far off, but you're along way from the highest quality/. Many people spend more time justifying mediocre and second-rate results than actually doing the work to get it right. However, if your choice as you put it is not getting it right the first time but it's OK with you, then you have already justified it for yourself. What else can one say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

Is my plan to use DV doomed to fail and will produce a crappy end-product? I'm open minded to something better, but I currently don't have a desktop PC for a nice capture card (although based on your opinions on my DV plan, I may be tempted to get one).

You've answered your own question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

I do have a £20 USB capture device, but I feel that's probably worse than my DV idea.

That's correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

And as a semi-side topic, how does DV-NTCS with 4:1:1 compare with DV-PAL with 4:2:0 with respect to VHS transfers? I saw a table from lordsmurf which states that DV-PAL is "transparent" which I assume means that VHS-PAL -> DV-PAL works better than an equivalent VHS-NTSC -> DV-NTSC ?

It makes little difference between 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 for PAL, but it's 50% loss of color resolution with NTSC. That's not the major problem. The biggest problems are (a) whether PAL or NTSC, VHS to PAL isn't wholly transparent -- it fries colors, blows out highlights, and looks etched-in-plastic. And (b) DV compression artifacts aren't pretty, whether PAL or not, and added artifacts from VHS noise look worse and are tougher to fix with DV. DV is PC-only playback and not designed as a restoration format, so consider the further losses you'll entail when encoding lossy DV to a second-generation lossy final codec for more universal playback formats.

Capture is only the first step. If you feel you're no worse off with chroma loss, plastic effects, and data loss at the very start, it's up to you to convince later generations why they should live with it, but remember that at this stage they have no choice.

There's nothing unusual concerning what you want to do. It's a typical technique, with typical results. It's just not the best way. With some care and patience, you should be able o improve the results with some restoration and repair work -- which you'd have to do anyway, whether you capture to lossless media or not. Lossless is easier and cleaner. But you already know that.

[jt_retro]

Thanks for your helpful reply

Quote:

You've answered your own question.

Still not sure if it's doomed to fail. That's probably a bit strong, and more closer to "I can do better".

Quote:

It makes little difference between 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 for PAL, but it's 50% loss of color resolution with NTSC. That's not the major problem. The biggest problems are (a) whether PAL or NTSC, VHS to PAL isn't wholly transparent -- it fries colors, blows out highlights, and looks etched-in-plastic. And (b) DV compression artifacts aren't pretty, whether PAL or not, and added artifacts from VHS noise look worse and are tougher to fix with DV. DV is PC-only playback and not designed as a restoration format, so consider the further losses you'll entail when encoding lossy DV to a second-generation lossy final codec for more universal playback formats.

Yeah, that doesn't sound great.


Given my lack of desktop PC, do you recommend any USB devices that can capture lossless without dropping frames? How does the Hauppauge 610 fair? I can't seem to get it in Europe easily though, but will consider it based on opinions here.

Also, is this the same as the 610 above? https://www.amazon.co.uk/HAUPPAUGE-0...=Hauppauge+usb

Thanks!

[sanlyn]

I don't mean to be the death knell here. Your methods will get good results at least, thanks to the quality player that you mention. A laptop or Mac will be a drawback if you want to make improvements over the original DV encodes, especially since Mac left video hobbyists behind some years back and has nothing faintly approaching the versatility of software available for Windows. Still, with carefully made originals you could always find a way later to make more improvements from your archives.

[jt_retro]

I'd be open to the idea of installing Windows on my laptop, I guess it's a USB device that I'd love to hear about.

I'm also still keen to hear opinions on how well a VHS(PAL) -> DV(PAL) transfer would be in the grand scheme of things, as this is a very subjective topic. I'm not ignoring or disagreeing with you sanlyn, would just love to hear from others also

Thanks

[jt_retro]

removed (created new thread)

[jt_retro]

I've purchased a HAUPPAUGE 01341 USB Live-2. Hopefully this gives a high quality transfer

Thanks

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

I'm also still keen to hear opinions on how well a VHS(PAL) -> DV(PAL) transfer would be in the grand scheme of things, as this is a very subjective topic. I'm not ignoring or disagreeing with you sanlyn, would just love to hear from others also

You won't find much love for it here.

There are hundreds of threads on VideoHelp where people have debated the other side of the issue. Here is a recent one.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt_retro

I've purchased a HAUPPAUGE 01341 USB Live-2. Hopefully this gives a high quality transfer

It will allow losslesly compressed captures using VirtualDub and a few other capture apps for Windows.