Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Capture, Record, Transfer

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
02-17-2015, 05:41 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question. I've been using Canopus ADVC converter until now but I'm trying to move away from the DV format and over to M-JPEG using my old AIW 7500 card instead.

I think I've managed to set it up properly to capture YUY2 With the PICVid M-JPEG codec. It seems to work very well with VirtualDub 1.9.11. I can capture for more than 3hours without any droped frames or audio synch problems. THAT'S NICE!

BUT! The colors doesn't look right at all and absoluteley not like I'm used to with the DV format?!
I've tried using the AVI Synth script "ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV")", but that just makes it washed out instead.

Here are some examples:

This is the DV footage (this is CORRECT to my eyes)


This is the original capture from VirtualDub (TO HARD!)


And this is converted with "ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV")" (TO GREY!)


WHAT AM I DOING WRONG???


Attached Images
File Type: jpg DV.jpg (169.3 KB, 46 downloads)
File Type: jpg MJPEG original.jpg (136.8 KB, 46 downloads)
File Type: jpg MJPEG pc-tv.jpg (122.2 KB, 46 downloads)
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
02-17-2015, 05:52 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Why are you using MJPEG instead of Huffyuv?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #3  
02-17-2015, 05:58 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Simply to save disc space. I want to store all my old VHS tapes on HDD in as uncompressed hi-quality as possible. I used to capture as DV and convert them to MPEG-2 for archiving, but now I want higher quality, but I guess HuffYUV will be to large and eat to much HDD space.

I guess M-JPEG at quality 19 is a lot better with more editing possibilities than MPEG-2?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
02-17-2015, 06:14 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
How many tapes do you have?
I'd capture Huffyuv, quick process in Avisynth and/or VirtualDub, save to 15mbit MPEG-2. Skip the MJPEG.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #5  
02-17-2015, 06:17 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I Guess somewhere between 150 and 200.

Are these color problems that I'm now experiencing related to the MJPEG format that will be avoided if I go for HuffYUV instead?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
02-17-2015, 06:33 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Not sure.

I've not used MJPEG in 10+ years now.

It was never a great format, and was a format created for the Pentium III generation like DV. Huffyuv, on the other hand, was the P4 generation when video really started to take off (ATI AIW, DVD burners, MPEG-2 encoding, etc).

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #7  
02-17-2015, 06:37 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I see

What settings do you use for your 15mbit MPEG-2?
And what kind of "quick process" do you do in Avisynth and/or VirtualDub?

I'm not very good at doing restoration and applying filters etc right now. I want to store a hi-Q file that will be good enough for applying filters later, if I ever get real good at it Is MPEG-2 good enough?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
02-17-2015, 06:42 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
What settings? Same as DVD -- but with the higher bitrate for Blu-ray SD compliancy.

Quick process =
- realign the chroma (remove color bleed) in Avisynth
- remove chroma noise with CCD filter in VirtualDub
- mask in VirtualDub
- clip start/end/commercials in VirtualDub
- remove audio hiss in SoundForge + Audacity
- MainConcept to process the AVI to MPEG

That's a basic process. The advanced restoration is saved for projects that need it, which is maybe 25% of my collection at most. And that's only because I have lots of "copies of copies" material from the 80s-90s, before we had digital.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #9  
02-17-2015, 06:57 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I see.
Thank you very much for sharing your workflow
I'll experiment with HuffYUV and see if I get any better colors ;-)

I'm using "Canopus ProCoder" for converting to MPEG-2. It has a preset for MPEG-2 at 15mbit called "MPEG2, Edit/Archive, 720 x 576, 25fps, Constant Quality, For video editing and archiving systems supporting 422P@ML MPEG-2 streams."

I think it keeps the video 4:2:2? When converted with that preset, the file won't play properly in Windows Media Player but it works fine in VLC and other mediaplayers... and it seems to edit fine in Adobe Premiere etc. Do you know anything about it and do you think it's any good, better than regular DVD 4:2:0 at 15mbit?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
02-17-2015, 07:03 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Canopus Procoder was fine. Just keep a close watch for some of the bugs. "Mastering Quality" was actually worse than the next-higher setting, for example, on the 2.0 version of the software. There were some odd colorspace issues, but I forget the conditions that caused it. Like MJPEG, I quit using Procoder many years ago. MainConcept was better.

4:2:2 is ideal, yes. But for BD-R compliancy, I use 4:2:0. It's your choice here. If you'll never archive to playable disc, then it's not a worry.

WMP is a crappy player. Forget it exists. Use VLC and MPC.

Regular DVD is 9.8mbit max (or 10.08mbit under certain conditions). Bluray is 15mbit max.

Try Huffyuv. See what you see.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #11  
02-17-2015, 12:43 PM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I see. Is it the MainConcept TotalCode Studio you are using or just the codecs?

I've tried capturing with the HuffYUV codec now, but I have the exact same problem with the colors as above with MJPEG :-(

...and another VERY anoying thing... my audio gets cut/clipped at -3dB (see picture). WHY????



Attached Images
File Type: jpg audio clip.jpg (56.9 KB, 44 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
02-17-2015, 06:10 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
MainConcept Reference, the name it had before it was renamed TotalCode.

That's a serious audio distortion problem. While it could be the tape, it's not likely. That looks to be a volume issue on the hardware or software. You need to trace it. It could be the wires, the Windows audio levels, or using Mic instead of Line In (or having Aux connect wrong internally).

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: hysteriah (02-18-2015)
  #13  
02-18-2015, 02:29 PM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Okey. The audio problem was caused by my "Creative SoundBlaster Live 5.1 Digital" soundcard that seems to be "faulty". I tried updating drivers etc. but then I just replaced it with a Creative Audigy and now the sound seems fine. I also managed to "fix" the color space problem, I think. I don't really know what was causing it, but I fixed it by just opening up the ATI MMC TV app and close it before opening VirtualDub. Then the colors was right when entering VirtualDub. Guess I just have to make that a part of my routine to open MMC before VD. STRANGE!

Now, I just have one more question for you, lordsmurf :-)
I'm going to capture all my old VHS tapes now and I want to save 2 files for each tape that I digitize. 1 low quality file with just some quick proces filters just for regular watching... and one "untouched" high quality file for advanced restoration work later. I don't have enough knowledge at this moment to apply advanced filters and AVI Synth Scripts etc, but I may develop to do some more advanced restoration work in the future (or get some expert help). That's why I want to keep a high quality file so it won't be necessary to capture all my tapes again.

My originally plan was to capture as M-JPEG and keep the M-JPEG file as my Hi-Q file, but you really think a MPEG-2 file at 15mbps is better suited for advanced editing like that? Should I capture as HuffYUV and then convert it to 4:2:2 MPEG-2, or should I capture directly to MPEG-2 using ATI MMC? What settings do you suggest for a MPEG-2 file like that? Should I use VBR or CBR? I-frames only or what GOP settings do you suggest? Maybe I should switch to MainConcept instead of ProCoder?

Gosh, you really put me in a dilemma now by telling me MJPEG is not good ;-) *hehe*

Last edited by hysteriah; 02-18-2015 at 02:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
02-18-2015, 09:25 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
ATI MMC should not at all affect VirtualDub. Something else is going on.

Huffyuv is better for advanced editing.
MPEG-2 is for storage, for watching, and the "final master" (already restored, no further work needed)

Just buy more 2tb eSATA drives. http://dfaq.us/fantom2tb

How many tapes are were talking here? Time for some math.
35gb/hour * # tapes = space required

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #15  
02-19-2015, 07:05 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Oh, but it does. It seems like VD doesn't save the settings for my AIW7500 card on exit. Every time I enter VD, it's set back to NTSC_M instead of PAL_B that I'm using. But if I enter the MMC TV app before VD, everything's set properly when I enter VD. Remember that this is an old AIW 7500 card. I'm using Catalyst 4.8 and MMC 9.02, both released 16.08.2004. I guess these drivers are optimized for the 9000 Series Cards. Maybe that has something to do with it?

When it comes to the HuffYUV vs. DV vs. M-JPEG vs. MPEG-2 question, I simply can't store all my tapes as HuffYUV. It's just TOO BIG and I simply can't afford all the HDD space. I realize that HuffYUV is the best format for restoration work, and I will probably save my MOST valuable recordings with it, but I must choose the "NeXT best thing" for most of my tapes. The question is; WHAT IS THE NEXT BEST THING? Is it DV, M-JPEG or MPEG-2?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
02-19-2015, 07:27 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,155
Thanked 357 Times in 293 Posts
A 1TB hard drive can hold HOURS of HuffYUV footage. Storage is cheap these days.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
02-19-2015, 07:45 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,503
Thanked 2,448 Times in 2,080 Posts
Typical project = 50 tapes = one 2tb drive
... yes, the math doesn't quite line up. But a "2-hour" tape is rarely two hours, and the "35gb/hour" is rarely actually that large a file.

Next best would be to capture as MPEG-2 15mbit in ATI MMC. I do this myself.
Some ATI MMC versions allow 20mbit. You could do that too.
The files are 50% the size of Huffyuv.

Try some of these for yourself, and give us your feedback on what you think.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #18  
02-20-2015, 05:49 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Okey... I will probably buy a lot more HDD space and keep my HuffYUV file... or... maybe I just move back to my Canopus converter???

I've done a comparison between my Canopus TwinPact 100 and my ATI AIW 7500 card now... and tell me, isn't the Canopus image a lot cleaner??? And why is the frame moved 3 pixels up on the AIW 7500?

And why does the AIW7500 stretch the picture when capturing 720 x 576 instead of 704 x 576? 704 x 576 is the only way to capture without getting distorted proportions

Canopus EX1:


AIW EX1:


Canoppus EX2:


AIW EX2:


Attached Images
File Type: jpg ATI AIW7500_1.jpg (154.1 KB, 41 downloads)
File Type: jpg ATI AIW7500_2.jpg (158.2 KB, 40 downloads)
File Type: jpg Canopus TP100_1.jpg (160.8 KB, 41 downloads)
File Type: jpg Canopus TP100_2.jpg (167.5 KB, 40 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
02-20-2015, 10:23 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,155
Thanked 357 Times in 293 Posts
The stretched appearance is normal for 720x480 capture. It isn't square pixel video, the player resizes it to 4:3 (VirtualDub has the option to force 4:3 for its preview). 16:9 video is also saved to 720x480 as well and everyone looks thin before the player stretches it out.

In terms of quality, I don't see a major difference in the stills in terms of detail. The horizontal shift in image is variance in h-sync between capture devices. Completely normal, but only high end professional equipment (like rack mount TBCs) allows adjustment of this. The vertical shift is capture device related too, but shouldn't be a problem since its all within the over scan area of the video.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank NJRoadfan for this useful post: hysteriah (02-20-2015)
  #20  
02-20-2015, 11:01 AM
hysteriah hysteriah is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 150
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
But on my Canoppus Eamples, there's added black boarders (8 pixels) on each side of the video. On the AIW7500 card, it doesn't add those black boarders, it simply stretches the image to fill the frame. They both get played as 4:3 video by mediaplayers. That actuallt means a mismatch of 16 pixels that is getting stretched out of porpotions. I know it's not much, but it's not right, is it?

AIW EX2 (720x576):


Attached Images
File Type: jpg ATI AIW7500_2 (720).jpg (157.5 KB, 38 downloads)
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Huffyuv YUY2 AVI to Blu-ray conversion? (and TBC samples!) vhsdigital34 Project Planning, Workflows 264 04-19-2018 05:14 AM
Capturing full dynamic range (in terms of color) of VHS? JasonCA Capture, Record, Transfer 7 03-03-2013 08:10 PM
Video color matching problem with VirtualDub!? Mejnour Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 6 01-31-2013 01:22 AM
Shooting High res JPEG or RAW or RAW+JPEG, and sRGB or Adobe RGB ? Sossity Photo Cameras: Buying & Shooting 3 11-15-2010 07:15 PM
DV color space harmful to analog color quality? Verify? DeXeSs Capture, Record, Transfer 6 06-27-2010 01:48 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:23 AM