Quantcast Best camera for Video8 tape playback? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
04-25-2012, 03:49 PM
david151 david151 is offline
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I have a load of videos (mainly long play) that were recorder on an old Sony Handycam video 8 camcorder (model CCD-FX200E) Obviously these are the old Video8 format so are not even Hi8, or Digital8. Unfortunately I no longer have the original camera that recorded these so am looking for something that will play these back to give me the best playback quality possible for feeding into my ATI all in wonder capture card. From my research I gather it is not a wise choice looking for a video8 camera to do this as playback quality tends to lack quality, therefore I am looking for a suitable Hi8 or Digital8 machine for this task.

From other posts on this forum I gather the best Hi8 camera for the job would be one of the following:

CCD-TRV62
CCD-TRV65
CCD-TRV66
CCD-TRV70
CCD-TRV72
CCD-TRV82
CCD-TRV85
CCD-TRV87
CCD-TRV99
CCD-TRV101
CCD-TRV615

My other option would be to get a Digital8 machine that will play my tapes. From another forum I found this list:

All Sony Digital 8 PAL (UK system) models. Models marked * will play old 8mm analogue PAL recordings made in Standard 8, HI8, in both (SP) and (LP) modes. All models marked * have switchable timebase correction.

DCR-TR7000E *
DCR-TR7100E *
DCR-TR8000E *
DCR-TR8100E *
DCR-TRV110E *
DCR-TRV120E *
DCR-TRV125E *
DCR-TRV130E
DCR-TRV140E
DCR-TRV145E
DCR-TRV147E
DCR-TRV210E *
DCR-TRV230E *
DCR-TRV235E *
DCR-TRV238E *
DCR-TRV239E *
DCR-TRV240E *
DCR-TRV241E *
DCR-TRV245E
DCR-TRV250E
DCR-TRV255E
DCR-TRV265E
DCR-TRV270E
DCR-TRV285E
DCR-TRV310E *
DCR-TRV320E *
DCR-TRV325E *
DCR-TRV330E *
DCR-TRV340E *
DCR-TRV341E *
DCR-TRV345E *
DCR-TRV355E *
DCR-TRV356E *
DCR-TRV410E *
DCR-TRV420E *
DCR-TRV430E *
DCR-TRV460E *
DCR-TRV461E *
DCR-TRV480E *
DCR-TRV510E *
DCR-TRV520E *
DCR-TRV525E *
DCR-TRV530E *
DCR-TRV620E *
DCR-TRV720E *
DCR-TRV725E *
DCR-TRV730E *
DCR-TRV738E *
DCR-TRV740E *
DCR-TRV820E *
DCR-TRV828E *
DCR-TRV830E *

Obviously I was attracted to the cameras on this list as they have the benefit of being more modern and playing more formats, however when looking at the instruction manual most of them say that the TBC / DNR is only avialable "When you play back tapes recorded in the Hi8/standard 8 system only" Does this mean the DNR / TBC is not available for my standard Video8 tapes? If this is not the case I don't think I would be interested in these models as I definitely want TBC and DNR.

I am not really bothered about the digital converters in these cameras to firewire as I just want to go uncompressed into my All In Wonder Card to preserve maximum quality so definitely want something with TBC, DNR and S video with preferably stereo sound output (since I heard some camera models only have mono)

What are peoples view on the best camera for my requirements that was available for the European market (as I am in the UK)

Thanks
Dave
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  #2  
04-25-2012, 03:51 PM
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"standard 8" should mean the same thing as Video8.

Outside of that clarification, it really looks like you have this topic under control -- know what to get, what to look for, etc.
Not sure if I can add anything.
Maybe NJRoadfan will see this, and be able to add more for you.

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  #3  
04-25-2012, 07:59 PM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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i agree standard 8 = Video8
it probably means the TBC/DNR doesn't work with Digital8

i have a CCD-TRV101 and it does a superb job on Video8 tapes
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04-26-2012, 04:08 AM
david151 david151 is offline
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Quote:
it probably means the TBC/DNR doesn't work with Digital8
That seems strange that it would work with older formats but would not work with the newer technology.

On another note I presume these TBC are only line TBC? Would I also need a seperate full frame TBC like the Datavideo TBC-1000?
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04-26-2012, 04:50 AM
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It's actually not strange at all.

Time base correction is an analog process used to compensate for analog errors. When the timing is off, you get horizontal jitter (wiggling and left/-right vibration of the image) between the lines of video. A TBC takes the lines of video, and timing is recalculated and restored, as measured against a constant, thus restoring the proper image. And there's several types of constants, which helps differentiate the specific type of TBC that it is.

TBCs often perform secondary functions, such as cleaning up the quality of the chroma (and alignment of chroma and luma), as well as providing constant sync and signal. All of this is needed for proper digital conversion. Otherwise you'll end up for dropped frames, out-of-sync audio, and various types of encoding artifacts. It's very easy to make a DVD look worse than the already-cruddy VHS tape (or other analog source).

Digital8 is DV data on an 8mm tape. DV has no lines of video -- everything is stored as pixels.

8mm (Video8/Hi8) doesn't really have as many image quality problems as VHS does. It actually has unique issues of its own, related to data paths (alignment and/or "tracking"). More severe ones, in fact.

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  #6  
04-26-2012, 05:16 AM
david151 david151 is offline
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Ok thanks for that explanation, however would you still recommend an external TBC (or DVD recorder as passthrough such as Panasonic ES10 or Philips DVDR3475) when playing my video8 tapes from one of these cameras? Or are the TBC on these cameras sufficient?
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  #7  
04-26-2012, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david151 View Post
however would you still recommend an external TBC (or DVD recorder as passthrough such as Panasonic ES10 or Philips DVDR3475) when playing my video8 tapes from one of these cameras?
Yes.

Quote:
Or are the TBC on these cameras sufficient?
No.

The TBC inside the camera is for cleaning up the image quality -- not maintaining a constant quality signal. There's a difference between signal clean-up and image clean-up. Internal TBCs only handle image quality. External TBCs handle the signal quality. And since digital conversion requires a constant clean signal (or else all hell breaks loose), you need to provide one.

The reason is because external TBCs also contain frame synchronizers.

Some DVD recorders provide that functionality on pass-through. Most DVD recorders have some sort of frame sync on input, but performance varies quite a bit. (That's one reason so many DVD recorders make DVDs that look worse than the tapes.) Most of them do not pass stable analog signals etc on output; i.e., passthrough. The Panasonic ES10 is one of the few that does.

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  #8  
04-26-2012, 09:37 AM
david151 david151 is offline
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Thanks Lord Smurf for your reply. I have another thread going on videohelp regarding using the Panasonic WJ-AVE5 mixer as a TBC. From my research it seems this has a Digital Frame Synchronizer, but not really sure how this differs exactly to a TBC? One user says it is effective against macrovision and when used provides good quality captures, so I presume this is working in almost the same way as a full frame TBC, although I have no idea what the pros and cons are of using a device like this compared to a standard TBC? Any idea on how a Digital Frame synchroniser differs from a TBC in practise for quality of results? Please see the thread here:

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/345629-Digital-Frame-Synchronizer-v-TBC

Also do you have any particular preference for any of the models of camera I have listed above? I am leaning towards the DCR-TRV740E, but don't know if there is much difference between any of them in terms of playback quality. Since I will only be using the camera for playback I am not bothered about other features concerned with shooting. I just want the machine that will give me the best quality playback for use with my recently acquired ATI all in wonder card.

Does anyone have any particular preference in relation to the camera models mentioned? Are they almost all the same in terms of quality for playback? I was thinking of going for the DCR-TRV460E or the DCR-TRV461E but would like to hear other people's opinions before I commit to buy.
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  #9  
01-29-2017, 07:35 AM
mohammad84 mohammad84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david151 View Post

My other option would be to get a Digital8 machine that will play my tapes. From another forum I found this list:
Do any of the PAL cameras capable to play Secam Video8 tapes?
Is there a list of Sony's Secam based system HI8/Video8 cameras?
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  #10  
02-01-2017, 02:54 AM
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I'm not sure than Video8/Hi8 did SECAM. Wasn't it just PAL or NTSC?

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  #11  
02-01-2017, 09:42 AM
mohammad84 mohammad84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm not sure than Video8/Hi8 did SECAM. Wasn't it just PAL or NTSC?
I have a VHS copy of a Video8 tape. Since the VHS copy of that tape is SECAM, I thought the Video8 tape might be SECAM too. I like to capture the original tape because it might have a better quality than the copy, so I am looking for a proper camera. I wanted to make sure if Sony ever made Video8/Hi8 cameras for the Middle East market (because they made some players and combos for the Middle East). So if Video8 was just PAL or NTSC, so my tape is PAL then.
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  #12  
02-21-2017, 05:01 PM
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NOTE: All the following is referred to PAL model.

The issue start because I have a DCR-TR7100 and the camera never convinced me; when playing analog tape, the image quality is lower than a recent Hi8 camera, so I have notice that in the menu of Digital8 camera there are no TBC or DNR items.
After having read many manuals, I'we found that the following Digital 8 model seems not have TBC/DNR for playing Hi8/8mm analog tape. So these models are not suggestet for capturing analog Hi8/8mm tape.

DCR-TR7000E
DCR-TR7100E
DCR-TRV110E
DCR-TRV130E
DCR-TRV140E
DCR-TRV145E
DCR-TRV147E
DCR-TRV210E
DCR-TRV245E
DCR-TRV250E
DCR-TRV255E
DCR-TRV265E
DCR-TRV270E
DCR-TRV280E
DCR-TRV310E
DCR-TRV410E
DCR-TRV510E

There may be other model witout TBC/DNR, but the others in the list in the firs post marked with * should have the TBC/DNR. Before buy a Digital 8 camera for analog capture, check the manual on internet.
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  #13  
07-07-2019, 01:34 PM
ofesad ofesad is online now
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Hi people, sorry for bringing up and old post but it's totally related to this.

I am looking for some Digital8 player, but I get a little confused with the terminology used.

Digital8 is Standar 8, right? And Digital8 is Video8, correct? Or I am missing something?

I ask because it get's me confused to see similar words talking about what I presume is the same thing. Still I never used Digital8 before, so better to ask thank screw it up.

Regardin the players:

1) Can you play a digital8 tape (recorded on a PAL camera) in a NTSC camera? I guess it would play, but might have issues on video output for capturing, maybe?

2) These cameras support Svideo output? Or can I capture with WinDv over firewire?
For what I read on the TRV530 manual, it does both. However, I'd like to ear your opinions on what's best when dealing with Digital8.
I probably would use firewire, but svideo output it's the only option for connecting a TBC on it.

3) Here in argentina are 4 Sony Digital8 cameras for sale:
DCR - TVR108
DCR - TRV280
DCR - TRV310 (the cheapest)
DCR - TVR530 (5 times more expensive than the cheapest)

Wich one would you recommend?


Thank you all for your input.
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  #14  
07-07-2019, 02:15 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Digital8 is Standar 8, right? And Digital8 is Video8, correct? Or I am missing something?
No, Digital8 is digital DV-encoded video stored on 8mm cassettes. Video8 and Hi8 are the older analog variants that use the same cassette format. The tapes are interchangeable, e.g one could record e.g Digital8 on an old tape that says Video8 on it and vice versa, though the cassette tape materials improved over time, so the video data would not be as robust as on a newer Digital8 branded tape.

If the tapes you are planning to capture were recorded on a Digital8 camera (i.e in the Digital8 format) any Digital8 camcorder will give you the same quality as the video is digital.

Most, but not all Digital8 cameras can also play back the older analog Video8 and Hi8 format with great quality. I think it's mainly DCR-TRV1xx and the LDC-screen less equivialent but I don't know the model numbers, except the 110, that only play back Digital8.

I can't find the DCR-TRV108 anywhere, maybe you confused it with a CCD-TRV108 which is an older Hi8 camera? In this case it can not play Digital8 tapes. Any of the other ones should work fine if you only need digital8 playback. You will want to capture Digital8 via firewire. The video is already digital, it's just stored on a tape instead of a hard-drive, so when using a firewire connection you are simply copying it to the computer.

For Hi8/Video8 playback, either the DCR-TRV530 or the CCD-TRV108 (if that's what it is) would be the preferable options. The TRV280 only has composite output, and the 310 does as far as I know and noted earlier not have the TBC/DNR function.

I know PAL Digital8 cameras can play back NTSC tapes with both firewire and Analog (as NTSC 4.43 or PAL60) output. The manuals are a bit unclear, but it seems PAL Digital8 (but not analog Hi8 or Video8) on an NTSC camera would work, but only with firewire. Someone in the US could probably confirm.
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  #15  
07-07-2019, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
No, Digital8 is digital DV-encoded video stored on 8mm cassettes. Video8 and Hi8 are the older analog variants that use the same cassette format. The tapes are interchangeable, e.g one could record e.g Digital8 on an old tape that says Video8 on it and vice versa, though the cassette tape materials improved over time, so the video data would not be as robust as on a newer Digital8 branded tape.
Got it! Super clear!

So many 8's got me confused and here people sells cameras as "sony cameras" and makes no difference between one or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post

If the tapes you are planning to capture were recorded on a Digital8 camera (i.e in the Digital8 format) any Digital8 camcorder will give you the same quality as the video is digital.

Most, but not all Digital8 cameras can also play back the older analog Video8 and Hi8 format with great quality. I think it's mainly DCR-TRV1xx and the LDC-screen less equivialent but I don't know the model numbers, except the 110, that only play back Digital8.
A client mentioned he has some old sony tapes from a trip he made to Europe in the late 80's, also he mentioned it's Sony 8mm. So I guessed was Sony's Video8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post

I can't find the DCR-TRV108 anywhere, maybe you confused it with a CCD-TRV108 which is an older Hi8 camera? In this case it can not play Digital8 tapes. Any of the other ones should work fine if you only need digital8 playback. You will want to capture Digital8 via firewire. The video is already digital, it's just stored on a tape instead of a hard-drive, so when using a firewire connection you are simply copying it to the computer.
Correct!
My mistake I didn't pay attention to the exact model. It's the CCD-TRV108.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
For Hi8/Video8 playback, either the DCR-TRV530 or the CCD-TRV108 (if that's what it is) would be the preferable options. The TRV280 only has composite output, and the 310 does as far as I know and noted
Then I will try to get a better deal out of the TRV530, altought the seller is asking about 170usd. Quite a lot for me. Normally these are selling under 50usd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post

I know PAL Digital8 cameras can play back NTSC tapes with both firewire and Analog (as NTSC 4.43 or PAL60) output. I assume would PAL Digital8 (but not analog Hi8 or Video8) on NTSC works, but it's probably firewire-only.
Yeah and that's my fear: since here PAL it's the adopted norm, but most Sony's Digital8 cameras in the argentinian market are NTSC (I haven't seen a PAL yet). And I don't know if the client had a PAL or NTSC camera because was from a friend of his... Quite a dilemma.

Will be doing some hunting and see what I can get my hands on.
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  #16  
07-07-2019, 03:08 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
A client mentioned he has some old sony tapes from a trip he made to Europe in the late 80's, also he mentioned it's Sony 8mm. So I guessed was Sony's Video8.
If it was the late 80s it would be either Video8 or Hi8, Digital8 came out around 2000.

Quote:
Yeah and that's my fear: since here PAL it's the adopted norm, but most Sony's Digital8 cameras in the argentinian market are NTSC (I haven't seen a PAL yet).
Yeah for analog(video8/Hi8) PAL tapes you would need a PAL camera. Otherwise, if you need both digital and analog you could go for either the DCR-TRV530 for both, or alternatively either one of 310 or 280 for digital + the CCD-TRV108 for analog playback.
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  #17  
08-09-2019, 09:41 AM
ofesad ofesad is online now
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I was just browsing the local electronics for used gear and found a Hitachi VMH675LA camcoder for sale.

What called my attention was that it has a sticker claiming about having Digital TBC.



It has S-Video output. But sadly no firewire or usb.

Also, after checking the manual, all Hitachis VMH models are NTSC, but it has PAL convertion. According to the manual this is only for connecting to a PAL TV, so I don't know what could happen if I put a PAL Video8 tape.

Anyone had some experience with these? I couldn't find much information about'em.


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  #18  
08-09-2019, 10:03 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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I have a VM-D865LE, one of the Digital8 Hitachi cameras. It certainly has a TBC. It has pretty nice playback quality actually, doesn't give the border stain that the Sony ones do on PAL tapes, and also doesn't blue screen on bad signals. The luma is a clearer/less noisy than on the Sonys, but on the other hand there's more chroma noise.

One issue I found though is that the TBC seems to react a bit badly to some tapes, reacting with vertical jumping/jitter a bit like the JVC VHS decks can do.

I have a Hi8 Hitachi as well, but that one's dead, haven't looked into whether it's fixable.

I have no Idea about pal playback on NTSC cameras as I live in PAL land unfortunately. Let us know if you find out.
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  #19  
08-09-2019, 10:27 AM
ofesad ofesad is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I have a VM-D865LE, one of the Digital8 Hitachi cameras. It certainly has a TBC. It has pretty nice playback quality actually, doesn't give the border stain that the Sony ones do on PAL tapes, and also doesn't blue screen on bad signals. The luma is a clearer/less noisy than on the Sonys, but on the other hand there's more chroma noise.

One issue I found though is that the TBC seems to react a bit badly to some tapes, reacting with vertical jumping/jitter a bit like the JVC VHS decks can do.

I have a Hi8 Hitachi as well, but that one's dead, haven't looked into whether it's fixable.
Interasting. For the asking price (around 45usd) could be a nice deal.
It's complete with carrybag, battery, remote and charger. According to the owner: "it's in impeccable condition. it plays and records perfectly".

Will try to get a better deal and report back if I get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post

I have no Idea about pal playback on NTSC cameras as I live in PAL land unfortunately. Let us know if you find out.
Argentina technically it's a PAL Country (PAL-N) but mostly for VHS.
The 8mm it's one of the trickiest since people traveled and bought cameras in USA, so there is a lot of NTSC material.

Also the same happen'd with Sony handycam's. Sony Argentina imported the NTSC versions instead of the PAL. So when I browse for old electronics I have to check and double check if they are PAL or NTSC.

Not only that, but some gear is PAL-B or will not accept PAL-N signals. For example my Sony DSR-25, it works perfect with my Panasonics AG4700 but when I plug a PAL-N deck, it shows the picture in B&W.

I think I will have to buy a norm conversion system to avoid future headaches.
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  #20  
08-13-2019, 11:33 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
sticker claiming about having Digital TBC.
Always remember that "TBC" is a wide term, and can mean almost anything. Performance matters, not the claim/sticker. As I often joke, my toaster probably has a TBC, based on the loose definitions some companies use.

That said, most Hi8/D8 cameras do have some sort of mild line TBC.

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