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  #1  
01-16-2012, 07:25 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quick question.

How is video stored on Hi8? Composite or chroma and luma stored separately? My parents have Hi8 Sony Camcorder with no S-Video out. They want me to digitize some of their stuff. If chroma and luma stored separately, should I be better off buying a Hi8 player with S-Video out? Any recommendations? Thanks.

--Leonid
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  #2  
01-16-2012, 08:25 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Its stored separate. No S-video out sounds like its one of the last Hi-8 camcorders Sony made (likely the CCD-TRV138 or 338). They eliminated the S-Video port to cut costs! (its the only change from the previous year's model) Finding a slightly older Sony camcorder with S-Video is recommended, just make sure it has the built in TBC and DNR circuit (check the manuals on Sony's site). Almost all Hi-8 Sony Handycams from 1998 to 2006 have it. Another option is to find a Digital 8 camcorder that has analog Hi-8 playback, but once again, check the manual as Sony didn't offer this feature on their low end Digital 8 camcorders.

I don't know if you are in the US or not, but resale values for 8mm equipment is pretty high here, so it might not be easy to find a cheap unit.
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  #3  
01-16-2012, 09:15 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Its stored separate. No S-video out sounds like its one of the last Hi-8 camcorders Sony made (likely the CCD-TRV138 or 338). They eliminated the S-Video port to cut costs! (its the only change from the previous year's model) Finding a slightly older Sony camcorder with S-Video is recommended, just make sure it has the built in TBC and DNR circuit (check the manuals on Sony's site). Almost all Hi-8 Sony Handycams from 1998 to 2006 have it. Another option is to find a Digital 8 camcorder that has analog Hi-8 playback, but once again, check the manual as Sony didn't offer this feature on their low end Digital 8 camcorders.

I don't know if you are in the US or not, but resale values for 8mm equipment is pretty high here, so it might not be easy to find a cheap unit.
I'm in US. That's interesting. I purchased this camera for my parents in around 1994-95. Not later than 1996. So then basically I want to be looking for for the devices with S-Video out. I actually would prefer no DNR or even TBC. The reason is I wouldn't want middleman to do analog->digital->analog between analog outputs and the capture card.

What about these devices?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-EVO-950...ht_2451wt_1207

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Sony-Handyca....m14#prodDescr

There's also this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-ES-EV-S...ht_3593wt_1207

But it says digital 3d comb filter. Does it mean it takes composite and runs it through 3d comb filter? I would actually prefer to take S-Video direct and let capture card do all the work.

Thank you.

--Leonid
--Leonid
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  #4  
01-16-2012, 10:51 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Its kinda odd that a 1995-96 model wouldn't have S-Video output, typically all the Hi-8 models had it, while standard Video-8 models just had composite. I don't know if Sony started it that far back, but is the camera labelled Hi8"XR"? If so, the tapes are best played on another "XR" camcorder to get the full quality of the recording. XR was a format extension (higher quality video) Sony implemented on their Video-8/Hi-8 camcorders from 1995ish to 1998.

Check this one out. I personally own a CCD-TRV65, I can vouch that its a reliable model, its also better built then the later models (loads from top, no flimsy feeling tape tray). It has XR, stereo audio playback, S-video, TBC/DNR and if you ever want to use it as a camcorder, its excellent at that too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290658452122

$200 is a bit high for a bare bones Hi-8 camcorder, you can likely find one for $100-150 if you a patient. Serach for "Sony CCD-TRV" on ebay to see all the different models. I wouldn't worry too much about the camera's DNR and TBC causing image quality problems, the built in system does a great job. The DNR and TBC can also be individually toggled on and off on the camcorders.

I wouldn't bother with a standalone deck. The camcorders and Sony's later "Video Walkman" players (both share the same transport and playback electronics) are much newer and more advanced the any standalone deck was. I wouldn't ever bother looking at other makes in the 8mm field, Sony made the best camcorders/players bar none.
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  #5  
01-16-2012, 11:16 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I'll call my parents tomorrow and find out the exact model number. I will let you know. Thanks for the help.
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  #6  
01-17-2012, 02:35 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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To be completely honest, the higher-grade Sony Hi8 cameras are so good that s-video doesn't matter very much. Even a composite signal is going to capture beautifully -- assuming you have quality capturing hardware, of course. And then you want to convert Video8 on a Hi8 camera, as the Video8 cameras are craptastic for playback quality.

Additionally, the color quality of Video8 and Hi8 was so superior to VHS that 8mm-based tapes are rather easy to convert to DVD or other digital formats (NR notwithstanding). To be specific, compared to VHS/S-VHS, the Video/Hi8 formats:
  • Have been black level
  • Have virtually zero chroma noise
  • Have virtually zero color bleeding aka chroma/color offset
  • Have very rich colors, without being falsely saturated or saturated due to chroma problems
Video8 and Hi do still suffer from grain (sometimes worse than VHS/S-VHS) and comparable consumer tape resolutions.

This is something I wish we'd have known before shooting 20 years of family home movies to VHS, VHS-C and S-VHS-C !!!

I often find myself jealous of the quality of family videos shot by customers. Ours don't look anywhere near as good.
Betamax and Sony antics in general turned us off all Sony products for probably 25 years.

If you have a CCD-TRV138 or 338, use it -- it's gorgeous quality.

Capture to lossless AVI with good hardware, process for noise in VirtualDub and/or Avisynth, and then encode to 2-pass VBR for DVD-Video or BDAV/BDMV (Blu-ray), at higher bitrates. The video quality is simply stunning, comparable to anything pushed out of DV cameras -- especially the budget grade DV cameras.

Even the tapes take up less space.

Too bad I can't email myself back in the 1980s. This is one of the few missteps I took with video, and it's just because I didn't know any better at the time.

I think $200 for a Hi8 camera is fair, if it's in good condition. I see a lot of abused Video8 and Hi8 cameras, which have run out of alignment, making the playback or recording of tape impossible. The camera I use currently is a TRV-138, and it cost me about $250 in trade (exchanged some services) back in 2007. I had a hard time finding a good copy for under $500. I came across a number of lousy ones. This happened to be from a studio user, and it was the backup with low hours -- I was lucky. He used it as a student for B-roll, then decided video wasn't his cup of tea.

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  #7  
01-17-2012, 08:40 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I think $200 for a Hi8 camera is fair, if it's in good condition. I see a lot of abused Video8 and Hi8 cameras, which have run out of alignment, making the playback or recording of tape impossible. The camera I use currently is a TRV-138, and it cost me about $250 in trade (exchanged some services) back in 2007. I had a hard time finding a good copy for under $500. I came across a number of lousy ones. This happened to be from a studio user, and it was the backup with low hours -- I was lucky. He used it as a student for B-roll, then decided video wasn't his cup of tea.
Hmm... I know someone who fixes Sony HandyCams and flips them on ebay. Based on what I've seen the units suffer from two problems.

1. The tape reels sometimes get stuck. The preferred fix in the field for this is to whack the tape compartment camcorder with the palm of your hand to loosen them up. This repair also works on Sony MiniDV camcorders.

2. Loose pinch roller: This problem is surprisingly common. The retainer for the rubber pinch roller falls out. The field fix is to use a tube from a Bic pin to replace the missing insert. The proper repair is a $27 pinch roller assembly.

Just keep in mind that the TRV-138 only has mono audio out. A majority of Sony's Hi-8 camcorders recorded in stereo. In hindsight I was lucky to pick up a Sony DCR-TRV840 Digital 8 camcorder (with analog playback) for cheap two weeks ago. It was in great shape, hardly used. My only nitpick is that the tape transport is really loud when recording, a common complaint with D8 camcorders (the video drum runs 2.5X faster then Hi-8). I wish I had more Hi-8 tapes to transfer. Of all the tapes I did, those came out the best. Aside from the minor noise issues 8mm suffers from, the final DVDs look great.
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  #8  
01-17-2012, 09:38 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Capture to lossless AVI with good hardware, process for noise in VirtualDub and/or Avisynth, and then encode to 2-pass VBR for DVD-Video or BDAV/BDMV (Blu-ray), at higher bitrates. The video quality is simply stunning, comparable to anything pushed out of DV cameras -- especially the budget grade DV cameras.
For now my plan is to be capturing into Huffyuv AVI and store it on external hard drives (with back up copy of course). Later I will see whether to go for DVD or Blu-Ray or both. By the way, as far as DVD, I never go for 2-pass VBR. I use TMPGEnc with CQ at 100%. As for Blu-Ray format, I have never done it. When I get to it, no worries I will be asking questions as I am not familiar with codecs Blu-Ray uses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Its kinda odd that a 1995-96 model wouldn't have S-Video output, typically all the Hi-8 models had it, while standard Video-8 models just had composite. I don't know if Sony started it that far back, but is the camera labelled Hi8"XR"? If so, the tapes are best played on another "XR" camcorder to get the full quality of the recording. XR was a format extension (higher quality video) Sony implemented on their Video-8/Hi-8 camcorders from 1995ish to 1998.

Hello! I just called my parents. This is what they told me.
Sony CCD-TR93 Video Timer Recorder 27718.

In the manual they say it is: Video Camera Recorder 8.

The manual was printed in 1995.

So I guess it is not XR. All the Hi8 cassettes they want me to digitize were recorded on that camera. I already digitized 3 of such cassettes, but I guess the way I did them was not optimal. So basically you suggest I go for XR and rerecord them and record the new ones with S-Video out. Note, that I only need playback functionality with S-Video out. I am not going to be shooting any video. Given that, does http://www.ebay.com/itm/290658452122 still hold true? Thanks a lot.

--Leonid
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  #9  
01-17-2012, 09:56 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The CCD-TR93 is a standard Video-8 camcorder, that would explain the lack of S-Video out. It does have stereo audio however, so seek out a model with that (usually Hi-8). Someone snapped up that CCD-TRV65, it was a pretty good deal. Just look for Sony Hi-8 camcorders with stereo audio out.
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  #10  
01-17-2012, 10:09 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
The CCD-TR93 is a standard Video-8 camcorder, that would explain the lack of S-Video out. It does have stereo audio however, so seek out a model with that (usually Hi-8). Someone snapped up that CCD-TRV65, it was a pretty good deal. Just look for Sony Hi-8 camcorders with stereo audio out.
By the way, what about tracking? Do all of these camcorder have automatic tracking adjustment? I am asking because the cassettes were recorded on one camcorder but will be played back on the other.

--Leonid
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  #11  
01-17-2012, 10:31 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The 8mm format uses an automatic tracking system. As long as the recording camcorder wasn't completely out of alignment, the tape should play without any issues.
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  #12  
01-18-2012, 11:28 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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So should I be looking for just CCD-TRV65 model? Also some of these models are labeled as XR and some others are not labeled as XR?

Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Handyca...item2318b705c6

vs this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-CCD-TRV...item4ab2efd2de
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  #13  
01-18-2012, 11:58 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Its all the same model. Both of those are fine. Do a search for "Sony CCD-TRV Hi-8", that should bring up most of the preferred Sony models. From what I can see, all Hi-8 models from CCD-TRV65 to CCD-TRV99 have stereo audio out. The CCD-TRV100/300 series is hit or miss. Before bidding, verify that the camcorder supports stereo playback in the manual (Sony is very good about posting manuals for older products).
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  #14  
01-19-2012, 12:13 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Actually, it looks like only TRV65 has stereo and S-Video out. TRV98 and TRV67 are mono and composite. I put my eyes on these 2 because they don't come from the dealer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150738503110...84.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110810443091...84.m1438.l2649

This seems to come from a dealer and you've already described the potential problems.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-CCD-TRV...item4ab2efd2de

So basically you're saying you can turn off DNR and TBC if needed? Can you turn DNR off while leaving TBC on? Thanks.

--Leonid
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  #15  
01-19-2012, 02:54 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The TBC and DNR can be switched on/off independently. Also check out the CCD-TRV66, it has stereo audio out. Digital 8 models with analog tape playback also feature stereo audio out, but the prices are usually much higher.
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  #16  
01-19-2012, 06:41 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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There are a few of TRV66 on ebay. Is there a difference between TRV65 and TRV66?
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  #17  
01-19-2012, 06:52 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The 66 is a model year newer and comes with a built in video light.
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  #18  
01-20-2012, 12:09 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Is the built in video light for shooting in the dark? Kind of like flash light for cameras?

By the way, this is what it says on the CCD-TRV65 menu:
When video tape recorded by this "XR" camcorder is played back by a conventional 8/Hi8 camcorder or when video tape recorded by a conventional 8/Hi8 camcorder is played back by this "XR" camcorder, the playback picture quality is in the normal quality of the 8/Hi8 camcorder.

Since all the Hi8 tapes I'm going to be digitizing were recorded by conventional non-XR Sony CCD-TR93, the only benefit I will potentially get by playing back on CCD-TRV65 is S-Video out, correct?
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  #19  
01-20-2012, 02:46 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
Since all the Hi8 tapes I'm going to be digitizing were recorded by conventional non-XR Sony CCD-TR93, the only benefit I will potentially get by playing back on CCD-TRV65 is S-Video out, correct?
That is correct. You also get an optional TBC and DNR circuit if your videos require it.
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  #20  
01-20-2012, 03:04 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
That is correct. You also get an optional TBC and DNR circuit if your videos require it.
I may use TBC. As for DNR - to me it's a big no no because I prefer to use noise reduction in AVISynth.

By the way, this is a bit off this particular topic. But I still would like to point out as I did in another post that TBC is a middle man. It digitizes the video and then converts it back to analog. But if video goes through extra analog->digital->analog, doesn't it get degraded?

--Leonid
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