Quantcast Converting Hi-8 tapes to DVD - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
07-21-2015, 03:55 PM
willmcd21237 willmcd21237 is offline
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I am currently in the process of converting some Hi-8 tapes of family vacations/events to DVD. I am using a Canopus ADVC-300 to save the video to my PC and then using VideoReDo to create the DVD. However, I wasn't too happy with the results I was getting - there was quite a loss of video quality when the camera would pan from side to side. Are there any suggestions you could give for me to end up with a better quality picture?

Thanks,

Will
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07-21-2015, 04:11 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Welcome to the forum.

I'd say that capturing hi8 analog source with a Canopus to lossy DV will show quality loss every where, not just on pans. VideoReDo can't undo or clean lossy DV compression and tape noise artifacts, even if it does give you DVD format. Lossy DV is PC-only playback and must be re-encoded (another quality step down) for DVD, which can't be anything other than MPEG2.

I would recommend capturing to lossless formats and learning to do your own encoding. VideoRedo is basically a smart rendering editor and acts as a converter more as a kind of side benefit. You'll get better encodes if you take more control of the process and avoid DV. Or second best, decode DV to lossless media. clean up the artifacts, and use a good MPEG encoder.

How much video in terms of playing time are you encoding for each DVD disc?

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-21-2015 at 04:46 PM.
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  #3  
07-22-2015, 10:35 AM
willmcd21237 willmcd21237 is offline
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I was mainly putting the videos on DVD since it would be easily transportable, but I guess I could accomplish the same thing by leaving them on a portable hard drive. If I was to give up on using the Canopus, what would you recommend I use to capture? I am currently using an older computer to capture (running Windows XP).
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  #4  
07-22-2015, 01:07 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Nothing wrong with XP. We still recommend it as the primary capture, cleanup and restoration OS because of the apps and filters available. Edits (which really just means cut/join, add some transitions, that sort of thing) can be done on any OS.

Over the years, the best workflow for analog/VHS is still capture to lossless media. That hasn't changed, despite 64-bit, new Windows versions, HD, new codecs, etc., etc. The ATI 600 USB or simialr versions from Hauppauge are most often recommended if you can't get the old AGP line of All In Wonders, and capture with Virtualdub. Admitted, that's a longer workflow and bigger captures, but they can always be encoded with other codecs for smaller archives. The advantage of lossless is one main consideration: lossless doesn't have the artifacts or noise of lossy codecs for capture. You can filter lossless media, make umpteen lossless versions of the original, and there's no data loss or messy artifacts through re-encoding. The only encoding involved is your final product, in your case DVD. Lossless caps using huffyuv, Lagarith or UT Codec compression is slightly larger than DV for the same video, about 30GB/hour.

DV is often used, but you are dealing with a lossy encode and compression noise at the very start. These don't improve with re-encoding, they just get somewhat worse. Cut and join with DV is not a problem, as DV is encoded as all I-frames. But any filtering, image mods, adding fancy effects, color correction, etc., means another lossy encode. Since DV is PC-only or in-camera playback, add yet another encode for your final product. Source noise and interlace problems are easier to clean up with lossless media.

If you want someone to analyze and recommend something to prevent the problems you described earlier, we would need a short sample of a few seconds of DV video that has motion (someone moving, camera pan, whatever). That would be the original, unprocessed and un-reencoded DV, not from the DVD. You can make an unprocessed exact copy sample by cutting the edit in VirtualDub and saving the sample using "direct stream copy". Other editors can do it as as long as you output a copy, not a re-render or re-encode. A re-encode won't help; we already know what re-encoding does.

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-22-2015 at 01:38 PM.
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  #5  
07-22-2015, 04:21 PM
willmcd21237 willmcd21237 is offline
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Thanks for all the tips/advice - I greatly appreciate it!!! Do you have a preference between the ATI 600 or the AGP line of All In Wonders? It looks like the ATI 600 would be easier to setup since it is USB and all the All In Wonders I saw look like they need to be installed in the computer itself.
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07-22-2015, 06:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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It's difficult to compete with the old AGP All In Wonders for video capture, unless you're willing to spend 4-digit bucks on a capture device and even more on the special software and support gear that goes with it. The AGP's were full-featured graphics adapters, not just capture cards. The ATI600 is about as close as you can get to that today, looks good to me because it has the same Theater 200 capture chip as the old AGP's. I still use my ATI 7500 and 9600XT AGPs in newer XP PCs I built for capture.
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07-22-2015, 08:35 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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The ATI 600 uses a Texas Instruments video chip. It would be cool if there was a USB stick featuring the T200, but alas.
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07-22-2015, 09:24 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Then Ive been misled by a number of posts in this forum, or some posts have confused the 600 with other ATI devices. I stand corrected. Nevertheless, from caps I've seen on several forums and from experienced testimony, the ATI600 isn't perfect but is probably the best bet these days for lossless VHS capture.
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  #9  
07-27-2015, 03:57 PM
willmcd21237 willmcd21237 is offline
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I just realized my computer has PCI expansion slots rather that AGP, which I think limits me to some of the older models ofATI all-in-wonders. Should I still go with one of those or try the ATI600?
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07-28-2015, 06:59 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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AGP slots were designed for AGP graphics adapters. ATI did make the TV Wonder series of capture-only PCI cards that used Theater 200 chips. I haven't seen one of those posted anywhere for years. The thread linked here lists alternatives to the old AGP AIW line: Best ATI All In Wonder card alternatives, to transfer tapes to digital?.

You'll see canopus cards listed as well, but they don't capture to lossless media. Analog and DV are not very friendly with each other. DV as a simple cut-and-join codec is OK for DV itself, but even without analog input DV has problems such as compression artifacts that are difficult to work with if any kind of cleanup, color correction, or image mods are involved. Besides being PC-only playback, lossy DV encodes have to go through yet another lossy encode to get sharable formats like DVD, mkv, mp4, SD BluRay/AVCHD, etc. DV's original compression problems don't go away with re-encoding; re-encoding simply keeps the original compression effects and usually adds new ones. DV had its day. Modern external players don't support DV.

There's a lot of talk about ATI's MMC application, which is still useable but which has also had its day. Using an XP machine, analog is usually captured to lossless YUY2 or similar 4:2:2 storage matrix using lossless compressors like huffyuv or Lagarith that are designed for video work. Lossless means that no data is discarded during compression; what you get when you open, play, or decompress lossless video is the same data that went into it. Lossy compression discards data, which is why it's called lossy. Each new lossy recompression loses more data.

When you're new to video restoration and delivery formats, DV at first looks pretty good. As soon as you start working with it to any serious extent, you'll soon see the effects of multiple stages of compression. Hi-8, VHS=-C, and VHS have their own problems to begin with, but they're analog problems. "Artifacts" are digital phenomena, not analog. Capping analog to DV doesn't make analog problems go away It simply imbeds them as problematic digital artifacts. Much the same thing can be said for analog caps to other lossy formats like MPEG, DivX, h264, etc.

Apps like VideoReDo are not primarily designed as format converters, but as smart-rendering editors that work best when outputting the same format and encoding as the original, without re-encoding the entire video. The quality loss you see converting lossy DV directly to lossy MPEG is more or less typical for such conversions without cleanup. I use VideoReDo myself to make smart-rendered HD edits recorded with an HD PVR as AVCHD off HD cable and to sometimes make corrections for sloppy audio sync that occasionally shows up with those recordings. I don't use it to re-encode to other formats.

This forum and others like videohelp have hundreds of analog to DV threads that illustrate the problems of getting those caps cleaned up for other delivery formats. You'd be surprised at the problems that surface.

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-28-2015 at 07:18 AM.
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  #11  
08-05-2015, 12:37 PM
willmcd21237 willmcd21237 is offline
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Thanks again for all your help. I purchased a ATI All-In-Wonder 7500 VE yesterday, so I'll give it a shot next week and hopefully will get better results than I was getting with the Canopus.

Will
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  #12  
08-05-2015, 01:47 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I bought my 7500 years ago brand new and still use it with VirtualDub capture. Good luck.
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  #13  
08-10-2015, 03:53 AM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willmcd21237 View Post
... there was quite a loss of video quality when the camera would pan from side to side.
Is there like a ghosting look or stuttering? If so it's a field order issue.

Quote:
TVSuite V5 - 5.1.2.732 (Released 2015-06-20)
[Fix] DV video: Not picking up the correct field order for DV and DVPro video.
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  #14  
08-10-2015, 05:11 AM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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Quote:
Not picking up the correct field order for DV and DVPro video.
Your new version is a beta.
I have the previous version and no trouble with Canopus DV-AVI with BFF
---------------




DV Avi cut goes there not, he wants to encode to mpeg2.
VirtualDub can do better ... [Direct Stream Copy]


Attached Images
File Type: jpg VideoReDo---2.9600.jpg (61.2 KB, 4 downloads)

Last edited by Goldwingfahrer; 08-10-2015 at 05:30 AM.
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