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  #1  
08-22-2014, 07:08 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Okay this is a bit off topic as it's not involving VCR and the like.
But it might as well be towards them i guess, but it would be harder as it can't display a still clean image the same way.

Anyhow, what i want to do is calibrate my Capture Card towards a Device of choice, in my case this is Consoles, but it doesn't really matter. But as all Devices output a differently (though mostly very similar) it should be fairly similar procedure.

To do this, my idea was to bring up something that should be pure Black, and make it pretty much Black (with consideration to noise). And same thing to White.

But to do this, the best way would seem to be with using some sort of image that contains Black/White bars, the classical stuff on TV for example, colors are a bonus i guess.

But when it comes to this, i am guessing the YUV -> RGB starts interfering?
So instead of just guessing i thought it would be best to ask here.

Thanks
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  #2  
08-22-2014, 07:09 AM
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The capture card is still really just calibrating against the graphics card in the computer, and its monitor.

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  #3  
08-22-2014, 07:11 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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True, you need to calibrate your monitor as well.

Though wait, does calibration even change the colors value? like #FFFFFF = White etc?
I mean if it's White on a non-calibrated monitor (the code), it should be the same on a calibrated, and vice versa right?
Even though it might not look like White (or Red, Green etc).

And also you should just be able to calibrate it so it's within the "legal boundaries".

In my case i am using Component, and i can't even change colors in that mode on the card, so it's only Brightness and Contrast, so it should be fairly straightforward, compared to accurate colors.
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  #4  
08-22-2014, 01:15 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
Though wait, does calibration even change the colors value? like #FFFFFF = White etc? I mean if it's White on a non-calibrated monitor (the code), it should be the same on a calibrated, and vice versa right?
Even though it might not look like White (or Red, Green etc).
If the source color is RGB 255-255-255, it should look that way on a properly calibrated display. Anyway, "white" isn't always RGB255/ It can also be RGB 225, which still looks "white". How about RGB 32-32-32? That's a dark gray whose proper delineation between other dark colors depends on how well your gamma setup matches standards for the type of display you're trying to calibrate.

Not quite certain what you're getting at, though. Are you asking about monitor calibration, or about calibrating a graphics card to match an input signal during capture? Usually if you have a separate capture device it's output is displayed by your onboard graphics card. Is your capture card a separate graphics adapter, and you're using dual graphics cards hooked up to a single monitor? Most people begin by adjusting their monitor and graphics card together, using a common device such as a colorimeter or photometer with software that reads the probe's information and that measures the monitor's output. It's a multiple step process. Most people use monitor calibration kits of some kind to do it.

The first step in these calibration routines asks you to specify which color system you're calibrating for. For most of us PC users it's the sRGB standard. The desired color temperature is usually targeted at 6500K, gamma usually to 2.2 to 1.8 (many photogs use 1.8, others might use something else depending on the material they're working with). You also have to specify whether you're using LCD, CRT, etc., as different display devices have different gamma and luminance curves. There's enough material published about these subjects alone to keep you very busy and very confused for at least a couple of months. Most people let the meter and the software figure it out.

You are then asked to specify an output brightness value. Most monitors are factory set for excessive brightness, anywhere from 300 to 400 cd/m2 (candelas per square meter). The preferred range for video and graphics work is ~200 cd/m2. Try making this adjustment by eyeball alone, then measure the results with a photometer. Chances are 100 out of 100 that your eyeballs won't be correct.

Whether your monitor's input is component, HDMI, VGA, or whatnot, the end result depends on what the colorimeter measures and the adjustments made to correct discrepancies between what is displayed and what is supposed to be displayed. The step that follows the initial setup dialog is to mount the color probe onto your video screen and plug its cable into your computer. All other steps will have procedures whose results are monitored by the color probe. The first measured step is contrast adjustment. Calibration software will first display a black test panel to ascertain the limits of what your monitor thinks is "black". Next, it displays a white test panel that has known luma and chroma characteristics. You then are shown a meter of some kind, usually a left-right meter scale that requires you to adjust your monitor's contrast so that the meter's indicator is centered in the meter's panel.

Next you are shown the adjusted white panel and asked to adjust the monitor's brightness control until the meter's brightness reading equals the brightness level you specified earlier. You will shuttle back and forth a few times between the contrast/brightness dialogs to make fine adjustments, since brightness and contrast affect each other to some degree.

The next step is RGB color adjustment. This is first performed using the RGB adjustments on your monitor. If you don't have individual Red-Green-Blue controls but are instead limited to nonspecific settings like "Warm", "Cool", "Automatic", "Sports", "Natural", "Normal", etc., you're at a serious disadvantage and should get a better monitor. If you have super-duper image wreckers such as auto-black, auto-white, etc., turn them off. Usually the manual RGB step shows three horizontal meters stacked vertically, with a center mark that allows you to center an indicator for each of three chroma channels. Use the individual RGB monitor controls to center the indicators as best as you can. They will bounce side to side and twitch now and then as each color is adjusted, so you'll be shuttling back and forth for a while until you're satisfied that you can do little more on your own. If you don't have individual RGB controls, you must choose the generic picture "mode" setting that most closely matches up the three RGB indicators as close to a true 6500K color temperature as those settings can get. Understand, however, that by using those generic settings you can sometimes achieve a color temperature near 6500 but still have an image that looks too dim or too blue.

What the initial RGB step does is to correct built-in color imbalances that came with your monitor. This will at least help your monitor output an image that is closer to a correct color balance for the three primary colors, although the adjustment is for a single reference point (bright white).

The software will then go into an auto mode for several minutes, during which you sit and watch (or get coffee, etc), until the program tells you it's finished. During this auto step the software will adjust graphics card control settings to which you don't have access unless you have a more professional monitor with built-in software that allows you to fiddle with those adjustments. What you see is that the software displays many color patches in succession, takes a reading off each panel, and repeats the procedure 2 or 3 times for tweaking. The color panels will be primary colors (Red Green Blue), secondary colors (Cyan, Yellow, Magenta), and a series of intermediate colors such as Brown, orange, lavendar, teak, etc., and 5 to 10 shades of gray. Calibration softwares can display anywhere from 20 to 60 of these different patches, usually more than once. This procedure adjusts RGB and d-value (intensity, or what we like to call "saturation") for each of those hues across the RGB spectrum from IRE-0 to IRE-100.

At completion, the software creates an .icm monitor profile that adjusts the output of your graphics card more precisely to prescribed color, luminance, and gamma standards across the entire sRGB spectrum. You will usually be shown a graph of some sort that plots the results as a curve or other chart. You save that .icm profile as your system's default monitor profile.

Which applications actually use that profile to adjust your monitor's display? Few of them do. No media players do it, no browsers do it, nothing made by Microsoft does it, no budget NLE does it. Your "XCyber Deluxe Pro Intensity" bargain software certainly doesn't. But some apps will: Adobe Premiere Pro, After Effects, Vegas Pro, FCP, etc. Some media players can utilize custom color profiles created manually by MadVR (you will still need a good colorimeter to set up MadVR, but it's very effective). You can set up a few media player hue and brightness controls to get closer to ideal using your colorimeter and a test video of grayscale patches to read the results of your new settings. One media player that is impossiblet to adjust with any accuracy IMO is VLC Player. Windows Media Player image controls don't even work. So, for programs that don't hook into the custom .icm you must depend on the manual RGB settings you made earlier, which is better than nothing.

There are many variations of this scenario from those who make calibration kits. There are also outfits that test this equipment at: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm . One such test is an older one of the EyeOne Display2, very popular with pros and amateurs. The newer version works in a similar way. The review is at http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/...e_display2.htm .

A website that gets deeply into monitor and TV calibration, along with links to free and paid software, is the calibration forum at www.avsforum.com . You'll see more calibration threads interspersed through other forum areas. There are also links to free and paid calibration videos of test sequences.

A website that explains how colorimeters and HCFR software and other computer-based metering apps are used to calibrate TV and projection setups is at the CurtPalme site. There is an older calibration tutorial at http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457, and a newer version for newer hardware at http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322 . One thing I have against this website is that their sample "correction" photos still look like crap and have never been tweaked.

There's a popular website of free test patterns at http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ . Many use them, but they're extremely limited and won't get you where a colorimeter and formal calibration will. A few years ago I posted a report and graphics showing how I started with lagom test patterns and then tweaked it with Xrite's calibration kit and tested the results with HCFR software. http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2083260

Now, how does all this relate to setting up a "calibration" for capture? You've posed this question earlier and in other forums. The way the question is posed tells me that you're confused about what you are calibrating "to". My simplified answer to that question is that you can't "calibrate" to an analog tape as a calibration source. Analog tape changes color balance and levels so frequently that you would have to stop at every scene change and readjust the input signal. Understand, that if you have calibrated your monitor it has nothing to do with "correcting" the input signal. If the signal is whacked out you correct the incoming signal, not your calibrated monitor. If you correct your capture software for one scene in an analog source, and the next scene is a different game altogether, you have to stop and do it again. What most people do is set up proper levels and contrast and maybe saturation using VirtualDub's connection into your graphics card's image adjustments (which are limited, but good enough for most captures) or use something like GraphEdit to accomplish what amounts to the same thing. Both use some type of chart or histogram to monitor the results.

The idea is to correct for some of the worst-case scenes you might encounter during the tape's capture, then tweak later in software. With some tapes you might encounter a weirdo segment that needs to be recaptured with different settings. Often I use a SignVideo PA-100 proc amp with its built-in luma meter to monitor and set for valid luma levels and make other image adjustments. Those adjustments are in YUV. There are some cheap capture cards with color "adjustment" controls that can do a thorough job of corrupting color and often work in RGB, which is something you probably don't want during capture. They're no match for advanced controls in software.

Some people claim to use an NTSC or PAL color panel to set levels for an incoming tape. Fine. Your capture is set up for the color patch, but that tells you nothing about how your tape's content looks. Some retail tapes have that color patch imbedded in tape leader. The test panel was for the production shop and its automated gain and autocolor processes during mastering -- automated devices that tend to wreck histograms and which have no control over the way that tape plays through various players and capture devices. The tapes usually play with strange anomalies such as a blue color cast in the brights, a green color cast in midtones, and a red color cast in the darks, all at the same time. Trying to correct those problems during capture will take a lifetime and makes capturing more difficult than it should be.

Another problem that goes along with your question: if you don't have a handle on color theory and color correction using advanced software and tools designed for it, correcting an incoming capture or your capture card or monitor won't be any easier -- and there's no way to automate an incoming capture accurately. Commercial mastering shops use automation, too -- and you see the results every time you play a tape. Monitor calibration itself is not a simple procedure. For all practical purposes it's not possible to properly calibrate a PC monitor without special tools, because most monitors provide no means allowing you to do so.
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  #5  
08-22-2014, 03:28 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Why are you talking about tapes when he said his question is about capturing component from a game console, not from a VCR?

Here is a thread where I attempted to "calibrate" various capture devices to two different sources: a DVD player outputting test patterns, and a test pattern generator. The Proc Amp settings I used are shown in parentheses at the top of each screenshot. As you can see, even though color bars from one device "should" be standardized to color bars from another device, it just isn't so.

The best you might be able to do is calibrating each console output so that it looks the same as an emulator capture of the same screen. But that's assuming the emulator is truly accurate.
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  #6  
08-22-2014, 03:43 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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That's ridiculous. Why calibrate a game console? Games have notoriously crappy color and levels to begin with, and every game will look different. That's like recalibrating your tv for every tv show and movie that it displays. I'm talking about calibrating a tv or monitor to accurately display whatever is put into it. The capture software is reconfigured to correct the incoming signal, not the other way around.

You can't use colorbars to calibrate a display. Period. You start with grayscale patches, not colors.
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  #7  
08-23-2014, 12:56 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Okay it seems like i made a huge mess out of this.

Ignore the color thing, shouldn't really have said it as a bonus as it kinda got confusing.

What i pretty much want to do is calibrate to a Game Console as msgohan said.

and as sanlyn says, it seems that they do indeed look different.

Black in one game is "Dark Gray" in another. Probably as they all output differently, and it's not a "pure" as a PC where you simply get what it says "Black is Black etc", as you have Console->Output(non-digital)->Decode.

And just that seems to mess things up even more, as i can't really calibrate to a picture as it would be worthless.


Damn, well i can do like this, here is Video: https://www.sendspace.com/file/e6wa6b //Lagarith

Here i tried to make White(or at least what i thought was White) near White without clipping to much.
Same with Black (Borders?).

However, as you can see there are much that's actually clipped still, but i don't know if i should care about that, as from what i can see, it's just noise? (Look with Histogram).


(If an Image can be taken instead of a Video while keeping the YUV format, please tell me, as a Video is a waste here)
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  #8  
08-23-2014, 06:38 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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You aren't giving us enough information.
What capture card are you using?
What game console are you capturing from?
What software are you using to capture with? (VirtualDub? Capture card's software? Editor program?)
How are you viewing the capture (are you looking at the game console, or your PC monitor?)
Does your game console have any output image controls?
Is your viewing monitor calibrated? If so, How was it calibrated?

How did your capture sample appear before you changed it? The video you submitted has the correct colors. Whites are white, grays are gray, blacks are black. What the other colors are supposed to be is anyone's guess, but if black, white, and shades of gray look the way they are supposed to look, then all other colors will fall into place. This is why 11 shades of gray from black to white are used for primary RGB calibration of any device.

Be mindful of these points:

- If the output of your game console has no image controls, its output can't be calibrated.

- If you are viewing the game on a PC monitor or TV, your PC monitor or TV first has to be properly calibrated. Forget the color bars. You can't use them for calibration. They are used as part of a series of ways to validate a display that has been calibrated, and for purposes other than calibration itself.

- If the game you are playing or viewing has not been created for the same display standards that your display is calibrated for, then the game will not display the same way on your monitor as it did on the creator's equipment.

- If you want to capture an input signal with your capture device and capture software, and your display and graphics adapter are properly calibrated, but the incoming signal looks weird, then you should use the capture software's controls to adjust the incoming signal to look the way you think it's supposed to look.

- Colorbars tell you how the colorbars look on the viewing device on which the colorbars are being displayed. They might tell you something about the device itself, but they tell you nothing about how a particular game or incoming signal will look on that device.
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  #9  
08-23-2014, 06:57 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Quote:
You aren't giving us enough information.
Ah sorry.

Quote:
What game console are you capturing from?
Console is Nintendo Wii (But it's not just this one i would like to be able to calibrate, or rather fit the White/Black levels).

Quote:
What software are you using to capture with? (VirtualDub? Capture card's software? Editor program?)
Software depends, but it's GraphStudio-Next or Virtualdub. I pretty much use GrapStudio-Next as i tweak, as i find Avisynth Histogram with ffdshow easier to use.

Quote:
What capture card are you using?
Capture card is: H727 AverMedia. Component/Hdmi = Bright/Contr are only available, no color tweaking. But that doesn't really matter as colors isn't what i primary want to do here.

Quote:
Does your game console have any output image controls?
As far as i know, No.
So let's just Assume the Console is Correct and i want to make my Card handle that Signal correctly without Clipping real information.

Quote:
Is your viewing monitor calibrated? If so, How was it calibrated?
I look at my Monitor and Histogram, so i try to make what i think it White appear as White (or very close, don't want to clip to much).

Colors as you say is anyone guess. But Levels is what i look at.

Hmm default settings.. Not entirely sure, but it was Dark, way to dark, at least in some (probably all?) games.
I thought it was supposed to be like that at first, and though, hmm perhaps the Console just outputs it badly, but that wasn't the case as i later played around a bit.

Quote:
- If the game you are playing or viewing has not been created for the same display standards that your display is calibrated for, then the game will not display the same way on your monitor as it did on the creator's equipment.
Is this Valid for Luma as well, are are you speaking in terms of Colors?

Quote:
- If you want to capture an input signal with your capture device and capture software, and your display and graphics adapter are properly calibrated, but the incoming signal looks weird, then you should use the capture software's controls to adjust the incoming signal to look the way you think it's supposed to look.
This is pretty much what i want to do i think. But none of my stuff are calibrated. But what i want to do is not really make it "correct" in that way. I simply want what's White to be White in terms of a Histogram, and as it's not Digital, there is noise , so there is no "This is White, This is Black", you have to make the limit yourself, and that's what i want to do.

Damn i am crap at explaining this;S

Quote:
- Colorbars tell you how the colorbars look on the viewing device on which the colorbars are being displayed. They might tell you something about the device itself, but they tell you nothing about how a particular game or incoming signal will look on that device.
True when you mention it.
But colors can be ignored, let's just focus on the Levels.

Thanks
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  #10  
08-23-2014, 08:24 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thank you for that information.

A histogram of an image gives information about the characteristics of the image it is measuring. It has nothing to do with the way the image luminance or chroma displays on a monitor. You can't use a histogram of an image to properly calibrate a monitor. To calibrate a monitor, use tools designed for that purpose. From what you say, your monitor isn't calibrated properly to any known standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
Capture card is: H727 AverMedia. Component/Hdmi = Bright/Contr are only available, no color tweaking. But that doesn't really matter as colors isn't what i primary want to do here.
......
So let's just Assume the Console is Correct and i want to make my Card handle that Signal correctly without Clipping real information.
Capture histograms measure Levels, not individual colors. When darks and brights start crashing against the left and right borders of a histogram, then incoming levels exceed the standards for various video formats. The range for broadcast video levels (DVD, TV broadcast, etc.) is RGB 16-235. The range for PC-only displays is RGB 0-255. Dark values will be on the left side of the histogram. Bright values will be on the right. If the histogram graph exceeds the limits of the histogram window, those values are being clipped.

Levels are adjusted with Brightness and Contrast controls. Brightness and Contrast controls don't change hues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
But none of my stuff are calibrated. But what i want to do is not really make it "correct" in that way. I simply want what's White to be White in terms of a Histogram, and as it's not Digital, there is noise , so there is no "This is White, This is Black", you have to make the limit yourself, and that's what i want to do.
"Black" and "white" as you describe them are hues. In other words, they are colors. If your capture drivers or your graphics adapter has no means for adjusting Hue, then you need better hardware. The VirtualDub capture app's "Levels" dialog window hooks into your capture driver's image controls. If you see no adjustment for hue when using that dialog or when using GraphEdit, you need a better device with more flexible drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
But colors can be ignored, let's just focus on the Levels.
You are making conflicting statements. If you see a color that looks too blue or too red instead of white, you're talking about colors. If you're talking about a white object that looks too dark to suit you, you're talking about a color's luminance value (= "Levels").

If you browse some of the links provided earlier, you'll know a lot more about what you're trying to do. If you have no means for calibrating your monitor as described in those links, look through them anyway to find out what's going on. Then you can try some of the free tools at the lagom website. Monitor calibration includes corrections for levels, gamma, and color. Trying to adjust levels and color with an uncalibrated monitor is just stabbing in the dark and running in circles.
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08-23-2014, 08:34 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Okay we are stating to understand each other i think.

My choice of words "Calibrate" was it's own downfall, should have said "Legal Levels" or something.

Ignore that my monitor displays Red as True Red or not etc.
Colors appear "correctly" to my eyes as far as i can see.

And i got No control over Hue or Saturation when using Component (only Composite,S-Video has that option for me).
But luckily i don't really care as those are good in my book, and as Game Consoles have stable clear output compared to, let's say VCR and VHS tape, there is not much to bother with in that case.

But of course it's not true accurate colors as it's not calibrated and all that, but it's OK and they are Legal and not clipped.

Quote:
Capture histograms measure Levels, not individual colors. When darks and brights start crashing against the left and right borders of a histogram, then incoming levels exceed the standards for various video formats. The range for broadcast video levels (DVD, TV broadcast, etc.) is RGB 16-235. The range for PC-only displays is RGB 0-255. Dark values will be on the left side of the histogram. Bright values will be on the right. If the histogram graph exceeds the limits of the histogram window, those values are being clipped.
Precisely what i currently do, however it's not as concrete as i thought.

There isn't really a Line where "This is the darkest, therefore Black" in the Histogram when i record.
Or well there is a Line, but there is also stuff below that line, but i am thinking that's just noise.

If you look at the Video i sent with a Histogram you will see that i have made the Line align with TV Levels, but there is still some levels that are below that, and therefore clipped of Coring isn't used.

So problem i find is, When do i know, This is what should be Black, and This is what should be White appear?
currently i am only assuming, and trying to align it with the histogram, with tiny bit of headroom as the Line is quite thick and i don't want to crush it.
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  #12  
08-23-2014, 12:51 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
There isn't really a Line where "This is the darkest, therefore Black" in the Histogram when i record.
Or well there is a Line, but there is also stuff below that line, but i am thinking that's just noise.
your video has two black borders on each side. A black RGB-0 border will always be below the RGB16 "TV-color" line. That's where black borders are supposed to be on a histogram.

The YUV "TV-range" of RGB 16-235 is expanded in RGB by most displays to RGB 0-255. When colors or luma exceed that range, clipping occurs.

In your video menu there are 4 rows of icons. In the top row, in the small icon all the way to the right titled "Mr Game & Watch", the dark figure in that icon is RGB 0 to RGB 3 when displayed in RGB. There is no detail in that tiny figure and it's supposed to be solid "black", so it doesn't matter.

In the bottom row of icons, in the small white icon at the far right end with the caption "Random", the white background in that icon is between RGB 252 and RGB 255 when displayed in RGB. There is no detail in that white area, so it doesn't matter. The white doesn't exceed RGB range and doesn't try to crash against the sides of the histogram. So it's OK (i.e, "valid").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
If you look at the Video i sent with a Histogram....
I did. I viewed it with YUV histograms (showing the way the video is stored as YUV), and with RGB histograms (showing the way the video is displayed on a monitor or TV).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
....you will see that i have made the Line align with TV Levels, but there is still some levels that are below that, and therefore clipped of Coring isn't used.
True, the image values are aligned within the 16-235 range. That was correct. However, your uncalibrated monitor is leading you to some incorrect assumptions about the background color.

Tweaking:
(a) In all of the small icons in the 4 rows there is a narrow black top border with white letters in the titles. The "black" background in those icon titles is at around RGB 33 to RGB 38. The white letters in those titles measure at just over RGB 200 or so, thus the titles aren't a really bright white. That's what it looked like in my calibrated monitor, and that's the way the pixel sampler measured. (b) In the lower left corner of the menu screen, the word "Ike" in the big lower-left icon is white at RGB 245 or so. On my calibrated monitor it appeared to be just within the acceptable range, and that's the way it measured. (c) The gray part of the menu's top banner at the far top left looked like an almost perfect upper-middle gray. That's the way it measured with a pixel sampler, at an average of RGB 137-137-137. (d) The overall background that is everywhere in the menu's background averages values of RED 247 - Green 240 - Blue 242, which means that the white background has a slight red tint -- that's close enough to white to look like it, although some would be able to see that it's not a pure "white". My calibrated monitor shows that one section of the background looks exactly white but the rest of it is mostly various shades of pale tan and pink. The center-right section appears to be white. That's the way they measured, as well. A calibrated display and pixel samplers reveal that the background itself is not supposed to be entirely white. (e) My calibrated monitor tells me that the white banner across the top title with the letters "-minute KO fest!" is the only large object in the menu that has a pure white background, and that's the way it measured with a pixel sampler.

My calibrated monitor also tells me that the menu image looks a bit washed out or unsaturated, and the gamma or midpoint seems a bit high. I lowered the midpoint in RGB and increased saturation about 5%. That looks "better" and crisper to me, but that sort of tweak is a matter of personal preference. Viewed with a calibrated monitor, the only sizeable objects in the menu image that are pure white are the top banner with "-minute KO fest!", the small icon that reads "Random", the letters "Ike" in the lower left icon, and the face of the faded guitar or musical instrument on the right hand side of the background that is around RGB 240. Offhand I'd guess that your game console looks somewhat more saturated than shown below, but no one really knows whether it does or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
So problem i find is, When do i know, This is what should be Black, and This is what should be White appear?
currently i am only assuming, and trying to align it with the histogram, with tiny bit of headroom as the Line is quite thick and i don't want to crush it.
Use a calibrated monitor, histograms, and pixel readers. That's why advanced video and graphics applications use those tools and insist on proper monitor adjustment. They are there to help keep you from guessing and to display accurately so that you can see what you're doing.

original video:


adjustments:


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File Type: jpg menu -original video.jpg (114.5 KB, 17 downloads)
File Type: jpg menu - modified.jpg (120.9 KB, 16 downloads)
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  #13  
08-23-2014, 01:09 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Quote:
your video has two black borders on each side. A black RGB-0 border will always be below the RGB16 "TV-color" line. That's where black borders are supposed to be on a histogram.
Good, as that's what i assumed when i played around with the settings.

But those borders are then 0, compared to 16 in the Game, is that correct?
So i shouldn't scale the levels to make the Border appear right at 16, as that would make the actual image appear wrong?

Quote:
In your video menu there are 4 rows of icons. In the top row, in the small icon all the way to the right titled "Mr Game & Watch", the dark figure in that icon is RGB 0 to RGB 3 when displayed in RGB. There is no detail in that tiny figure and it's supposed to be solid "black", so it doesn't matter.
Here, i take it i am suppose to use this for example, to calibrate what's Black. And make it appear at TV range 16 at some points in that blackness (as everything won't be black cause of noise, and over clipping is not a good idea right?).

Quote:
My calibrated monitor also tells me that the menu image looks a bit washed out or unsaturated
It looks the same for me in that matter. And it's actually supposed to be that if i compare it to an Emulator, which at least give the correct image in terms of pixels. But i agree that it's not appealing at all, the tweaked version looks better, except i would use a bit less saturation;P

Quote:
My calibrated monitor shows that nothing in that background looks exactly white but is various shades of pale tan and pink
Fairly similar to what i see i guess.
As i don't see it as White, more like a colorish gray.

Quote:
Viewed with a calibrated monitor, the only sizeable objects in the menu image that are pure white are the top banner with "-minute KO fest!"
Same, so i used that as a White calibration point.

Quote:
Use a calibrated monitor, histograms, and pixel readers. That's why advanced video and graphics applications use those tools and insist on proper monitor adjustment. They are there to help keep you from guessing and to display accurately so that you can see what you're doing.
Doing that, except the Monitor part;P
I am dependent on the histogram and pixel readers. But it's enough in the aspect of clipping.
But for Accuracy in colors and the like, it's not of course.
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  #14  
08-23-2014, 01:12 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I'd use a properly adjusted display and other tools, rather than struggle and spend time guessing. But that's up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
Fairly similar to what i see i guess.
As i don't see it as White, more like a colorish gray.
The background isn't gray. It doesn't look that way on my monitor, nor does it measure that way.
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  #15  
08-23-2014, 01:21 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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I'd use a properly adjusted display and other tools, rather than struggle and spend time guessing. But that's up to you.
When looking at a histogram i don't need to really guess anything, it just need to see that White is 235 and black is 16, right?

[QUOTE]The background isn't gray. It doesn't look that way on my monitor, nor does it measure that way./QUOTE]

Well most likely my monitor. Gray is a bit of an overstatement, it looks more like, White, that's not White, but has been slightly colored. But i can't say what color, but probably towards the "red" segment rather than "blue".
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  #16  
08-23-2014, 05:35 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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If you're super-concerned about optimum YPbPr capture quality, you're going to want to buy a different capture card. All of the analog inputs on the H727 are subpar.

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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
If your capture drivers or your graphics adapter has no means for adjusting Hue, then you need better hardware.
Component inputs don't need Hue adjustment. Not including the option is intentional.
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  #17  
08-24-2014, 07:39 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Hm. That's odd. My Hauppauge PVR menu has color correction for capture on component input. Come to think of it, as you just mentioned, why isn't the O.P. using such a device for game capture anyway? And come to think of it, every device I have that accepts component input/output has color correction involved. And come to think of it, who says that a source played via component connections doesn't need color correction? Didn't you ever have a DVD player or similar device that connected to a TV or a/v receiver via component, and see video that was designed by some weirdo who set things up to look "great" on his TV but looks like crap on every other TV in the world?
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  #18  
08-24-2014, 07:49 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I renamed the thread. I think it's more accurate now. From the sample images, it seems to be an IRE (black level) issue, correct?
This is one of those threads where I mostly read.

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  #19  
08-24-2014, 07:53 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Indeed it is. Didn't know what to call it, and noticed that Calibration was wider in aspect than i thought, which ended up in quite the discussion of "irrelevant" stuff.

Though never the less that explained much even though it wasn't related to my question originally.
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  #20  
08-24-2014, 09:55 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I renamed the thread. I think it's more accurate now. From the sample images, it seems to be an IRE (black level) issue, correct?
This is one of those threads where I mostly read.
Whatever the game console or capture devce is doing, I think "IRE issue" explains most of the problem. Gamma is related to IRE levels, and here Gamma looks too high. So the image has a washed-out, one-dimensional look. As far as "RGB 16 = black" goes, that is not an accureate statement because any hue can have a component with an RGB value of 16. A value of "RGB 0 16 14" would lie somewhere in the region of RGB 16 luminance on a histograms, but the color isn't black. In any case, there is no RGB 16 16 16 black object in the video submitted.

The O.P.'s statement "RGB 235 is white" is also incorrect. There are an infinite number of colors with a color component that can have an RGB 235 value, but will not be white. The value "RGB 235 235 0" is not white. It's bright yellow. Again, levels and hue are being confused. It's also the case that just because an object in an image is white, that doesn't mean that the object is supposed to be the brightest object in the image. That object could be white RGB 217 217 217, and it would still be "white". The brightest part of the image might not be white at all. It could be a bright blue sky.

The RGB color channel components of an individual object cannot be ascertained by using just a histogram of the overall image. What you would need is a histogram of that object all by itself. That's a waste of time. Use a pixel sampler that translates individual pixel values into whatever numerical system you want.
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