Use same computer for video editing and capturing?
 

As I am looking at the various recommendations for older ATI AIW cards, I realize these mainly are installed on Pentium 4 systems. Mainly looking at the AIW 9600/9700 card (AGP slot). With that said, can a P4 machine properly equipped handle the editing tasks of lossless video files? Or do the ones who use this method transfer the file to a newer machine to edit?

I am new to the "computer" editing but I am looking at getting an AIW card to capture my video "lossless". I do understand about 2 hard drives, one dedicated to video. I also plan to use VirtualDub as discussed here. If anyone is using a P4 system in this way I 'd love to hear your system specs! :) My videos are at max .. about an hour long. Most are only 15-20 minutes each but several have very bad chroma noise in them that my hardware based equipment isn't removing.

Also, after editing on computer, do you burn to that drive or would you come out and burn to an external recorder? Only reason I mention this is because I have a JVC DRM10s which is recommended here on the forums a lot. I assume that is only when you are "hardware" editing though.

My "external" equipment:
Panasonic AG1980
Elite BVP
TBC 3000
Panasonic DMR-ES10 (for pass through only)
JVC DRM10S

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

People have been capturing analog video to lossless huffyuv or losslesss Lagarith files for at least 10 years or more with Pentium III and Pentium-4 PC's (my ATI card is now on an Athlon X2 2GHz PC, but it began life 'way back then on a Pentium III), plus processing them in Avisynth and Virtualdub and the like, authoring them on the same machine, and burning DVD's.

Capturing is no problem, as described. But edit, post-processing and the rest of it, while they're not impossible, runs so much faster on new machines. Transferring the losslessly compressed capture to an external drive and then working with it on a new PC saves lots of time. Many newer filters and processing apps are more CPU intensive than most capturing devices.

You'll probably need Avisynth as the best tool to handle that kind of noise. Depends on how bad it is.

:huh1:
Why would you use a DVD recorder for "editing" when you already have a captured video and the editing + processing + burning software/hardware on your computer for that purpose? Author and burn your final output on your editing PC. You might as well get a BluRay burner which will burn DVD and BluRay alike. We all hope you don't mean that you'll capture to your PC and then try to transfer it from your PC to your DVD recorder for burning.....but, no, I didn't think that's what you meant. You can't do it that way anyway.

Some takes on your equipment:

Panasonic AG1980: Great. Guard it with your life. Has a built-in line TBC, plenty of other good stuff.

Elite BVP : For capturing VHS? Color correction for VHS during capture is almost always a waste of time, since it can usually be done far better with software later. Depends on how horrible the color is on the tape. But basically you need a proc amp to set proper IRE and brightness levels during capture so that those elements fall within the RGB 16-235 corridor for digital video.

TBC 3000: essential for copy protection and/or really screwed up tapes, or frame-based signal problems. Most use the AG1980's line TBC and something like the TBC-3000 inline together.

Panasonic DMR-ES10 (for pass through only): Pass thru for what? What's your AG1980 and TBC-3000 for, and why do you need a pass-thru?

JVC DRM10S: For recording, I assume. But what are you recording? Not home-made VHS tapes, we hope.

And good luck, by the way.

Thanks and that is what I was thinking, just wanted to confirm. I'll look into the Avisynth.

I have heard good things about the JVC DRM10s for burning to dvd for its chipset but I think everyone who does it that way does not do computer editing, just hardware "outside the box" transfers. Again, I thought so, just wanted to verify.

Again, I bought most of this equipment for non-computer editing but as I see, the Elite BVP really shouldn't be used for color correction transfers to a computer. I am a newby and know that proper levels(i.e. RGB 16-235) need to be set but I will need to learn how to do that also before I transfer. I do also own a Studio 1 Proc Amp with black level meters. I just need to study up on a lot of things to learn how to set proper levels before/during capture. A lot to learn I realize and I'm ok with that.

Again, outside the box editing. It was suggested using the DMR-ES10 to sometimes correct tearing issues in conjunction with the AG1980 and TBC if necessary. Maybe I read some posts incorrectly but that is how I understood them.

Well, if not doing computer editing, yes, transferring them to the JVC to burn after sending them through the AG1980, TBC, and Elite.

Thanks for the info Sanlyn and really appreciate the help and advice here. I'll be asking more questions as I get my capture card up and running and dig into the forums more. :wink2:

There are Core 2 Duo motherboards that support AGP. That's what I use. So you're not limited to a single CPU P4. However, you are limited to Windows XP 32-bit, so you'll have 4gb RAM max. There are some very hackish ways to make the ATI AIW work in Windows Vista and Windows 7, but it's still 32-bit.

System specs:
- Intel Core 2 Duo
- ASRock motherboard ... the best of the 2-3 they have for AGP + C2D CPU
- 4gb DDR
- SATA hard drive x 3 (2tb max size)
- eSATA x 3

I forget the details. I'd have to look, and I'm not there right now.

Very good. :congrats:

You'll need VirtualDub, especially the Camcorder Color Denoise (CCD) filter.

Never go analog > digital > analog. That's what you do going from computer to DVD recorder.

Either use the JVC hardware workflow, or the ATI card workflow.

What you do with files really depends on your needs.

For example, I often capture AVI, process, save to BD spec MPEG-2 (15mbps), then store on hard drive. I rarely burn anything for myself these days. I use a WDTV, not DVD player. That's for my personal stuff.

For clients, I do whatever they need/want.

This is all good gear. :2cents:

Two solid workflows are possible there -- the DVD recorder method, or the capture card method.

Not Pentium III. ATI Theatre required P4. PIII was for DV. ;)

One word: eSATA. Get a 2tb Fantom eSATA drive (no larger).

Nope. VirtualDub handles chroma noise better than Avisynth.

Yes. It can be most helpful. I captured some samples last year, and will be working on that guide (and many others) this spring.

Nope. Depends entirely on the individual tape. When it comes to color correction, sometimes hardware is best, sometimes software is best. Often you'll need both. (That crappy tiny sample image on our services page show the difference for hardware/software only vs combined correction. That was a terrible image, and I hope to replace it this spring as well.

... but generally, yes, all you need is IRE/brightness correction from the proc amp, not the color tweaks. The hardware is mostly good for major color shifts, while software allows more granular tweaks.

Nope. Take Hi8 and Video8. The tape can look pristine, better than VHS, yet drop frames like crazy. The signal is simply wonky and not 100% perfect like it needs to be for digital workflows. It's an analog format, and in the analog workflow days it wasn't as big a deal. Now it is. Copy protection is simpyl an artificial video error.

Tearing is often not fixed by either TBC. I was the one to discover the side function of this recorder 10 years ago. It has a very strong filtering (timing) ability. It's technically a type of TBC, but not what we'd usually consider to be one. The definitions of TBC are so complex that even I have to refer back to my own notes at times.

DVD recorders can be quite useful -- especially the JVC with LSI chips. Don't dismiss them too quickly. :wink2:

And it's a solid workflow. I use this depending on the personal/client project needs.

Tip: Don't get too lost in docs. Use your eyes.
Be sure to get a quality IPS LCD for video. Get this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...LK4NVV7XNWPAVP

You understood correctly. :congrats:

This is fine.

Thanks to lordsmurf for clarifying some issues.

ES10/ES15 as tbc: I've never had a tearing problem with my AG1980, with or without my old 2004 AVT attached. I do often use a non-tbc sVHS Panasonic PV-S4672 with my ES15 as pass-thru, and the ES15 did repair tearing and other problems. It also bypassed Macrovision when used as pass-thru. Because I've never had the problem as described, I'll take the word of experts on combining the AG1980 with the ES15. However, I'd think that if you used the combination of AG1980 + TBC3000 + ES15, by the time the signal gets to the ES10 or ES15 the pass-thru wouldn't see any errors and would do nothing. I'll have to try it sometime.

Pentium III + All In Wonders: that was an older ATI card and, of course, was replaced with newer ones on Pentium 4's. Those p-4's are gone now, replaced with Athlon X2's for capture using the ATI 7500 and 9600XT cards. The Athlons are not super-tech machines, run at 2.2 GHz at their best, with 2GB RAM in cheap but reliable (after 8 years) Biostar AGP motherboards. I never have problems capturing with those PC's. But, yes, with new software and high-tech filters it's a little pokey with post-processing. But a couple years back I had After Effects Pro CS3 installed on one of them and had no problems with that software. Obviously, my newer and faster machines get faster results with post-processing.

I'm building a new Win7 PC, but I've done hi-def processing with 4GB RAM on the one Intel XP machine I have. Yes, the Intel/XP i5/3.7GHz does balk a little at heavy HD processing at 1920x1080. The new Win7 will obviously run ahead of that. But old tapes wouldn't be processed at 1920x1080 anyway. Old VHS/Hi8 captures really look like poohpooh when upscaled with software. If you want high-bitrate BluRay/AVCHD, remember as lordsmurf notes that the BluRay spec includes standard definition MPEG2 video at very high bitrates. You'd be surprised how many retail BluRays are standard definition 4:3 and 16:9, encoded with either MPEG (better for interlacing) or h264.

I've captured several retail VHS with my old ES20 LSI-equipped DVD recorder.They look OK, but just OK. But those retail tapes were in pristine condition and played on an SVHS JVC or Panasonic via s-video an old Toshiba Rd-XS34 for pass-thru and anti-Macrovision (okay, this was few years back). Hi8 and home-made tapes are a different story, IMO. They're noisy and have plenty of defects, some of which are due to the recording camera or recording VCR, some of which are due to playback. An AG1980 can make them look a lot cleaner, but home-made tapes recorded directly to MPEG are a big problem to my eyes. I tried that a few times with old home made tapes, but gave up on it and turned to lossless capture to get much better results. To each his own there, I guess.

Proc amp: The Sign Video proc amp's luminance meter is a godsend. As for color correcting old home tapes, the color and levels change every couple of minutes and often scene by scene, so I find serious proc amp color work with those sources to be little more than frustrating at best. Sure, there will be tapes with really ugly color problems that are best corrected as well as possible in hardware during capture. I've had a few of those tapes, too, but had to go back and recapture some out-of-whack segments and patch them into the final video later. The first time you capture a problem tape and attempt detailed color correction with a proc amp, you'll see what I mean. The mistake many people make with proc amps is not to make primary corrections so much as to "enhance" the signal to try to get perfect color correction the first time out. That's doing it the hard way IMO. I had one tape that was uniformly too green and over saturated from start to finish, so my Sign Video's color controls were used to correct that during capture. But the capture still required further correction in RGB, almost scene by scene. It's just a really bad VHS transfer from film with aging problems to boot.

Of course, many people ain't that picky. :wink2:

Wow. Thanks Lordsmurf and Sanlyn. Dont have time to read through all this tonight but will look at tomorrow. Work comes early tomorrow. I did want to say "thanks" VERY much and I'll reply tomorrow night with a few questions most likely.

Correct. :congrats:

That workflow =
Panasonic or JVC VCR (TBC off) > ES10 > DataVideo/AVT external TBC

The VCR is just a good VCR here.
The ES10 corrects the initial timing error that causes the tearing.
The external TBC takes care of residual dropped frames which are still not corrected by the ES10.

So you were right, but apparently you didn't realize it. :laugh:

There ya go. Thanks, lordsmurf. That's what I was getting at -- I took the long way around, though!

You can still buy those ASRock Socket 775 AGP boards new! Most of them are based on Intel's last AGP chipset, the i865. Don't bother with 64-bit Windows, the chip set can't address above 4GB anyway. If you can find a PCIe AIW, its also a viable capture platform, but the cards are a PITA to find. Right now I have a AIW X800XT in a machine dual booting Windows 8.1 x64 and Windows XP.

One of these days I'll give XP x64 a shot, because if I recall, ATI released 64-bit XP drivers for the AIW cards. I want to give XP x64 a try, mostly because it natively supports GUID Partition Table drives, handy if I ever get a 2+TB capture drive. There are 3rd party GPT drive mounters for XP, but I would prefer a native solution. That and having more than 3.25GB of RAM available is nice too.

Don't forget the later JVC DVHS decks. While rare, they do have a passthru TBC that corrects tearing (at least the stuff I threw at it).

Automatic white balance on consumer camcorders makes color correction a royal pain on home videos. My old Betamax footage was much easier, mostly because the camcorder had manual white balance. One of these days I'll hook up the DPS Personal Videoscope I snagged and see how crazy the luma levels are on these tapes.

Good idea on the WDTV. Does it store files directly or stream them Wifi? I have a ROKU HDMI stick that may be able to stream files online or from my computer. I'll have to check into that.


I assume this is just for file saving and transfer, not writing "to" during capture? I use the internal SATA for this correct?


Thanks for the tip. I like to know and adhere to rules but also let my eyes do what look best, that is with the proper viewing equipment. Thanks for that monitor advice. Will definitely check into that! ;)

I did wonder how "upscaling" a VHS tape would turn out. Sounds like you answered my question and I thought it might be that way. Maybe in 20 (or less) years new technology will be here to make it better.

I have tried various captures thus far and although better, I feel they can be even a touch better when done with software so I want to give it a try. I may very well still use the services here for a few 15 minute video clips since I know they will turn out the best possible with professionals working on them.

I really like the meters on the Sign Video proc amp. Still learning "exactly" how to use them but it gives me confidence knowing I can gauge whats being sent through the unit.

I'm quite picky sometimes .... or most I guess! Drives me crazy! lol! :)

Thanks! Will look into that board. :wink2:


Will remember that! Thanks for your input NJRoadfan.


Talking about the ATI AIW cards, does it matter if its 128mb or 256mb? Is that figure just something that helps on playback or does it speed up/enhance capture quality?

Also...I notice on some cards, 9600 and 9800 I believe, they mention AGP 4x/8x . My computer is definitely 4x. Seems like I read hear somewhere to stay away from 8x if I have a 4x bus. Does that apply to these cards are just the cards that mention 8x only?

The capture function is completely separate from the main video card GPU (which has the 128/256MB of RAM). Don't worry about the GPU's specs, all the AGP and PCIe AIWs are thoroughly obsolete DirectX 9 era 3D cards anyway.

Sounds good...thanks!

There's not enough bandwidth to stream it wirelessly. Not sure about wired. It's best to just plug in a drive. What I do is transfer videos to a large thumb drive, from the master drives, and watch it that way. I find that works best...

...especially if you have a nosy cat that may knock a drive over. :mad4:

It depends on the firmware/chipset of the eSATA. Some are fine, others are not (so transfer only). I had an issue with a system last year, and replaced the SATA card. It was fine after that.

Use to have one of those cats! :D Miss that ole cat!

Thanks for the tips. Think I'll look into that WDTV too. Googled it and it looks pretty cool.

Get this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/WD-TV-Live-H...item35ceebb9c3
grassroots-computers is an excellent seller.

Cool. Thanks for the link. Great price too. Look forward to getting this! :wink2:

So I've got the ATI 7500 card and software ready to go then all of a sudden I realize I can capture using ATI OR Virtualdub. Is one preferred over the other if using the exact capture settings/specs? Also do you know if one program requires more computer resources than the other? I am capturing with a 2.0Ghz P4 Windows XP.

...maybe should have started a new thread but felt this was still related to my capture question. Thanks!

Use VirtualDub for capturing lossless Huffyv AVI.
Use ATI MMC for capturing MPEG-2, including 15mbps Blu-ray spec MPEG2.

Thanks Smurf! Just curious, why Huffy vs YUY2? My choices under compression are "no recompression YUY2" and "Huffyuv"

YUY2 is a colorspace matrix. huffyuv is a lossless compressor that can compress YUY2 or RGB video.

Capture from SD VHS to lossless huffyuv compressed YUY2 runs about 25GB per hour of video. Un compressed YUY2 would be about 75GB per hour.

If you want Virtuadub capture to huffyuv YUY2, set the desired colorspace to YUY2, set the compressor to huffyuv.