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  #1  
08-10-2015, 11:45 PM
ShadowChaos ShadowChaos is offline
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Hello!

I am planning out a rather big project. I have been researching Analogue to digital conversion. Working on capturing old projects and tons of family videos, planning on working with VHS/VHS-c/Minidv/HI8/Digital8.. As you can tell I have a lot to capture haha. I have been looking into professional level decks lately, trying to get something like the SR-VS30 with firewire out. I have also been considering the ADVC-110. My main concern is quality of the video/audio. Is there any quality loss with using a ADVC-110 instead of firewire?
Should I use a capture card instead?
I am also trying to hunt down a really good digtal8 camcorder and a VHS deck for the best possible captures of my tapes.
What about TBC? do i need to worry about this?

Can anyone give me some general advice as to what kind of equipment and workflow I would need?
Thanks.
Looks like it could be a pretty cool forum.
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  #2  
08-10-2015, 11:54 PM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
planning on working with VHS/VHS-c/Minidv/HI8/Digital8..
For the mini DV and digital8 you just need firewire and firewire port. You don't actually capture it, instead you're making an exact bit for bit copy of what is on the tape.

Note some digital 8 camcorders are compatible with hi-8 and convert hi-8 to DV.

Also note some digital8/mini DV camcorders can be used as DV capture device, you hook the VHS deck to the cam and it will convert to DV and send it over firewire just like the 110.

I'm not going to get into the arguments about the quality of using the 110 except to say I have always loved mine. It's stupid easy and the quality is more than adequate..... Good deck and a TBC and you're set to go.
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  #3  
08-11-2015, 12:13 AM
ShadowChaos ShadowChaos is offline
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Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
For the mini DV and digital8 you just need firewire and firewire port. You don't actually capture it, instead you're making an exact bit for bit copy of what is on the tape.

Note some digital 8 camcorders are compatible with hi-8 and convert hi-8 to DV, that is the problem, sohuld I bother investing in a pro deck or get another camcorder. I know that there are no VHS/VHS-c camcorders that have firewire.

Also note some digital8/mini DV camcorders can be used as DV capture device, you hook the VHS deck to the cam and it will convert to DV and send it over firewire just like the 110.

I'm not going to get into the arguments about the quality of using the 110 except to say I have always loved mine. It's stupid easy and the quality is more than adequate..... Good deck and a TBC and you're set to go.
True, yes I know about the Digital 8 and minidv. I no longer have a working camcorder to capture them via firewire.

So I would plug in a VHS deck>--analog cables--> TBC--analouge cables--> camcorder>--firewire--> PC ?

And for VHS-C is the best option:
VHS-c cassette adaptor->VHS deck>--analog cables--> TBC--analouge cables--> camcorder>--firewire--> PC ?


No arguments, just looking for advice.
Thanks for the response!
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  #4  
08-11-2015, 01:38 AM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
True, yes I know about the Digital 8 and minidv. I no longer have a working camcorder to capture them via firewire.
Well you are going to have to get them. Whether you are going to use it for converting to DV or not try and find a digital 8 that supports hi-8 so you don't have to get a hi-8 camcorder.

Quote:
So I would plug in a VHS deck>--analog cables--> TBC--analouge cables--> camcorder>--firewire--> PC ?

And for VHS-C is the best option:
VHS-c cassette adaptor->VHS deck>--analog cables--> TBC--analouge cables--> camcorder>--firewire--> PC ?
"Best" is subjective. That would be correct if you want to try it instead of of the 110 or some other device. You have to research the model. They don't all support analog input. If you're looking over the specs they usually refer to this as "passthrough".

It's good starting point because you need the camcorders anyway for the mini-dv and digital8. If you don't like the results you can always move onto something else. You're not getting something you don't need anyway.

There is one gotcha here. If you are in the UK forget it because the manufacturers shipped them there with that feature disabled on most or all models. It was considered a recording device and had a tax applied.
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  #5  
08-11-2015, 08:16 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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TheCoalman has the right idea. I would emphasize two very important points:

First, digital tape and analog tape are different media in many ways. Despite the fact that they might "look" alike played on a TV or PC, they don't really "work" the same way. Where DV tape is concerned, think of it as in some ways similar to modern digital cameras. DV tape and DV from a digital camera are copied 1:1 to another device, not re-recorded. There are DV transfer devices optimized for that purpose. Analog is a different story: good analog capture devices are designed for the nature of analog video. Analog playback is unsteady and noisy -- capturing analog sources to DV imbeds analog noise and defects as digital artifacts, not to mention adding lossy DV compression artifacts that also become a permanent part of the captured image.

An important part of the analog playback and capture process that you mentioned is an outboard TBC. These are frame-level tbc's that correct frame-by-frame transmission timing and help ensure the precise frame rate for audio sync and avoidance of dropped and inserted (duplicate) frames which result in stutter and other anomalies. Another essential type of tbc required by analog tape is a line-level tbc. Just as frame-by-frame play doesn't emerge from a tape player as consistently as digital devices require, the individual scanlines within frames don't emerge "on time" either. This results in ragged edges, wiggles in vertical and angular lines, often ragged, notched, and even warped side borders, and a generally noisy, disruptive playback stream. Frame and line timing require different types of tbc. Timing errors can't be corrected after capture.

Secondly: as TheCoalman rightly stated, quality is subjective. There's little that's subjective about wiggling lines, bad audio sync, or dropped frames -- these are easily observable. More subjective are perceptions of correct color rendition, "sharpness" (i.e, clarity), contrast and saturation levels, playback noise levels, and other imaging factors. Analog source varies in color balance, contrast, etc., from moment to moment. It is just as inconsistent as line and frame timing. A higher-quality player's chief attribute is that it inflicts less damage onto the signal than a cheap or poorly adjusted player. Higher quality VCRs have s-video outputs which eliminate the dot crawl and other luma-chroma noise problems that plague composite outputs (defects, by the way, that are exacerbated by capturing analog to lossy DV encoders). Ideally, analog source is captured to lossless YUY2 media using lossless compressors such as huffyuv or Lagarith to save file space (a huffyuv capture will be 1/3 the size of totally uncompressed lossless video). Lossless media is used for repair and restoration, as well as editing and applying all those fancy special effects that people like to play with in their editors. As far as initial quality goes, a lossless capture is about as close as analog will get to the 1:1 character of a DV copy -- even if the capture does contain the usual VHS tape problems, at least it won't have compression artifacts to contend with. Another advantage of lossless media is that it can be filtered, color corrected, chopped up into new working files that don't lose data thru added lossy compression stages. The only lossy encoding step is the final delivery format, which can be DVD, standard definition BluRay, mp4 or other formats and containers, progressive video for web display, or whatever you want. The original capture and working files remain intact. The working files can always be discarded later, and the lossless capture can be archived as-is or encoded to high-bitrate codecs to save space.

The best VCRs have s-video outputs and built-in line level tbc's. No, those players aren't cheap. A workaround for the absence of a line tbc would be a very few legacy DVD recorders used as pass-thru devices whose circuitry can correct line timing errors and y/c crosstalk (aka dot crawl, cross-hatching patterns, and or some level of edge buzz and color bleed). To use a pass-thru device, connect the player's output to the pass-thru's input, then connect the pass-thru's output to a capture device. Rather than record the signal, the signal is simply "played thru" the device. Many users have old DVD recorders which, even if their optical drives no longer work, can still be used for pass-thru. Recording directly to the pass-thru unit isn't a great idea -- the results would have the same or worse compression problems as analog-to-DV and would be unsuitable as an editing format.
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  #6  
08-12-2015, 02:23 AM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
DV tape and DV from a digital camera are copied 1:1 to another device, not re-recorded. There are DV transfer devices optimized for that purpose.
You don't need any kind of device, just a firewire port. It's no different than something using USB*. One thing to note is there is 4 pin and 6 pin firewire ports. Generally speaking for the computer you want a 6 pin port. Most camcorders are 4 pin with the smaller connector, you can use 4 pin to 6 pin cable. The other two pins carry power, for example with the 110 you don't need an external power supply becsue it can be powered from the firewire cable.

*Some of these camcorders have USB that will stream video however this video is typically a low quality MJPEG video.


Quote:
There's little that's subjective about wiggling lines, bad audio sync, or dropped frames --
I've done two hour captures with 110, no dropped frames and perfect audio sync. This is one of the reasons the 110 (the 100 at the time) was so popular early on. Plug it in and it just works. There is also one very cool feature that is not utilized much, you can stream from the timeline to it and it will output analog to a TV live from the timeline.

While on the topic there is no difference between the 100 and the 110 I'm aware of except one. The 100 had a very simple hack that would allow you disable the macrovision protection, if I recall you had to hold the power button down for 6 seconds or something like that.
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  #7  
08-12-2015, 02:40 AM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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Difference ADVC100 ADVC110 to.
The 100 was black and walked only with a 5 volt power supply.

The ADVC110 is white and comes with 5 Volt power supply and with the 6-pin power supply when stranded bring 5 +6 power.

Recognizes the 110 MV - .. then the red LED lights up [under the name "status"] .......... well 12 Sek.die silver button no longer lights up red until the Led.
Now rewind tape and re-capture.
But ..... as already written here in analog DV AVI is just not the cleanest.
------------------

German=
Unterschied ADVC100 zum ADVC110.
Der 100 war schwarz und ging nur mit einem 5 Volt Netzteil.

Der ADVC110 ist weiss und geht mit 5 Volt Netzteil und mit dem 6-poligen Netzteil,wenn Litze 5 +6 Strom bringen.

Erkennt der 110 -MV-..dann leuchtet die rote Led [unter der Bezeichnung "Status"]..........gut 12 Sek.die silberne Taste drücken bis die Led nicht mehr rot leuchtet.
Nun Band zurückspulen und neu capturen.
Aber wie schon hier geschrieben.....analoges direkt in DV AVI ist nicht das Sauberste.
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  #8  
08-12-2015, 01:34 PM
ShadowChaos ShadowChaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
You don't need any kind of device, just a firewire port. It's no different than something using USB*. One thing to note is there is 4 pin and 6 pin firewire ports. Generally speaking for the computer you want a 6 pin port. Most camcorders are 4 pin with the smaller connector, you can use 4 pin to 6 pin cable. The other two pins carry power, for example with the 110 you don't need an external power supply becsue it can be powered from the firewire cable.

*Some of these camcorders have USB that will stream video however this video is typically a low quality MJPEG video.




I've done two hour captures with 110, no dropped frames and perfect audio sync. This is one of the reasons the 110 (the 100 at the time) was so popular early on. Plug it in and it just works. There is also one very cool feature that is not utilized much, you can stream from the timeline to it and it will output analog to a TV live from the timeline.

While on the topic there is no difference between the 100 and the 110 I'm aware of except one. The 100 had a very simple hack that would allow you disable the macrovision protection, if I recall you had to hold the power button down for 6 seconds or something like that.
How about the 300? Is that one any good or even better?
Do I need to disable macrovision, is that an important feature?

Thanks for the info. Yes my pc has a firwire port built in and I have a 4pin to 6pin cable.
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  #9  
08-12-2015, 01:37 PM
ShadowChaos ShadowChaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
TheCoalman has the right idea. I would emphasize two very important points:

First, digital tape and analog tape are different media in many ways....
Thanks for this informative post!
I will look into capturing to huffyuv.
Around vcrs, S-video is better then a firewire transfer in terms of quality? Correct me If I am wrong, but for most of my career in DV work, I though of firewire as the closest possible to the quality of the original tape.

Are you saying, to capture video S-video when firewire is not an option (such as working with old VHS and VHS-c?)
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  #10  
08-12-2015, 03:24 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Are you saying, to capture video S-video when firewire is not an option (such as working with old VHS and VHS-c?)
s-video is far cleaner than composite.
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  #11  
08-12-2015, 04:34 PM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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Quote:
Are you saying, to capture video S-video when firewire is not an option (such as working with old VHS and VHS-c?)
I can only write for Pal.

The whole thing is quite simple.
Canopus NX Map [PCI, or PCI-E]
or if an old PC with Win XP is available this also with the Canopus DV Storm via Y / C [UYVY]

With the NX card Edius must be installed ... version. 4.xx or 5.xx or 6.08 or 7.50

With the DV Storm can be capturt with VirtualDub.

As a player for VHS-C + S-VHS-C receives a models of JVC BR-S 522/525/622 + to 822 ... but only in SP [Standard Play]

VHS-C + S-VHS-C in SP and Longplay [LP] the Panasonic NV V8000 can be used without adapter.

This setter there are also safe for NTSC.

and another thing...
S-VHS is recording format
Y / C or S-Video is transmission type.
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  #12  
08-12-2015, 04:54 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
I will look into capturing to huffyuv.
Around vcrs, S-video is better then a firewire transfer in terms of quality? Correct me If I am wrong, but for most of my career in DV work, I though of firewire as the closest possible to the quality of the original tape.
Not true. Firewire is a 1:1 copy of DV tape. Firewire with VHS/VHS-C source is not a 1:1 copy of the source, it's a lossy digital encode that's not very friendly to VHS noise, defects, and color storage matrices. And there's not much you can do with it as far as cleanup goes, you will have to decode it to lossless video for anything except plain cut-and-join -- and lossy re-encode it again in any case for a final delivery format. Don't assume that all video media are the same thing and work the same way. They aren't, and they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Are you saying, to capture video S-video when firewire is not an option (such as working with old VHS and VHS-c?)
Don't confuse "s-video" with "SVHS". Not the same. SVHS, VHS, VHS-C, Hi8, are recording formats. S-video is a type of signal transmission, just as composite and component are transmission types. S-video cable can be used for tape, DVD, SD tv broadcasts, etc. S_video circuitry can't transmit HD, it was designed before HD appeared.

[EDIT] Oops. Goldwingfahrer has already posted a correction about SVHS and s-video. I guess he types faster than I do.
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  #13  
08-12-2015, 07:23 PM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
How about the 300? Is that one any good or even better?
I believe that has a line TBC if I remember correctly, if you're getting full frame TBC which is better you don't need it.

Quote:
Do I need to disable macrovision, is that an important feature?
If you want to capture commercial VHS it's important, macrovision is the common name used for the copy protection on VHS. It's actually the company name. Also some devices are prone to falsely detecting regular errors as copy protection. Never had any issues with that with 110.

A full frame TBC will also remove it.
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  #14  
08-12-2015, 07:28 PM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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but for most of my career in DV work, I though of firewire as the closest possible to the quality of the original tape.
Any source material that is already digital like miniDV or digital8 should be transferred with firewire. It's a bit for bit copy of what is on the tape.

If you want to try converting your VHS to DV you can do that with some digital camcorders. Instead of buyin a 110 you can use the camcorder. You already have to buy camcorder if you expect to transfer mini DV or digital8 so you might as well get one you can hook a VHS deck too.

If you find the qulaity is not that great with the VHS you can move onto getting something else.
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08-12-2015, 08:39 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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theCoalman will be happy to show you how to clean up what DV compression does with your noisy VHS. Mosquito noise, buzzing edges, and clipped brights will be the toughest part. Then there are those occasional and subtle color posterizating effects, especially in skin tones......

Last edited by sanlyn; 08-12-2015 at 09:21 PM.
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  #16  
08-12-2015, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
theCoalman will be happy to show you how to clean up what DV compression does with your noisy VHS. Mosquito noise, buzzing edges, and clipped brights will be the toughest part.
And I'm the one that shows him.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
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  #17  
08-13-2015, 04:29 AM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
theCoalman will be happy to show you how to clean up what DV compression does with your noisy VHS. Mosquito noise, buzzing edges, and clipped brights will be the toughest part. Then there are those occasional and subtle color posterizating effects, especially in skin tones......
My suggestion will cost him $0 since he needs to buy camcorders anyway. If he is satisfied with the results it will save him the cost of buying a 110 or whatever device.

You consider this poor advice?

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
And I'm the one that shows him.
You're just better at it that I am and that's a special tape, I don't have the time either. I've been more than satisfied with the home movies I've captured on the 110. They look fine to me.
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08-15-2015, 12:55 AM
ShadowChaos ShadowChaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
s-video is far cleaner than composite.
Noted. I dont think there are much other options besides S-video for decent VHS from that era..

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Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I believe that has a line TBC ...
Perfect, well if I am going to invest in this, might as well get both the 300 and a good TBC

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Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Any source ....
At this point I think that the 110/300 + a really good "pro" vcr is a better choice for VHS from what I am understanding.

thecoalman, goldwing, lordsmurf and sanlyn, thank you all for weighing in, valuable info here. This is a great forum so far.

So here is my 'final' plans for this project.

HI8 = Digitize with Digital camera (probably TRV 840 if I can get one, it seems like on of the best Digital8 camcorders around). Have to buy the camcorder.. $$$

VHS/VHSc = Buy a really good S-VHS player (considering the VS10/VS10u for 1394, just incase). Either get a Canopus 300/110 (I will go for 300 if I can) and buy a good TBC box. Go S-video (is there anything better? I don't believe so..) to Canopus.

Please feel free to critique or add anything you might think I can do better with this.
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  #19  
08-15-2015, 09:20 AM
thecoalman thecoalman is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowChaos View Post
Perfect, well if I am going to invest in this, might as well get both the 300 and a good TBC
You don't need both and preferably you want the full frame TBC.

Quote:
VHS/VHSc = Buy a really good S-VHS player (considering the VS10/VS10u for 1394, just incase). Either get a Canopus 300/110 (I will go for 300 if I can) and buy a good TBC box. Go S-video (is there anything better? I don't believe so..) to Canopus.
Not sure but I think you missed my point about the passthrough ability of some camcorders. This is fundamentally the same thing a 110 does so you don't necessarily need a 110. A quick search says the TRV 840 has that feature.

You can hook your VHS deck to the camcorder and use that instead of 110 to convert to DV. Since you need to purchase the camcorder anyway give it try and see if the results are acceptable.
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  #20  
08-15-2015, 04:33 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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The ADVC300 has a Panasonic chip for line TBC but it doesn't actually correct errors, for some reason. According to some, it even introduces certain issues not present with the cheaper ADVCs. It does have the advantage of Proc Amp controls, whereas with the others and camcorder passthrough if blacks are crushed or brights are clipped you're stuck with it.

Still, I agree with the advice of buying the camcorders you need and trying them before deciding whether to throw money at a Canopus box. You might even decide you don't want to deal with the DV conversion artifacts.
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